Skill points per level - order of bonuses/penalties? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Skill points per level - order of bonuses/penalties? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sadbot
12-13-07, 02:15 PM Hi, I'd appreciate it if you guys could answer a question about skill point calculation. Please cite official material if you can. Thanks! Here's the question:

At each level you gain X skill points according to your class, adjusted by your Intelligence modifier.

You gain a minimum of 1 skill point per level (or 4 at first level), even if you have a negative Intelligence modifier. (A fighter gains +2 skill points, but has a -3 Int modifier. He still gains 1 skill point.)

It is possible to gain additional skill points from other sources (such as the additional 1 point per level as a human).

Do you first total your gain from class levels and your Int modifier (raising the number to 1 if the total would be lower), then add any bonuses? Or do you total everything at once and then raise the number to 1 if the total would be lower?

For example let us say we have a human fighter with an Int of 4 who has just reached level 2. He gains +2 skill points for being a fighter, -3 for low Int, +1 for being human. In total does he gain 2 skill points ( +2 fighter, -3 int modifier = 1 (minimum gain), then +1 for being human = +2 skill points) or does he gain 1 skill point (+2 fighter, -3 Int modifier, +1 human = 0, but minimum gain is 1)?
LSMFT
12-13-07, 02:24 PM or does he gain 1 skill point (+2 fighter, -3 Int modifier, +1 human = 0, but minimum gain is 1)?I do it that way.
Vharuck
12-13-07, 02:24 PM This is a good question, and not clearly spelled out in the rules. As such, I can see how different views on this could find justification.

That being said, I think that the Int bonus factors into skill points gained from the class, and that has a minimum of 1. The human bonus is separate. So, a human characters gains a minimum of two skill points per level (minimum 1 from class plus the bonus skill point).
UAMDB
12-13-07, 02:39 PM This is a good question, and not clearly spelled out in the rules. As such, I can see how different views on this could find justification.

That being said, I think that the Int bonus factors into skill points gained from the class, and that has a minimum of 1. The human bonus is separate. So, a human characters gains a minimum of two skill points per level (minimum 1 from class plus the bonus skill point).

I see both sides, but it does not say humans get a minimal of two points. So I would add everything, then adjust to the minimal if needed.
StevenO
12-13-07, 02:47 PM You get a minimum of one skill point from your class each level. The Int modifier is factored into that skill gain which must be at least one. Everything after that is a bonus.

Aside from the Huaman's +1 skill point each level the only other way I can think of to gain skill points outside of leveling is with a feat. I certainly hope you wouldn't take away some of the five skill points a feat slot can grant just because the character is dumb as rocks.
Hsien
12-13-07, 03:09 PM Thats how we do that.
Look at how Skills are done at first level Human for a comparison.

[(Skill + Int Mod) x 4 ] + 4 Human bonus

Bonuses fall outside the initial multiplier, and are added after the (Skill + Int Mod ) calculation is completed.
Therefore that same principle applies as additional levels or misc bonuses are acquired.
LSMFT
12-13-07, 03:12 PM You get a minimum of one skill point from your class each level. Does it actually state the source?
I think it says you get a minimum of one skill point per level without distinguishing between skill-points acquired by the class you advanced in or as a bonus from your race.

Bonuses fall outside the initial multiplier, and are added after the (Skill + Int Mod ) calculation is completed.
Therefore that same principle applies as additional levels or misc bonuses are acquired.Riiiight, that's the correct way for figuring skill-points per level.

But why does the "minimum 1" rule need to be applied inside your parentheses?

I interpret the “minimum 1 rule” as: when you add up everything, points for your class, points from your Int, points from your race, if the result is less than one, you get one.

What I see others suggesting is you add some of the sources up. But not others. Why not?
Jaxgaret
12-13-07, 03:32 PM Is this theoretical, or do you have an actual Int 4 Human PC running around in your campaign?
sadbot
12-13-07, 03:49 PM My example of the fighter with 4 Int is theoretical. I'm putting together an spreadsheet to help track character progress and I need to know what math to use for my skill point formula.

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm glad I'm not alone in my confusion on this topic. :)

I'll post the response from custserv when I hear back from them.
NoldorForce
12-13-07, 04:34 PM You get them in whichever order is most favorable.As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the creature.
sadbot
12-13-07, 04:38 PM Ah! Thanks NoldorForce.
That's a really handy quote to have for the character optimization boards ;)
Jaxgaret
12-13-07, 06:16 PM I'll post the response from custserv when I hear back from them.

Don't even bother. They're frequently wrong.

It seems that their support model is "Give them any darn answer you like, don't worry about its rules validity, just don't keep them waiting."

This has been tested by persons sending in multiple copies of essentially the same question, and getting back different separate answers.
Nom
12-13-07, 07:32 PM PH pg 62:A character gets at least 1 skill point at each new level, even if he or she has an intelligence penalty.

A human gets 1 extra skill point per level.Every semi official source I've seen applies the human bonus after resolving the Int penalty and minimum, and the way the PH is written seems to support that. If you're human, you get 1 point more than if you were not a human, regardless of Int.
risner
12-14-07, 12:07 AM I play that Humans get a minimum of 2 per level.
Salla
12-14-07, 12:40 AM I play that Humans get a minimum of 2 per level.

Which is correct.
LSMFT
12-14-07, 11:20 AM You get them in whichever order is most favorable.
Right, but you can't really follow this literally. Some discretion has to be involved.

I mean, if I were a fighter with a 10 Int, and I go to add up my skill points, I couldn't start with those I gain from Int, see that it is zero and invoke the "minimum one" rule and then add those from my class. That would be silly.

So why is it that with the racial skill point, people think that same silly thing is ok?
They add up some of the skill points, (those from Int and those from calss)
Seeing that they add up to zero or less, invoke the minimum,
Then finish adding up the rest? (The one from race.)

Doesn't it make more sense to add them all up before you decide they don't meet the minimum? On what authority do you arbitrarily decide that only two of the three numbers "count?" On what authority do you decide which two of the three number count?
Hsien
12-14-07, 12:45 PM Besides a rationale or reasonable interpretation of the guidelines and rules?

Noldoforce's response included the FAQ qoute.
Which provides the discretion and authority, if FAQ is accepted, to make the prev. stated interpretations.
LSMFT
12-14-07, 04:22 PM Besides a rationale or reasonable interpretation of the guidelines and rules?What rule are interpreting? Is it the FAQ?

But like I said before, I could use the exact same rationale to come up with something we all know is wrong, i.e. applying the “minimum 1 rule” based on the Int modifier alone, before adding the skill points from class.

It is absurd to invoke the "minimum rule" when you have yet to add the points from your class. Right? (Absurd, yes, but it is using the "order most favorable," is it not?)

So why is it less absurd to invoke that rule when you have yet to add the points from your race?

Therefore, this rule alone isn't sufficient to support the claim that for humans the minimum is two.
Hsien
12-14-07, 05:32 PM I didn't say the other interpretation ( 1 min after all mod and bonuses are calculated ) was any less rationale or reasonable...it's just different.

My original post includes my groups interpration that the bonuses fall outside of the skill + int mod calculation.
We interpret that since the bonus points fall outside of that multiplied calculation at first level that they also fall outside the 1 minimum rule.

Is that right? Maybe, maybe not...but the FAQ supports that the interpretation can be made.

Also, page 62 of PH (# 1) describes the 1 Skill point minimum and then after that, but in the same bullet, notes that Humans get an extra bonus point.
sadbot
01-04-08, 09:16 PM For those of you with faith in custserve, I got a response from them saying to apply the minimum-one rule after calculating all modifiers.
DastardlyDan
01-05-08, 07:19 PM Something to remember is that the game is going to be very rules-clunky right out of the box. I mean, the Core game is three books long, each of which is around 250-300 pages. I'd think it's safe to assume that the developers made everything that could, work the same. No where else in the game do you figure something, come up with 0 or less, then move up to a minimum of 1, and then add any bonus.

Most likely skill point total works the same as damage. You roll your weapon damage, add your strength modifier, and then if the total damage is less than 1, you deal 1 damage. No matter how many bonuses you get, you add them all up before you determine whether you're awarded a minimum or not.

For a Fighter with 1 strength using a +1 longsword:

You don't roll 1d8 and get 4, subtract 5 for abysmally low strength, get 0, default to 1, then add 1 from the weapon's enhancement bonus. Instead, you get 4(roll)-5(str mod)+1(enhancement)=0, then default to 1.

I feel that skill point totals work the same way. You get 2+Int+bonus, then default to 1 if that total is 0 or less.
Jaxgaret
01-05-08, 11:26 PM For those of you with faith in custserve

CustServ is so frequently wrong, any answer they give you is worthless.

, I got a response from them saying to apply the minimum-one rule after calculating all modifiers.

Case in point.
Zuggster
01-09-08, 02:19 PM Under 'Skill at Higher Levels', it seems to break out the "character gets at least 1 skill point at each new level, even if he/she has an intellegence penalty" from the "A human gets 1 extra skill point per level", so I would say that a human gets at least 2 points each level.

Besides, otherwise a dumb human would lose a racial advantage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sadbot 12-13-07, 02:15 PM	Hi, I'd appreciate it if you guys could answer a question about skill point calculation. Please cite official material if you can. Thanks! Here's the question: At each level you gain X skill points according to your class, adjusted by your Intelligence modifier. You gain a minimum of 1 skill point per level (or 4 at first level), even if you have a negative Intelligence modifier. (A fighter gains +2 skill points, but has a -3 Int modifier. He still gains 1 skill point.) It is possible to gain additional skill points from other sources (such as the additional 1 point per level as a human). Do you first total your gain from class levels and your Int modifier (raising the number to 1 if the total would be lower), then add any bonuses? Or do you total everything at once and then raise the number to 1 if the total would be lower? For example let us say we have a human fighter with an Int of 4 who has just reached level 2. He gains +2 skill points for being a fighter, -3 for low Int, +1 for being human. In total does he gain 2 skill points ( +2 fighter, -3 int modifier = 1 (minimum gain), then +1 for being human = +2 skill points) or does he gain 1 skill point (+2 fighter, -3 Int modifier, +1 human = 0, but minimum gain is 1)?
LSMFT 12-13-07, 02:24 PM	or does he gain 1 skill point (+2 fighter, -3 Int modifier, +1 human = 0, but minimum gain is 1)?I do it that way.
Vharuck 12-13-07, 02:24 PM	This is a good question, and not clearly spelled out in the rules. As such, I can see how different views on this could find justification. That being said, I think that the Int bonus factors into skill points gained from the class, and that has a minimum of 1. The human bonus is separate. So, a human characters gains a minimum of two skill points per level (minimum 1 from class plus the bonus skill point).
UAMDB 12-13-07, 02:39 PM	This is a good question, and not clearly spelled out in the rules. As such, I can see how different views on this could find justification. That being said, I think that the Int bonus factors into skill points gained from the class, and that has a minimum of 1. The human bonus is separate. So, a human characters gains a minimum of two skill points per level (minimum 1 from class plus the bonus skill point). I see both sides, but it does not say humans get a minimal of two points. So I would add everything, then adjust to the minimal if needed.
StevenO 12-13-07, 02:47 PM	You get a minimum of one skill point from your class each level. The Int modifier is factored into that skill gain which must be at least one. Everything after that is a bonus. Aside from the Huaman's +1 skill point each level the only other way I can think of to gain skill points outside of leveling is with a feat. I certainly hope you wouldn't take away some of the five skill points a feat slot can grant just because the character is dumb as rocks.
Hsien 12-13-07, 03:09 PM	Thats how we do that. Look at how Skills are done at first level Human for a comparison. [(Skill + Int Mod) x 4 ] + 4 Human bonus Bonuses fall outside the initial multiplier, and are added after the (Skill + Int Mod ) calculation is completed. Therefore that same principle applies as additional levels or misc bonuses are acquired.
LSMFT 12-13-07, 03:12 PM	You get a minimum of one skill point from your class each level. Does it actually state the source? I think it says you get a minimum of one skill point per level without distinguishing between skill-points acquired by the class you advanced in or as a bonus from your race. Bonuses fall outside the initial multiplier, and are added after the (Skill + Int Mod ) calculation is completed. Therefore that same principle applies as additional levels or misc bonuses are acquired.Riiiight, that's the correct way for figuring skill-points per level. But why does the "minimum 1" rule need to be applied inside your parentheses? I interpret the “minimum 1 rule” as: when you add up everything, points for your class, points from your Int, points from your race, if the result is less than one, you get one. What I see others suggesting is you add some of the sources up. But not others. Why not?
Jaxgaret 12-13-07, 03:32 PM	Is this theoretical, or do you have an actual Int 4 Human PC running around in your campaign?
sadbot 12-13-07, 03:49 PM	My example of the fighter with 4 Int is theoretical. I'm putting together an spreadsheet to help track character progress and I need to know what math to use for my skill point formula. Thanks for the responses guys. I'm glad I'm not alone in my confusion on this topic. :) I'll post the response from custserv when I hear back from them.
NoldorForce 12-13-07, 04:34 PM	You get them in whichever order is most favorable.As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the creature.
sadbot 12-13-07, 04:38 PM	Ah! Thanks NoldorForce. That's a really handy quote to have for the character optimization boards ;)
Jaxgaret 12-13-07, 06:16 PM	I'll post the response from custserv when I hear back from them. Don't even bother. They're frequently wrong. It seems that their support model is "Give them any darn answer you like, don't worry about its rules validity, just don't keep them waiting." This has been tested by persons sending in multiple copies of essentially the same question, and getting back different separate answers.
Nom 12-13-07, 07:32 PM	PH pg 62:A character gets at least 1 skill point at each new level, even if he or she has an intelligence penalty. A human gets 1 extra skill point per level.Every semi official source I've seen applies the human bonus after resolving the Int penalty and minimum, and the way the PH is written seems to support that. If you're human, you get 1 point more than if you were not a human, regardless of Int.
risner 12-14-07, 12:07 AM	I play that Humans get a minimum of 2 per level.
Salla 12-14-07, 12:40 AM	I play that Humans get a minimum of 2 per level. Which is correct.
LSMFT 12-14-07, 11:20 AM	You get them in whichever order is most favorable. Right, but you can't really follow this literally. Some discretion has to be involved. I mean, if I were a fighter with a 10 Int, and I go to add up my skill points, I couldn't start with those I gain from Int, see that it is zero and invoke the "minimum one" rule and then add those from my class. That would be silly. So why is it that with the racial skill point, people think that same silly thing is ok? They add up some of the skill points, (those from Int and those from calss) Seeing that they add up to zero or less, invoke the minimum, Then finish adding up the rest? (The one from race.) Doesn't it make more sense to add them all up before you decide they don't meet the minimum? On what authority do you arbitrarily decide that only two of the three numbers "count?" On what authority do you decide which two of the three number count?
Hsien 12-14-07, 12:45 PM	Besides a rationale or reasonable interpretation of the guidelines and rules? Noldoforce's response included the FAQ qoute. Which provides the discretion and authority, if FAQ is accepted, to make the prev. stated interpretations.
LSMFT 12-14-07, 04:22 PM	Besides a rationale or reasonable interpretation of the guidelines and rules?What rule are interpreting? Is it the FAQ? But like I said before, I could use the exact same rationale to come up with something we all know is wrong, i.e. applying the “minimum 1 rule” based on the Int modifier alone, before adding the skill points from class. It is absurd to invoke the "minimum rule" when you have yet to add the points from your class. Right? (Absurd, yes, but it is using the "order most favorable," is it not?) So why is it less absurd to invoke that rule when you have yet to add the points from your race? Therefore, this rule alone isn't sufficient to support the claim that for humans the minimum is two.
Hsien 12-14-07, 05:32 PM	I didn't say the other interpretation ( 1 min after all mod and bonuses are calculated ) was any less rationale or reasonable...it's just different. My original post includes my groups interpration that the bonuses fall outside of the skill + int mod calculation. We interpret that since the bonus points fall outside of that multiplied calculation at first level that they also fall outside the 1 minimum rule. Is that right? Maybe, maybe not...but the FAQ supports that the interpretation can be made. Also, page 62 of PH (# 1) describes the 1 Skill point minimum and then after that, but in the same bullet, notes that Humans get an extra bonus point.
sadbot 01-04-08, 09:16 PM	For those of you with faith in custserve, I got a response from them saying to apply the minimum-one rule after calculating all modifiers.
DastardlyDan 01-05-08, 07:19 PM	Something to remember is that the game is going to be very rules-clunky right out of the box. I mean, the Core game is three books long, each of which is around 250-300 pages. I'd think it's safe to assume that the developers made everything that could, work the same. No where else in the game do you figure something, come up with 0 or less, then move up to a minimum of 1, and then add any bonus. Most likely skill point total works the same as damage. You roll your weapon damage, add your strength modifier, and then if the total damage is less than 1, you deal 1 damage. No matter how many bonuses you get, you add them all up before you determine whether you're awarded a minimum or not. For a Fighter with 1 strength using a +1 longsword: You don't roll 1d8 and get 4, subtract 5 for abysmally low strength, get 0, default to 1, then add 1 from the weapon's enhancement bonus. Instead, you get 4(roll)-5(str mod)+1(enhancement)=0, then default to 1. I feel that skill point totals work the same way. You get 2+Int+bonus, then default to 1 if that total is 0 or less.
Jaxgaret 01-05-08, 11:26 PM	For those of you with faith in custserve CustServ is so frequently wrong, any answer they give you is worthless. , I got a response from them saying to apply the minimum-one rule after calculating all modifiers. Case in point.
Zuggster 01-09-08, 02:19 PM	Under 'Skill at Higher Levels', it seems to break out the "character gets at least 1 skill point at each new level, even if he/she has an intellegence penalty" from the "A human gets 1 extra skill point per level", so I would say that a human gets at least 2 points each level. Besides, otherwise a dumb human would lose a racial advantage.