Skill ranks to a familiar? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Skill ranks to a familiar? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dinendal
08-21-07, 07:52 PM Is it possible to give Use Magical Device ranks to a familiar?

I have a silver dragon wyrmling familiar and my goal is to be able to have it use scrolls or maybe wands. Is this possible?
Loki5654
08-21-07, 07:57 PM For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.
A familiar does not get skill points of its own to spend. A familiar either uses its own ranks or its masters ranks, whichever is higher.

So the answer is: If your character has ranks in UMD then so does your familiar. If you don't, they don't.
Nom
08-21-07, 11:21 PM So the answer is: If your character has ranks in UMD then so does your familiar. If you don't, they don't.Unless the base creature has UMD ranks, in which case it has ranks equal to the base (unmodified) creature's. Though I imagine that's very rare, even with Improved Familiars.
Shadowfax7
08-22-07, 06:54 AM Though I imagine that's very rare, even with Improved Familiars.Rare, or non-existent :D
Dinendal
08-22-07, 05:37 PM Is it worth having a familiar that can read scrolls? That would be a lot of skill points to burn. I think the DC check for a scroll is 20 + caster level.

Suggestions?
Loki5654
08-22-07, 05:45 PM If you want it to be a little more useful, then take a level in a class that grants UMD as a class skill.

Or resign yourself to the fact that while your familiar can cast spells from scrolls, they aren't going to be very good at it.
Fireclave
08-22-07, 05:45 PM Is it worth having a familiar that can read scrolls? That would be a lot of skill points to burn. I think the DC check for a scroll is 20 + caster level.

Suggestions?
Wands and Staves only require a straight DC 20 UMD check. Also, a Circlet of Persuasion is a cheap way to boost UMD checks.
Dinendal
09-10-07, 03:01 PM I found out silver wyrmlings have UMD as a class skill. I will definitely be maxing that out. If I read it correctly, I think they start off with 80 skill points to distribute with a MAX of 10 ranks in a particular skill.
Finarin Panjoro
09-10-07, 04:23 PM Since dragon familiars are dragons, and dragons cast spells as sorcerors, can't draconic familiars already cast arcane spells from scrolls and wands (albeit with a caster level check for scrolls)?
runestar
09-10-07, 09:09 PM Since dragon familiars are dragons, and dragons cast spells as sorcerors, can't draconic familiars already cast arcane spells from scrolls and wands (albeit with a caster level check for scrolls)?

Unlike rangers, who by virtue of having a spell list and is thus able to use spell completion items like wands at lv1-3 even though he cannot cast spells, I am not sure if this is the case for dragon wyrmlings.

This is because the way the various dragons of different age categories are represented in the MM seems to suggest they are being treated as separate creatures rather than part of the 1 same progression.

Thus, while a very young silver dragon could cast as a 1st lv sorc and thus use certain items like wands and scrolls, I am not sure if this is the same case for a wyrmling silver dragon, who cannot cast spells. I differentiate this from the case of the ranger because I tend to see it as a completely different creature from say, a very young silver dragon.
Dinendal
09-11-07, 11:57 AM If someone has an answer to this question that would greatly change the way I play this character. Please let me know your thoughts on whether a dragon familiar can cast from scrolls/wands without UMD checks.
Finarin Panjoro
09-11-07, 02:34 PM Since I brought this up I'll try to prove it.

Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells. There's no mention of age being a limiting factor it just states that dragon's know and cast arcane spells as a sorceror of the level indicated. This could indicate that they're not considered to cast as a 1st level sorceror until the appropriate age or it could indicate that like a ranger or paladin they are considered caster's before they gain the ability to actually cast spells.

Spells: Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.
A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.
A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.
This is from the entry on special abilities on Monsters. There's nothing absolutely definitive, but I'd tend to believe that a dragon is considered a sorceror regardless of age category based on the bolded sentence.

I think your familiar is already capable of doing what you're looking for. I'm dming for a character who will likely wind up with a dragon familiar once she levels up and this is how I will play it. Furthermore I will be allowing them to cast cleric spells that they have access to from wands and scrolls.
Dinendal
01-09-08, 12:18 PM Does this mean the dragon familiar can take any scroll I give her and just cast it? Even if its up to a 6th level spell?
LSMFT
01-10-08, 11:28 AM As long as the spell is on the correct list, he is able to use the item.

There are special activation rules for scrolls. The scroll has to be deciphered first. You have a high enough ability score, and you need to be of sufficient caster-level or make a caster-level check. The dragon wouldn't be exempt from any of these, but yeah, he could use the scroll.
elonin
01-10-08, 06:55 PM I've got a related question. I'm playing toward wiz5, beguiller1, ultimate magus 10. Since only the wizard levels grant the familiar it looks like i'm stuck with a 5th level familiar. Are there any feats that will advance the familiars usefullness?
runestar
01-10-08, 09:14 PM The obtain familiar feat from CA apparently bases your familiar's ability off your total spellcaster lv.
elonin
01-10-08, 09:43 PM Thanks
Malicea
01-12-08, 03:38 AM I've got a related question. I'm playing toward wiz5, beguiller1, ultimate magus 10. Since only the wizard levels grant the familiar it looks like i'm stuck with a 5th level familiar. Are there any feats that will advance the familiars usefullness?

If you're planning to take the Obtain Familiar feat, it's worthwhile trading away the familar at first level for some alternate class feature also, since you'll get it back and count the wizard levels again once you take the feat.
elonin
01-12-08, 10:01 AM Great idea. One thought, would UM count as an arcane casting class for purposes of this feat?
Captain_Kobold
01-12-08, 10:49 AM If someone has an answer to this question that would greatly change the way I play this character. Please let me know your thoughts on whether a dragon familiar can cast from scrolls/wands without UMD checks.

Official answer: (From Draconomicon)
A dragon that has not yet grown into its spellcasting ability cannot use spell trigger or spell completion items such as wands, staffs, or scrolls.

Nothing to stop them hotwiring them with UMD though. A silver Dragon Wrymling has UMD as a class skill and lots of skill points.

Unofficial answer:
Ask your DM if he will houserule it in.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dinendal 08-21-07, 07:52 PM	Is it possible to give Use Magical Device ranks to a familiar? I have a silver dragon wyrmling familiar and my goal is to be able to have it use scrolls or maybe wands. Is this possible?
Loki5654 08-21-07, 07:57 PM	For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use. A familiar does not get skill points of its own to spend. A familiar either uses its own ranks or its masters ranks, whichever is higher. So the answer is: If your character has ranks in UMD then so does your familiar. If you don't, they don't.
Nom 08-21-07, 11:21 PM	So the answer is: If your character has ranks in UMD then so does your familiar. If you don't, they don't.Unless the base creature has UMD ranks, in which case it has ranks equal to the base (unmodified) creature's. Though I imagine that's very rare, even with Improved Familiars.
Shadowfax7 08-22-07, 06:54 AM	Though I imagine that's very rare, even with Improved Familiars.Rare, or non-existent :D
Dinendal 08-22-07, 05:37 PM	Is it worth having a familiar that can read scrolls? That would be a lot of skill points to burn. I think the DC check for a scroll is 20 + caster level. Suggestions?
Loki5654 08-22-07, 05:45 PM	If you want it to be a little more useful, then take a level in a class that grants UMD as a class skill. Or resign yourself to the fact that while your familiar can cast spells from scrolls, they aren't going to be very good at it.
Fireclave 08-22-07, 05:45 PM	Is it worth having a familiar that can read scrolls? That would be a lot of skill points to burn. I think the DC check for a scroll is 20 + caster level. Suggestions? Wands and Staves only require a straight DC 20 UMD check. Also, a Circlet of Persuasion is a cheap way to boost UMD checks.
Dinendal 09-10-07, 03:01 PM	I found out silver wyrmlings have UMD as a class skill. I will definitely be maxing that out. If I read it correctly, I think they start off with 80 skill points to distribute with a MAX of 10 ranks in a particular skill.
Finarin Panjoro 09-10-07, 04:23 PM	Since dragon familiars are dragons, and dragons cast spells as sorcerors, can't draconic familiars already cast arcane spells from scrolls and wands (albeit with a caster level check for scrolls)?
runestar 09-10-07, 09:09 PM	Since dragon familiars are dragons, and dragons cast spells as sorcerors, can't draconic familiars already cast arcane spells from scrolls and wands (albeit with a caster level check for scrolls)? Unlike rangers, who by virtue of having a spell list and is thus able to use spell completion items like wands at lv1-3 even though he cannot cast spells, I am not sure if this is the case for dragon wyrmlings. This is because the way the various dragons of different age categories are represented in the MM seems to suggest they are being treated as separate creatures rather than part of the 1 same progression. Thus, while a very young silver dragon could cast as a 1st lv sorc and thus use certain items like wands and scrolls, I am not sure if this is the same case for a wyrmling silver dragon, who cannot cast spells. I differentiate this from the case of the ranger because I tend to see it as a completely different creature from say, a very young silver dragon.
Dinendal 09-11-07, 11:57 AM	If someone has an answer to this question that would greatly change the way I play this character. Please let me know your thoughts on whether a dragon familiar can cast from scrolls/wands without UMD checks.
Finarin Panjoro 09-11-07, 02:34 PM	Since I brought this up I'll try to prove it. Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells. There's no mention of age being a limiting factor it just states that dragon's know and cast arcane spells as a sorceror of the level indicated. This could indicate that they're not considered to cast as a 1st level sorceror until the appropriate age or it could indicate that like a ranger or paladin they are considered caster's before they gain the ability to actually cast spells. Spells: Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows. A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components. A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class. This is from the entry on special abilities on Monsters. There's nothing absolutely definitive, but I'd tend to believe that a dragon is considered a sorceror regardless of age category based on the bolded sentence. I think your familiar is already capable of doing what you're looking for. I'm dming for a character who will likely wind up with a dragon familiar once she levels up and this is how I will play it. Furthermore I will be allowing them to cast cleric spells that they have access to from wands and scrolls.
Dinendal 01-09-08, 12:18 PM	Does this mean the dragon familiar can take any scroll I give her and just cast it? Even if its up to a 6th level spell?
LSMFT 01-10-08, 11:28 AM	As long as the spell is on the correct list, he is able to use the item. There are special activation rules for scrolls. The scroll has to be deciphered first. You have a high enough ability score, and you need to be of sufficient caster-level or make a caster-level check. The dragon wouldn't be exempt from any of these, but yeah, he could use the scroll.
elonin 01-10-08, 06:55 PM	I've got a related question. I'm playing toward wiz5, beguiller1, ultimate magus 10. Since only the wizard levels grant the familiar it looks like i'm stuck with a 5th level familiar. Are there any feats that will advance the familiars usefullness?
runestar 01-10-08, 09:14 PM	The obtain familiar feat from CA apparently bases your familiar's ability off your total spellcaster lv.
elonin 01-10-08, 09:43 PM	Thanks
Malicea 01-12-08, 03:38 AM	I've got a related question. I'm playing toward wiz5, beguiller1, ultimate magus 10. Since only the wizard levels grant the familiar it looks like i'm stuck with a 5th level familiar. Are there any feats that will advance the familiars usefullness? If you're planning to take the Obtain Familiar feat, it's worthwhile trading away the familar at first level for some alternate class feature also, since you'll get it back and count the wizard levels again once you take the feat.
elonin 01-12-08, 10:01 AM	Great idea. One thought, would UM count as an arcane casting class for purposes of this feat?
Captain_Kobold 01-12-08, 10:49 AM	If someone has an answer to this question that would greatly change the way I play this character. Please let me know your thoughts on whether a dragon familiar can cast from scrolls/wands without UMD checks. Official answer: (From Draconomicon) A dragon that has not yet grown into its spellcasting ability cannot use spell trigger or spell completion items such as wands, staffs, or scrolls. Nothing to stop them hotwiring them with UMD though. A silver Dragon Wrymling has UMD as a class skill and lots of skill points. Unofficial answer: Ask your DM if he will houserule it in.