Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hapycamper 03-27-07, 02:34 AM	OK, so it isn't quite clear to me what a Skill Rank officially is... I think I have it correct, but want it confirmed... If I spend skill points on a skill, it increases in rank (either 1 or 0.5 points). However, most skills also have a bonus associated with a stat, like Crafting and INT... Say I spend 3 points on Knowledge: Arcana (a class skill) and have an INT of 14 (for a +2). That gives me a total +5 to any Knowledge: Aracana rolls. Here's where its less clear. I get a +2 circumstance bonus on many of my Spellcraft rolls if I have 5 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana. Do I have 5 ranks? Or do I just have a +5 bonus? As I understand it, I think I had to have actually spent 5 pts (and thus have a total of +7 to Knowledge: Arcana) in order to get my +2 synergy bonus on Spellcraft... I assume that it is also true for qualifying for Prestige classes? If I need 7 ranks in Acrobatics to qualify for some funky prestige class, I need to have spent 7 points (if its a class skill) in Acrobatics, not just spend 5 points and add in my +2 bonus due to Dex.... Is this right? (ie. Ranks are what you buy, and stat bonuses aren't a part of your "Skill Rank" when it is mentioned, they're only added to your skill roll.) Thanks (in advance) for clarifying this
Pandaemoni 03-27-07, 02:40 AM	You just have a +5 bonus, but only 3 ranks. Ranks are what you buy with skill points, and things like synergy bonuses and meeting requirements for PrCs are based on *that* number, rather than your total bonus in a given skill.
Frugal 03-27-07, 10:22 AM	You just have a +5 bonus, but only 3 ranks. Ranks are what you buy with skill points, and things like synergy bonuses and meeting requirements for PrCs are based on *that* number, rather than your total bonus in a given skill. Yep, it's a little odd because you'd think that entry into a PrC would just be based on how good you are in the skill, not in the number of points put into it but it's important for balance reasons. If you say 8 ranks in a skill you know they can't enter the class until level 6 (max ranks for a class skill = HD + 3 so at 5th level you can get it up to 8 ranks, then enter the PrC at 6th level).
BW0222 03-27-07, 11:09 AM	Frugal, Yep, it's a little odd because you'd think that entry into a PrC would just be based on how good you are in the skill, not in the number of points put into it but it's important for balance reasons. If you say 8 ranks in a skill you know they can't enter the class until level 6 (max ranks for a class skill = HD + 3 so at 5th level you can get it up to 8 ranks, then enter the PrC at 6th level). Actually, it isn't that odd that they require ranks. A better way to think of it is that entry into a PrC depends on how well trained you are at a skill. Ranks represent formal and/or informal training, while other bonuses just represent a knack, natural ability, tallent, possibly a background, etc. Imagine that you have an PrC requiring 8 ranks in spot. You have two appliciants - a 5th-level rogue with 8 ranks and no other bonuses, and a 1st-level elven wizard with 1 rank, +4 (wisdom), +2 familiar (alertness), and +2 elf. Both are +9. However, the instructors says something like "Name with three common methods of concealment ourdoors and tell me how you would counter each." Now the rogue has training in it and he might say "Humm.... in heavy vegetation, I look for unusual movement in bushes and grasses particularly those moving against the wind." while the elf just says "Humm... I don't know, I'm just good at seeing things." The instructor might also just ask "Who have you studied under, what types of training on locating hiding foes have you received, and what types of jobs have you done requiring this skill?" Rogue might answer, "Three years with Master Finch in the streets of Nyran doing a lot of guard duty, patrolling the squares looking for rival pickpockets working our area, and I worked at a ratter as a kid. Does that count?" The elf would just be "Well... nothing really. I didn't even do a lot of hunting." i.e. there is a difference between formal/informal training and just using the skill. One can easily test for one without the other. One knowledge, craft, profession, and many other skills examples become extremely clear. Kind of like applying for college today. You can be smart, have studied a ton on your own, be a child prodogy, etc. but all they do is ask what marks you got in previous schooling. In few cases do they have formal entrance exams for 'exceptional' students and even then they test book knowledge rather than practical usage.
Frugal 03-27-07, 11:34 AM	A better way to think of it is that entry into a PrC depends on how well trained you are at a skill. Ranks represent formal and/or informal training, while other bonuses just represent a knack, natural ability, tallent, possibly a background, etc. I think a lot has to do with how you handle PrC's, for those that represent entry into an organisation, or special training from an organisation (the entry might have happened a few levels earlier but the character was still at the "novice" stage). In those types of situations it definitely makes sense that certain training needs to be completed. There are several PrC's though where this makes less sense, either due to the lack of an organisation or the more chaotic (as in less regimented) nature of those that would be providing the training. Some PrC's can even just be more of a situation of specialisation in which case it makes less sense. That's not to say that I don't think the system makes sense from a balance perspective, I'm just saying it doesn't always make sense from an in-game one. But I certainly won't be lifting that requirement and go by just straight bonus any time soon.
jadehawk 03-27-07, 03:28 PM	Sure you could argue both ways that judging prerequisites is better based on ranks or pure ability. And actually in reality different things may actually be better to base on ranks while others on ability. For the most part feats, prestige classes, and the likes are based on ranks just to manage access so that particular characters can't get in until the design of the feat or prestige class (or whatever) is balanced for them. If you were to get a particular feat too early because of an oddly templated character (or a generous DM or some other means), the whole DND world may shift out of alignment. Up would be down, left would be right, magic would bypass silver damage reduction...anarchy I tell you...anarchy
Frugal 03-27-07, 03:34 PM	For the most part feats, prestige classes, and the likes are based on ranks just to manage access so that particular characters can't get in until the design of the feat or prestige class (or whatever) is balanced for them. If you were to get a particular feat too early because of an oddly templated character (or a generous DM or some other means), the whole DND world may shift out of alignment. Up would be down, left would be right, magic would bypass silver damage reduction...anarchy I tell you...anarchy Well maybe not quite that bad but there definitely seems to be a general rule of thumb that PrC's shouldn't be up for grabs until around level 5 or 6 at least. And obviously, the power of the abilities granted has been balanced against that assumption.
WinterPsionic 03-27-07, 07:19 PM	Looking at the 3.5 character sheets should make this pretty clear... Total Skill Mod = Skill Associated Attribute Modifer + Skill Ranks + Additional Modifiers Your speaking directly to Ranks which are only linked to Skill Points spent.
Hapycamper 03-27-07, 11:49 PM	Thanks for the comments. It is as I thought. The only reason I thought I might check is that I've seen an occasional reference to a skill check as being roll a d20 and add your skill rank. (Rather than roll d20 and add your skill rank and additonal bonuses, etc...) However, that may not have even been an "official" reference, I can't recall now...
WinterPsionic 03-28-07, 12:38 AM	Any official mentioned should be a d20 + your skill modifier per PHB 61.