Skills and Automatic Failure [Archive] - Wizards Community

Skills and Automatic Failure [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hendel
03-14-07, 12:56 AM I know this seems like a very basic question, but is there automatic failure on a roll of a natural 1 for skill checks?

Under Skill Checks on page 63 of the PHB it clearly states, "a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure."

In my group, some have said that they saw a Sage Advice or errata or FAQ that said that there are times when skill checks would automatically fail when you roll a natural 1. They say these times are when you roll versus a set DC. They say that opposed skill checks do not automatically fail.

Are the right? Is there something out there that contradicts the PHB?
MystErikEry
03-14-07, 03:55 AM By RAW, only saves and attack rolls can be automatically failed/succeeded. It says this in the section on "automatic success and failure", if I recall correct...

Anything else would be a suggested house rule.
wizarddog
03-14-07, 06:45 AM DMG has a optional rules for assigning Critical success and failures to (correct me if I am wrong) skill checks.

I do find house rules regarding this to be more entertaining.:)

wizarddog
runestar
03-14-07, 06:48 AM Tell that to the surgeon performing surgery on you...:D
ShinAkuma2
03-14-07, 12:25 PM In short, your friends are knuckleheads. There has been no such errata.
Nezkrul
03-14-07, 12:29 PM i do not find the critical failure rules on skill checks to be entertaining. all it does is add negativity to something trivial for skilled characters. Automatic success is nice, but it is in no way a balancing factor to rule 0 for the dm to screw the player when he rolls a 1, and couldn't fail if the houserule weren't in place.
WinterPsionic
03-14-07, 12:42 PM Depending on the DM, an auto failure on a 1 for certain checks make since, off the top of my head I can recall this applying to, Open Lock, Disable Device, Concentration(this one was pretty funny), and I think...it was Bluff...(this is based on Houserules in previous campaigns)

It's really situational and by RAW it's an opional rule set.
RodinGates
03-14-07, 01:10 PM Automatic success is nice, but it is in no way a balancing factor to rule 0 for the dm to screw the player when he rolls a 1, and couldn't fail if the houserule weren't in place.

In our campaign we keep the houserule of automatic failure on a roll of 1. To me it does make sense because we all screw up now and then no matter how skilled we are. Case in point, we walk just about every day of our lives but every now and then your toe catches that slight inclination on the sidewalk and you take a stumble forward. To me the natural 1 on skill checks is that slight chance of failure that may or may not be your fault but still happens.

After all, when you get to the higher levels it gets kinda dull making skill checks if you know you can't fail. To each his own though.
paladin2019
03-14-07, 03:04 PM The problem is the frequency. Do you stumble every 20th time you walk somewhere?
Schmendrick
03-14-07, 03:15 PM IIRC the only core failure-on-a-1 skill is Use Magic Device.
StevenO
03-14-07, 06:43 PM Tell that to the surgeon performing surgery on you...:D
The real life surgeon may not have enough skill ranks to actually handle the DC of the surgery. You can also consider that although a real surgery's DC could be estimated it may not be exactly right as unknown factors may increase it beyond the skill of the surgeon.

There is no Auto-failure or Auto-success in skill checks. The big problem with them is that the frequency of such rolls would totally throw things off. Besides, having auto-failure/success goes directly against the take 20 rule which I highly recommend for most situations. If a natural 20 is always successful a typical five year old could easily get luckly and break into a typical bank vault with nothing more than a pencil.
ShinAkuma2
03-14-07, 08:09 PM IIRC the only core failure-on-a-1 skill is Use Magic Device.

You do not remember correctly.

Perhaps you are confused because there are consquences if you happen to roll a one AND you fail the check. It's not automatic.
Shaftiel
03-14-07, 10:06 PM The problem is the frequency. Do you stumble every 20th time you walk somewhere?

I managed to convince a group I played with to stop using the natural 1 = failure houserule because 1) It stinks for skill monkeys, especially at high levels, and 2) It would kill all the commoners in the world. For the first point, imagine the 16th-level ranger with stealth gear and +35 bonuses to Hide and Move Silently. Sneaking, in particular, is a good example because you have to roll so much... are you really going to have him fail to sneak past a 0-level commoner every 10th attempt?

The good news is that the commoner would probably already be dead, because every time he climbs a tree or ladder, or goes to walk around on a roof, he has a 1/20 chance of falling to his death.

Makes no sense at all.

-Shaftiel
runestar
03-14-07, 10:21 PM The real life surgeon may not have enough skill ranks to actually handle the DC of the surgery. You can also consider that although a real surgery's DC could be estimated it may not be exactly right as unknown factors may increase it beyond the skill of the surgeon.
I was referring to extremely routine surgery like tooth extraction and the like. Any skilled doctor worth his salt should be able to handle them on a regular basis without fear or risk of screwing up, however bad he rolls. I shudder to imagine to consequences of him failing 1 out of every 20 times...:weep:
StevenO
03-14-07, 11:45 PM That's true enough runestar. I am totally against auto-success/failure with skill checks but was pointing out that things can go wrong. Of course those failures should be the result of a low roll and a long list of things reducing your actual result (fatigue) while increasing the DC (complications) at the same time.

As routine as some procedures are even a skilled operator may have a failure at some point. Of course the odds of a failure are probably less than 1/8000 which would be three consecutive natural 1s on a d20. Maybe four natural ones could be a minor failure with the 5th or 6th being a critical failure. An auto-success should be just as hard as a critical failure or harder as some things are just beyond the ability to perform.
wizarddog
03-15-07, 12:45 AM i do not find the critical failure rules on skill checks to be entertaining.

What I meant (though I didn't expand) is that they may introduce curve balls into the situation including advantages or disadvantage as moment of fate.

A Character failing a Disguise roll may suddenly be recognized by someone in there past walking by and begins a conversation causing the characetr to roleplay a new situation. In fact-they may be more sucessful In the end result. It adds to more intense roleplay. On a 1 of a open lock role I had the pick locks get stuck in the door and the rogue had to pull them out.

On natural 20's I gave extra effect to the characters result like when he bluffed to a bunch of drunk sailors (Failing miserably on their sense motive) they felt sorry for him and threw him some copper pieces.

As long as the players enjoy the dumb luck factor in the game it can add to the "entertainment". Otherwise take 10 or 20 that's what those rulkes are for. :P

wizarddog
Dheran
03-15-07, 02:57 PM I know this seems like a very basic question, but is there automatic failure on a roll of a natural 1 for skill checks? As others have pointed out, the answer is: no. However, there is an automatic failure for skill checks if you can't make the required DC on a natural 20.
FrostHammer
03-15-07, 03:13 PM I'm in the camp of "1 means -10, and 20 reroll and add together"

The system I'd use is this.

n = total dice roll
d = current dice roll

[start of dice roll]
int n;
int d = random_number(1, 20);

if (d==1)
n = -10; //if you rolled a 1, you did badly and that's the end of rolling
else
n = d; //otherwise, you were fine.

while(d==20) { //if you rolled a 20, you did really well and get to roll again!
d = random_number(1, 20);
n = n + d; //you add the old and new results together.
//if you get another 20,then roll yet again until you don't roll a 20.
}
DarkRhystar
03-15-07, 03:22 PM The system I'd use is this.

Your code block gets a C+. :)

PS: Automatic Success/Failure is baggage the skill system doesn't need.
Nairb45335
03-15-07, 04:10 PM In our Games a roll of 1 becomes a -10 then you add your skill score so if you have a skill modifier of 15 and roll a one your effective modifier is 5.

On the reverse side a natural 20 is treated as a 30 plus the skill modifier.

Narib 45335
FrostHammer
03-15-07, 05:20 PM Your code block gets a C+. :)

PS: Automatic Success/Failure is baggage the skill system doesn't need.

Don't you mean it gets a C++? :p
jadehawk
03-15-07, 05:35 PM I was referring to extremely routine surgery like tooth extraction and the like. Any skilled doctor worth his salt should be able to handle them on a regular basis without fear or risk of screwing up, however bad he rolls. I shudder to imagine to consequences of him failing 1 out of every 20 times...:weep:

take 10?
warbird106
03-28-07, 09:10 PM Yeah this stumps me too... I get a +14 on craft checks, and i was making a spiked chain for our wizard. I got a 1, and this means i got a 15. The craft description says that if you fail by 4 or less, you make no progress. If you fail by 5 or more, you mess up the item and must pay half the items raw material cost again. Even if i supposedly fail on a roll of 1 no matter what (which is what they said when it happened), which happens? Do i make no progress, or do i mess up? Help me!!!!

Edit: Check of Exotic Weapon is 18.
Schmendrick
03-28-07, 09:31 PM You failed by 4 or less.

When your check becomes +17, and you are houseruling that a natural 1 is failure, you have still "failed by 4 or less" and do not ruin the materials.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hendel 03-14-07, 12:56 AM	I know this seems like a very basic question, but is there automatic failure on a roll of a natural 1 for skill checks? Under Skill Checks on page 63 of the PHB it clearly states, "a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure." In my group, some have said that they saw a Sage Advice or errata or FAQ that said that there are times when skill checks would automatically fail when you roll a natural 1. They say these times are when you roll versus a set DC. They say that opposed skill checks do not automatically fail. Are the right? Is there something out there that contradicts the PHB?
MystErikEry 03-14-07, 03:55 AM	By RAW, only saves and attack rolls can be automatically failed/succeeded. It says this in the section on "automatic success and failure", if I recall correct... Anything else would be a suggested house rule.
wizarddog 03-14-07, 06:45 AM	DMG has a optional rules for assigning Critical success and failures to (correct me if I am wrong) skill checks. I do find house rules regarding this to be more entertaining.:) wizarddog
runestar 03-14-07, 06:48 AM	Tell that to the surgeon performing surgery on you...:D
ShinAkuma2 03-14-07, 12:25 PM	In short, your friends are knuckleheads. There has been no such errata.
Nezkrul 03-14-07, 12:29 PM	i do not find the critical failure rules on skill checks to be entertaining. all it does is add negativity to something trivial for skilled characters. Automatic success is nice, but it is in no way a balancing factor to rule 0 for the dm to screw the player when he rolls a 1, and couldn't fail if the houserule weren't in place.
WinterPsionic 03-14-07, 12:42 PM	Depending on the DM, an auto failure on a 1 for certain checks make since, off the top of my head I can recall this applying to, Open Lock, Disable Device, Concentration(this one was pretty funny), and I think...it was Bluff...(this is based on Houserules in previous campaigns) It's really situational and by RAW it's an opional rule set.
RodinGates 03-14-07, 01:10 PM	Automatic success is nice, but it is in no way a balancing factor to rule 0 for the dm to screw the player when he rolls a 1, and couldn't fail if the houserule weren't in place. In our campaign we keep the houserule of automatic failure on a roll of 1. To me it does make sense because we all screw up now and then no matter how skilled we are. Case in point, we walk just about every day of our lives but every now and then your toe catches that slight inclination on the sidewalk and you take a stumble forward. To me the natural 1 on skill checks is that slight chance of failure that may or may not be your fault but still happens. After all, when you get to the higher levels it gets kinda dull making skill checks if you know you can't fail. To each his own though.
paladin2019 03-14-07, 03:04 PM	The problem is the frequency. Do you stumble every 20th time you walk somewhere?
Schmendrick 03-14-07, 03:15 PM	IIRC the only core failure-on-a-1 skill is Use Magic Device.
StevenO 03-14-07, 06:43 PM	Tell that to the surgeon performing surgery on you...:D The real life surgeon may not have enough skill ranks to actually handle the DC of the surgery. You can also consider that although a real surgery's DC could be estimated it may not be exactly right as unknown factors may increase it beyond the skill of the surgeon. There is no Auto-failure or Auto-success in skill checks. The big problem with them is that the frequency of such rolls would totally throw things off. Besides, having auto-failure/success goes directly against the take 20 rule which I highly recommend for most situations. If a natural 20 is always successful a typical five year old could easily get luckly and break into a typical bank vault with nothing more than a pencil.
ShinAkuma2 03-14-07, 08:09 PM	IIRC the only core failure-on-a-1 skill is Use Magic Device. You do not remember correctly. Perhaps you are confused because there are consquences if you happen to roll a one AND you fail the check. It's not automatic.
Shaftiel 03-14-07, 10:06 PM	The problem is the frequency. Do you stumble every 20th time you walk somewhere? I managed to convince a group I played with to stop using the natural 1 = failure houserule because 1) It stinks for skill monkeys, especially at high levels, and 2) It would kill all the commoners in the world. For the first point, imagine the 16th-level ranger with stealth gear and +35 bonuses to Hide and Move Silently. Sneaking, in particular, is a good example because you have to roll so much... are you really going to have him fail to sneak past a 0-level commoner every 10th attempt? The good news is that the commoner would probably already be dead, because every time he climbs a tree or ladder, or goes to walk around on a roof, he has a 1/20 chance of falling to his death. Makes no sense at all. -Shaftiel
runestar 03-14-07, 10:21 PM	The real life surgeon may not have enough skill ranks to actually handle the DC of the surgery. You can also consider that although a real surgery's DC could be estimated it may not be exactly right as unknown factors may increase it beyond the skill of the surgeon. I was referring to extremely routine surgery like tooth extraction and the like. Any skilled doctor worth his salt should be able to handle them on a regular basis without fear or risk of screwing up, however bad he rolls. I shudder to imagine to consequences of him failing 1 out of every 20 times...:weep:
StevenO 03-14-07, 11:45 PM	That's true enough runestar. I am totally against auto-success/failure with skill checks but was pointing out that things can go wrong. Of course those failures should be the result of a low roll and a long list of things reducing your actual result (fatigue) while increasing the DC (complications) at the same time. As routine as some procedures are even a skilled operator may have a failure at some point. Of course the odds of a failure are probably less than 1/8000 which would be three consecutive natural 1s on a d20. Maybe four natural ones could be a minor failure with the 5th or 6th being a critical failure. An auto-success should be just as hard as a critical failure or harder as some things are just beyond the ability to perform.
wizarddog 03-15-07, 12:45 AM	i do not find the critical failure rules on skill checks to be entertaining. What I meant (though I didn't expand) is that they may introduce curve balls into the situation including advantages or disadvantage as moment of fate. A Character failing a Disguise roll may suddenly be recognized by someone in there past walking by and begins a conversation causing the characetr to roleplay a new situation. In fact-they may be more sucessful In the end result. It adds to more intense roleplay. On a 1 of a open lock role I had the pick locks get stuck in the door and the rogue had to pull them out. On natural 20's I gave extra effect to the characters result like when he bluffed to a bunch of drunk sailors (Failing miserably on their sense motive) they felt sorry for him and threw him some copper pieces. As long as the players enjoy the dumb luck factor in the game it can add to the "entertainment". Otherwise take 10 or 20 that's what those rulkes are for. :P wizarddog
Dheran 03-15-07, 02:57 PM	I know this seems like a very basic question, but is there automatic failure on a roll of a natural 1 for skill checks? As others have pointed out, the answer is: no. However, there is an automatic failure for skill checks if you can't make the required DC on a natural 20.
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 03:13 PM	I'm in the camp of "1 means -10, and 20 reroll and add together" The system I'd use is this. n = total dice roll d = current dice roll [start of dice roll] int n; int d = random_number(1, 20); if (d==1) n = -10; //if you rolled a 1, you did badly and that's the end of rolling else n = d; //otherwise, you were fine. while(d==20) { //if you rolled a 20, you did really well and get to roll again! d = random_number(1, 20); n = n + d; //you add the old and new results together. //if you get another 20,then roll yet again until you don't roll a 20. }
DarkRhystar 03-15-07, 03:22 PM	The system I'd use is this. Your code block gets a C+. :) PS: Automatic Success/Failure is baggage the skill system doesn't need.
Nairb45335 03-15-07, 04:10 PM	In our Games a roll of 1 becomes a -10 then you add your skill score so if you have a skill modifier of 15 and roll a one your effective modifier is 5. On the reverse side a natural 20 is treated as a 30 plus the skill modifier. Narib 45335
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 05:20 PM	Your code block gets a C+. :) PS: Automatic Success/Failure is baggage the skill system doesn't need. Don't you mean it gets a C++? :p
jadehawk 03-15-07, 05:35 PM	I was referring to extremely routine surgery like tooth extraction and the like. Any skilled doctor worth his salt should be able to handle them on a regular basis without fear or risk of screwing up, however bad he rolls. I shudder to imagine to consequences of him failing 1 out of every 20 times...:weep: take 10?
warbird106 03-28-07, 09:10 PM	Yeah this stumps me too... I get a +14 on craft checks, and i was making a spiked chain for our wizard. I got a 1, and this means i got a 15. The craft description says that if you fail by 4 or less, you make no progress. If you fail by 5 or more, you mess up the item and must pay half the items raw material cost again. Even if i supposedly fail on a roll of 1 no matter what (which is what they said when it happened), which happens? Do i make no progress, or do i mess up? Help me!!!! Edit: Check of Exotic Weapon is 18.
Schmendrick 03-28-07, 09:31 PM	You failed by 4 or less. When your check becomes +17, and you are houseruling that a natural 1 is failure, you have still "failed by 4 or less" and do not ruin the materials.