Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tchacotaa 12-30-07, 04:07 PM	I have two questions about the Scout Skirmish feat. It states that a scout relies on mobility to do extra damage. The scout must move at least 10' to get the extra damage and AC bonus. My questions are: 1. Is the scout restricted to only one attack per round because he is moving more than 5', or does the skirmish feat allow the scout to use multiple attacks per round at highe enough level while skirmishing? 2. How about Attacks of Oppurtunity? Certainly if he moves 10' per round for the skirmish bonuses, then he could be moving in and out of threatened squares, incuring AoO. (unless he around the opponent going from one threatend square to another) My reason for asking is that my character is a lvl 7 Ranger/ 2 Scout with Two weapon fighting, so i have multiple attacks per round. The description for Skirmish does not specificaly state either. Maybe I just want it to read a certain way, but if it only applies as one attack per round, or does not protect against AoO's then it is only useful when entering combat and the Scout would only bennfit from the damage and AC bonuses just once during a combat with a specific foe. To me that is not worth the cost of the feats. Part of the reason i took the Scout class was to be able to use the Skirmish feat constantly during combat. The damage and AC bonuses work well for someone who is restricted to light armor. I may be way off base with this, but i would appreciate any input on it. Thanks.
Salla 12-30-07, 04:23 PM	I have two questions about the Scout Skirmish feat. It states that a scout relies on mobility to do extra damage. The scout must move at least 10' to get the extra damage and AC bonus. My questions are: 1. Is the scout restricted to only one attack per round because he is moving more than 5', or does the skirmish feat allow the scout to use multiple attacks per round at highe enough level while skirmishing? You're subject to the same limitations as normal while moving. Since you've taken more than a 5' step (unless you've somehow acquired the ability to take a 10' step), moving 10' qualifies as a Move Action, leaving you a Standard action to use to attack with. If you can make Multiple Attacks as a standard action for whatever reason (the Greater Manyshot feat works well here), then good, if not, you get one shot. 2. How about Attacks of Oppurtunity? Certainly if he moves 10' per round for the skirmish bonuses, then he could be moving in and out of threatened squares, incuring AoO. (unless he around the opponent going from one threatend square to another) This is why Tumble is on the Scout skill list. You use Tumble to avoid AoOs while moving around to skirmish (or bypass the middleman and get Spring Attack). My reason for asking is that my character is a lvl 7 Ranger/ 2 Scout with Two weapon fighting, so i have multiple attacks per round. The description for Skirmish does not specificaly state either. Maybe I just want it to read a certain way, but if it only applies as one attack per round, or does not protect against AoO's then it is only useful when entering combat and the Scout would only bennfit from the damage and AC bonuses just once during a combat with a specific foe. To me that is not worth the cost of the feats. Part of the reason i took the Scout class was to be able to use the Skirmish feat constantly during combat. The damage and AC bonuses work well for someone who is restricted to light armor. I may be way off base with this, but i would appreciate any input on it. Thanks. TWF and Scout don't work so well together; the only feat I'm aware of that lets you swing with two weapons as a Standard action also specifies that you only get precision damage once. I invite you to look at the Scout's Handbook: (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=584572) which will give you some insight into the ups and downs of the class. :)
Paladin's Pride 12-30-07, 04:29 PM	You are correct on both instances concerning the skirmish ability. Since you must move 10 feet to use the ability, you cannot normally make a full attack while using it. You are also correct that skirmish in no way mitigates attacks of opportunity, so you may provoke alot of them if you attempt to use skirmish in melee. Spring Attack or ranks in tumble are a good investment for a melee scout. Unfortunately, this does mean that skirmish does not synergize well with a two-weapon fighting ranger, even though it would seem like a scout and ranger would synergize well thematically. You would be better off taking rogue levels and using sneak attack, which works well with two-weapon fighting. Another option would be to take the dervish prestige class (complete warrior, pg. 25) which allows you to move and take a full attack a few times per day, thus allowing you to skirmish while taking a full attack. Hope that helps!
tchacotaa 12-30-07, 04:41 PM	TWF and Scout don't work so well together; the only feat I'm aware of that lets you swing with two weapons as a Standard action also specifies that you only get precision damage once. I invite you to look at the Scout's Handbook: (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=584572) which will give you some insight into the ups and downs of the class. :) Yeah, I am finding that out. I actually made a detailed list of what feats i would take and in what order for 12 levels of Scout. I was trying to find the best way to advance the class. thanks for the link to the Scout handbook, i have been looking it over and it will help me with development. Part of why i took the class was that i was already functioning as a Scout for the party anyhow, and i thought that the class would enhance the way i was playing my Ranger. It has. i like the class, though Skirmish is much better suited for 1st through 5th lvl characters. The feat you are talking about is Duel Strike. I took at 2nd lvl Scout. That does help. I can get that extra attack in on the initial round of combat when i move up to engage.
DarkRhystar 12-30-07, 04:43 PM	Two-Weapon Fighting is fine for the Scout... as long as you have Dervish levels. :)
Salla 12-30-07, 04:44 PM	The feat you are talking about is Duel Strike. I took at 2nd lvl Scout. That does help. I can get that extra attack in on the initial round of combat when i move up to engage. Yeah, but you only get the skirmish once, which takes a bit of the wind out of it. :) TWF and Skirmish work against each other because TWF requires you to stand still, while Skirmish requires you to move. I find Archery to be the better option for Skirmishing. Greater Manyshot expressly requires multiple attack rolls and permits multiple instances of precision-damage, and archers don't want to stand still near bruisers. :) I agree with Paladin's Pride that TWF and Sneak Attack go together like Power Attack and Greatswords.
tchacotaa 12-30-07, 04:46 PM	[QUOTE=Paladin's Pride;14701957] You are also correct that skirmish in no way mitigates attacks of opportunity, so you may provoke alot of them if you attempt to use skirmish in melee. Spring Attack or ranks in tumble are a good investment for a melee scout. Unfortunately, this does mean that skirmish does not synergize well with a two-weapon fighting ranger, even though it would seem like a scout and ranger would synergize well thematically. You would be better off taking rogue levels and using sneak attack, which works well with two-weapon fighting. Another option would be to take the dervish prestige class (complete warrior, pg. 25) which allows you to move and take a full attack a few times per day, thus allowing you to skirmish while taking a full attack. QUOTE] I did take ranks in Tumble as soon as i multclassed. It is a great feat, and i will certianly use it during Skirmish. And i agree that it will help me avoid AoO. I may look into Spring Attack. I have chosen to take Mobility, that will give me a +4 dodge bonus against AoO. I will not get it untill Lvl 4 Scout though.
tchacotaa 12-30-07, 05:00 PM	=Salla; Yeah, but you only get the skirmish once, which takes a bit of the wind out of it. :) TWF and Skirmish work against each other because TWF requires you to stand still, while Skirmish requires you to move. I find Archery to be the better option for Skirmishing. Greater Manyshot expressly requires multiple attack rolls and permits multiple instances of precision-damage, and archers don't want to stand still near bruisers. :) I agree with Paladin's Pride that TWF and Sneak Attack go together like Power Attack and Greatswords. I can see i am going tohave to rethink my advancment. I do like appling Skirmish to my archery. Even though i took TWF, i have been using my bow the last couple of game sessions. So far Sneak Attack sounds like the way to go. I had thought about taking Over Sized Weapon at 5th lvl Scout, so i could use two medium weapons on my TWF. It looks like my tactics should be use ranged Skirmish attacks to back up the party and when i need to engage use the Skirmish to get in the fight and then rely on my TWF, espicially when i have Mobility. But if i can attack a single foe and circle him going from one threatened square to another, i should not have AoO, but i loose out on my TWF bennifits. I see oppurtinity to fight very versitaly, instead of doing the same thing all the time. I can make this work in a positive fashion even if i mistook the way the Scout works. Thanks.
Warweaver 12-30-07, 05:32 PM	If your DM allows the Book of Nine Swords, a long-term solution (earliest would be after 1 more level of Scout and 4 levels of Warblade from BoNS) that would get you Skirmish to TWF attacks is possible. There is a stance called Press the Advantage you can get at that level which allows an extra 5 feet of movement when you take a 5 ft. step (making it a 10 ft. step and granting skirmish damage). Unlike the Dervish, you could do this all day (though again, not until 14th level).
BugHunter 12-30-07, 07:18 PM	You can also take the feats of Telling Blow (PHBII) and Swift Hunter (CS). By taking telling blow you get another way of doing skirmish damage using high threat range weapons. Swift hunter allows you to stack your ranger and scout levels for skirmish and FE.
FrostHammer 12-30-07, 07:59 PM	Actually, why not take one level of barbarian instead? That way you can charge (which of course involves moving more than 10 feet) and do a full-attack. It's an alternative to the standard Shock Trooper because you don't need to power-attack. your damage will come from your skirmish, and you'll actually have respectable AC. Take 4 levels of scout, one barbarian, the rest in ranger, and take Swift Hunter. Go with the 2-weapon combat style, and be prepared to throw lots of dice.
DarkRhystar 12-30-07, 08:29 PM	Take 4 levels of scout, one barbarian, the rest in ranger, and take Swift Hunter. Go with the 2-weapon combat style, and be prepared to throw lots of dice. Inefficient and likely inducing the multiclass XP penalty.
FrostHammer 12-30-07, 08:56 PM	I don't know any DMs in my area that use the multiclass XP penalty, so it doesn't really bother me. If yours does, then consider asking your DM to remove the penalty. XP penalties aside, I do not see it as inefficient at all.
tchacotaa 12-30-07, 10:23 PM	Inefficient and likely inducing the multiclass XP penalty. We do not use multiclass penalties either. I am DM in a game i run at my house. Our other DM, the one i play the charactor in question in, does not use xp. You have to earn your levels, so you only advance when you have accomplished the goal or done something worth while to advance in level. So no xp penalty there. Take 4 levels of scout, one barbarian, the rest in ranger, and take Swift Hunter. Go with the 2-weapon combat style, and be prepared to throw lots of dice. I like this idea. A good plan for starting a PC. I really like the Swift Hunter feat. If i had the feat now, i would have +3d6 dam and +3 on AC. i do not have oppurtunity to get another feat for two more levels. I am looking over all the ideas here so i can beter plan my advancement.
FrostHammer 12-30-07, 10:28 PM	What is your character currently looking in terms of build?
tchacotaa 12-30-07, 10:56 PM	What is your character currently looking in terms of build? Some history: As a Ranger, i chose TWF. Stopped Ranger at 7th lvl, so that when i took 2nd lvl in Scout, I took Duel Strike as my 9th lvl feat. Future plans as i had planned them: 4th lvl, Mobility 5th lvl, Oversized Two Weapon 8th lvl, Point Blank, Precise Shot 11th lvl, Dodge 12th lvl, Quick Reconnitoir that is as far as i have planned. Looking at what has been suggested, i am going to rethink my progress. All suggestions are welcome.
tchacotaa 12-30-07, 11:07 PM	I probly should add that my plans were to be a more viable melee character. I am doing 4 attacks / rnd, but i only have a 17 AC. So i was hoping to better my AC and aid my damage, as well as progress as a Scout, since i was playing my Ranger that way anyhow. The Scout seemed a logical choice. I wanted access to 2nd lvl spells that i would have gotten at 8th lvl, but i felt that the Scout would be more beneficial than gaining one 2nd lvl spell per day. So i still want to advance as a TWF combatant, more than as an archerer, but i want to use my bow when needed.
BugHunter 12-30-07, 11:42 PM	If you are going down the two-weapon fighting tree don't forget the two-weapon defense options. You can also use a buckler with improved buckler defense with two-weapons.
FrostHammer 12-31-07, 12:32 AM	Meh. Feats are scarce. Instead, get an Animated Heavy Shield. To pump up AC, make sure you're wearing an enchanted Chain Shirt, and have high dex. Str should not be a dump stat, however, since you can't use a lot of your abilities while you're carrying a medium load I think.
Kelb_Havoc 01-04-08, 01:50 AM	If you wanna get skirmish damage and a full attack, you'll have to find a way to take 10ft steps. That said, OA pg 58 has the rules for "extreme tumbling." One of the entries says you can take a "10ft step" with a successful (albeit high) tumble check. OA is a 3.0 book though.
Dalzig 01-04-08, 02:18 AM	Another option for skirmishing is finding some kind of magic item that allows you to do mini-teleports, hopefully as a swift action. Skirmish never says how you have to move 10ft. This would ideally allow a full attack with all skirmish goodness.
Hsien 01-04-08, 10:14 AM	Have you checked out the Swift Hunter's Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=854152)in the Char Op boards? Some other thoughts... Improved Skirmish; move 20' to get +2d6 more skirmish Swift Hunter; not just for Ranger/Scout level stacking but that it also allows for Skirmish damage to affect Favored Enemies even if they are "immune" to precision damage. ( constructs, elementals and undead...oh my :elf: ) Dip into Cleric w/ Travel Devotion 1/day one minute you can move and make full attacks Use turn attempts to gain extra uses
FrostHammer 01-04-08, 10:27 AM	There's lots of way of doing this. Some are easier, some are harder. Charging lets you do it infinite number of times, but yuo gotta be able to charge. Other methods are more restrictive on how many times you can do it, and you need to have higher charisma if you wanna have more turn attemptss. You can go Dervish to be able to do a full-attack while moving though.
kimura121 01-04-08, 02:58 PM	i am currently playing a scout 4/ranger2/dervish2 and i finally hit my sweet spot for damage. definately take the swift hunter feat and probably improved skirmish. oversized twf isnt worth it IMHO. there is a first level ranger spell thats a swift action to cast and lets you pounce..... also a belt of battle will let you take a move and full attack 3 times a day. two weapon pounce is nice to get at least 2 swings with skirmish damage consistantly as long as you can keep charging. if you stop at scout 4 you only loose 1 point of bab bonus. also not sure where u are going with the build but taking a barbarian level to get pounce is a great idea.xp penalty aside, i didnt do it for flavor reasons and i dislike cherry picking classes for abilites and for that reason i personally would go another route. i also use a bow sometimes but i'd save your bow feats and focus on melee since thats they way you are swaying already. the +1 +1 from point blank shot isnt much but precise shot is nice. however you can get the precise enchantment for your bow and save yourself 2 feats .
Saiyamantis 01-04-08, 07:18 PM	Some history: As a Ranger, i chose TWF. Stopped Ranger at 7th lvl, so that when i took 2nd lvl in Scout, I took Duel Strike as my 9th lvl feat. Future plans as i had planned them: 4th lvl, Mobility 5th lvl, Oversized Two Weapon 8th lvl, Point Blank, Precise Shot 11th lvl, Dodge 12th lvl, Quick Reconnitoir that is as far as i have planned. Looking at what has been suggested, i am going to rethink my progress. All suggestions are welcome. You can't get Mobility without Dodge, so these two should be switched. Aside from that, I'd recommend focusing on one combat style: forget Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and focus on getting your ranged combat and skirmish feats as soon as possible. If you DM allows it, switch your ranger's combat style to archery; you'll save yourself a couple of feats. In the meantime, see if you can get a pair of either Quicksilver Boots or Skirmisher's Boots, both from the Magic Item Compendium. One allows you to move as a swift action, the other allows you to make a full attack after moving. The end result is basically the same.
FrostHammer 01-04-08, 11:18 PM	People actually use overwsized two-weapon fighting? Wow
Maxfu 01-07-08, 01:58 AM	This would be extremely late in level, and you'd need a very high base attack bonus, but why not go with the Spring Attack tree from PHBII? Bounding Assault at.... I believe 14 BAB will allow you a second attack during a skirmishing attempting, and Rapid Blitz will give you a third attack at 18 BAB. This means your scout level will have to be fairly low if you go for the 18 BAB, but if you can do that, with only 1d6 skirmish, you're looking at an extra 3d6 damage per round, assuming all three attacks per hit. I'm working on a scout myself, bastard sword and board, made for a high armor class. At second level, I've got a 22 (10+2 Leather Armor+2 Shield+5 Dex+2 Natural Armor+1 Dodge), and it'll only go up when I pick up Battle Fortitude at the next skirmish level for the scout.
HARLEYDUDE 01-08-08, 12:15 PM	In one game I play a Tiefling scout. I did take one level dip into barbarian. I also took the quick trait(+10'), fast movement background feat (+10')(I dont remember the exact name, but it is from the players guide to faerein). plus boots of spring and striding and the fast movement from the barb and scout, my movement is up to 90' per round. I did take the TWF using Dual strike. Also the spring attack tree. Mobility is great for avoiding Aoo's. Here's my suggestion. I see you have planned for Quick Reconnitoir. Combine that with a good spot check and the skill trick "spot the weak point". Use QR to make a free action spot check (DC=AC) If succesful you attack vs. touch AC. I hardly ever get hit (cause i move around so much) and I almost always hit. The touch attack is usually easy to hit. Also check out the feat Extra Skirmish from Complete Scoundrel. That (at least to me) offsets the loss of the extra hits. I am planning on the feats suggested by Maxfu. The ones that allow extra attacks with spring attack. I just have to wait for the BAB. I hope this helps HD
BugHunter 01-08-08, 08:57 PM	In one game I play a Tiefling scout. I did take one level dip into barbarian. I also took the quick trait(+10'), fast movement background feat (+10')(I dont remember the exact name, but it is from the players guide to faerein). plus boots of spring and striding and the fast movement from the barb and scout, my movement is up to 90' per round. According to the rules of stacking the fast movement of the scout and the boots of spring and striding would not stack since both are texted as enhancement bonuses of course the dm can house rule otherwise. All of your other movement bonuses do stack since they are unnamed.