Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rogerd 02-20-07, 05:28 PM	Can I use Sleight of Hand in combat? It seems that you could, but this isn't well supported in the Combat chapter. It looks to me as if it is a DC20 standard action that provokes. The opponent can make an opposed spot check to notice that you got an item. What items can be stolen? A pouch? A backpack? A sheathed weapon? A cloak? How is this related to the "Grabbing Items" section of Disarm? Any thoughts on this? I'm thinking about it both from a player's POV (creating a thief with Sleight of Hand), and from a DM's point of view. Thief's objective might be to steal something in the middle of a fight and then withdraw. Roger
Vintar 02-20-07, 06:18 PM	I think that this is already covered by the disarm rules. Sleight of hand is more for when they don't notice you - even if they make the spot it is as if they notice as you swipe it - not before.
Vegepygmy 02-20-07, 06:28 PM	Can I use Sleight of Hand in combat?Not if I'm DM. And any player suggesting that they should be allowed to had better be prepared for NPCs to start using the same trick...
ph34r807 02-20-07, 07:59 PM	I give it to my players when they have the AoO, they are the PC flanking a creature, or they are unseen by the said creature. They have a -5 to a Higher number to their check to make it more difficult depending on what they are trying to steal. And only if the player goes to steal these object in this order in my game. First: The money pouch if one is visible or actually there Second: The sheathed weapon of simple size or raise the Dc to a unreasonable number Third: The pants only possible with a 20 die roll
MerlintheTuna 02-20-07, 08:11 PM	DC 50. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#sleightOfHand)
rogerd 02-20-07, 09:06 PM	First, thanks for all the replies. Merlinthe Tuna: It's interesting that it specifically calls out "and hide it on your person" - should be easier if you're not trying to do that. ph34r807: Thanks! I don't think I'd allow the pants to be stolen though. :-) Vegepygmy: I'm certainly looking to have it work both ways! Vintar: The Disarm rules are certainly the ones that confuse the issue the most. As ph34r807 points out, the player could certainly steal from a hidden position (invisible, for instance) I just looked at Complete Adventurer, PHB II and Cityscape and didn't find any more details on theft there. Is there anything in Complete Scoundrel? Roger
Melpomene 02-20-07, 09:31 PM	PhB, pg 155, Grabbing items in combat.... skill description... hm... I knew there was something somewhere...
Judging Eagle 02-20-07, 09:49 PM	Meh, that's nothing. Sleight of Hand makes Quick Draw useless. Literally.
ph34r807 02-21-07, 12:44 AM	The pants is from the movie the gamers I would check it out if I were anyone. pretty funny stuff. The dc of 50 would seem pretty reasonable but for a weapon that would be a hard thing to take, but it seems you should get bonuses for invis, or flanking and such. There attention is distracted and you would have a better chance to go for the steal. Thats it would be in game at least, but ut would have to be a small weapon.
Piropoint 02-21-07, 01:23 PM	Hey. I created a prestige class a little while ago called the Fortune Thief, which was a Spell Thief that stole Armor, Saves, and BAB from his opponent with a succesfull Sneak Attack. He also developed Abilities to use Slight of Hand in combat whenever someone provoked an attack of oppertunity (or Slight of Hand of oppertunity) In higher levels he developed the ability to use the blink spell a certain number of times per day, which inabbled him to use slight of hand to slip items such as rings, necklaces, and bracers off an opponent. It ended up geting balanced reviews.
MerlintheTuna 02-21-07, 02:12 PM	The pants is from the movie the gamers I would check it out if I were anyone. pretty funny stuff.I would not wish such punishment upon even the devil himself.
rogerd 02-21-07, 02:37 PM	Melpomene: Yes, I saw those rules too. It's not entirely clear to me how sleight of hand gets involved. Judging Eagle: I'm not sure how that's true. Can you elaborate? I've thought Quick Draw could be extremely useful to a character that throws daggers for instance, especially in a surprise round. I don't see how sleight of hand cancels that. Piropoint: That's an interesting idea, but I'm more interested in exploring the core rules rather than new prestige classes. Perhaps the thing to do is to allow it as it seems to be written: A standard action that requires a DC 20 skill check. The item to be taken would then cause a series of circumstance modifiers to be applied. I see the size and location of the item as relevant, and also whether the thief in question is hidden or not, flanking or not, etc. The item might be more or less secured. (A truly secured item should be invulnerable to theft though.) Roger
Judging Eagle 02-28-07, 12:22 PM	Sleight of hand allows you to take a -20 penalty on your check to draw a weapon as a free action. So, a fighter dumps 2 skill points into Sleight of hand and he can now Quick Draw whenever he wants to. Really, he's trying to draw his weapon without anyone noticing, but since he's rushing to do it as a free action, no one falls for it. Read the skills entry in the PHB or the SRD. There's a link to the d20 srd in my sig.
Vegepygmy 02-28-07, 12:35 PM	Sleight of hand allows you to take a -20 penalty on your check to draw a weapon as a free action.It does no such thing. Sleight of Hand allows you to hide a light weapon on your body as a standard action. You can do that as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on your SoH check. Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action, but does not require a SoH check (so you can't do it as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the SoH check, because there isn't any SoH check).
jameswilliamogle 02-28-07, 02:08 PM	I see nothing wrong with using SoH in combat. It seems like a reasonable enough action to be trying. Tons of skills are used in combat: Jumping, Tumbling, Spellcraft, and even Diplomacy is used during combat sometimes; why is Sleight of Hand special? The only skills that look inappropriate for combat to me are Perform, Gather Information, Decipher Script, Disguise, Forgery, Craft, and Profession, and this is more due to time than anything else. Using SoH in combat has some serious drawbacks: Don't forget it (probably) provokes (unless you take the -20 as a free action, which is not a hard rule, either). Action Attack of Opportunity ... Use skill that takes 1 action Usually ...and Free Actions Free actions don’t take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below. and you can get around the AoO with Concentration (Con) Check You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted. and the DC is Special You can use Concentration to cast a spell, use a spell-like ability, or use a skill defensively, so as to avoid attacks of opportunity altogether. This doesn’t apply to other actions that might provoke attacks of opportunity. The DC of the check is 15 (plus the spell’s level, if casting a spell or using a spell-like ability defensively). If the Concentration check succeeds, you may attempt the action normally without provoking any attacks of opportunity. A successful Concentration check still doesn’t allow you to take 10 on another check if you are in a stressful situation; you must make the check normally. If the Concentration check fails, the related action also automatically fails (with any appropriate ramifications), and the action is wasted, just as if your concentration had been disrupted by a distraction. Considering most Rogues have only moderate Con, and little if any Concentration, I don't think its unbalancing at all.
Judging Eagle 02-28-07, 05:22 PM	It does no such thing. Sleight of Hand allows you to hide a light weapon on your body as a standard action. You can do that as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on your SoH check. Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action, but does not require a SoH check (so you can't do it as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the SoH check, because there isn't any SoH check). Except that I can claim that the long robes of my Adventurer's Outfit conceal my greatsword? Look, we're not talking about if this is going to actually hide the weapon. Think of it as a "Skill Trick" out of Complete Adventurer; that was around since Core. You spend 2 skill points and you can always quick draw; and if you make a SoH check with a -20 to it, you can't be seen. What this all really means is that Drawing a weapon should always be and always have been a free action. The people at WoTC failed to write that, but who cares; they pretty much left a backdoor that we can all use. As for the realism of pulling out an object or weapon while running with no... 'spcecial training' is actually quite easy. I've played paintball games where In the course of 5-10 seconds I've run full out; pegged three guys with 'kill' shots; and reloaded two ball tubes all while running. So, 10 seconds, is about 2 rounds. However I : -Covered about 100 feet; so double moving twice. -Reloaded twice, that's at least two standard actions, but I was running and you can draw a weapon (or reload a semi paintball gun) while moving if you have +1 or more BaB -Shot and hit three guys. So, either moving and shooting should be easier (it shouldn't with a bow IMO; a crossbow can retain it's pull, but you chance prematurely firing a crossbow if you run with your finger on the trigger) or drawing a weapon (and it's equivalents) should not count as taking up time once you have +1 BaB. Also, read what James wrote. I don't always see eye to eye with him (we differ on the wordigs of stuff like UMD, which he thinks that shouldn't allow you to use a Holy A and only pallys get them; while I believe that all of the Dieties have brigades of press-ganged lvl 10 rogues that UMD Candles of Invocation and use four Holy A.s (thank Girallon's blessing there) with multi-attack to lead Solar legions against Marilith generals), but we tend to both look to the rules themselves to see how things work in 3.5. We only differ on trivialities.
Vegepygmy 02-28-07, 06:02 PM	Judging Eagle, I'm confused. Are you just making suggestions for house rules, or are you claiming the RAW allow one to draw a hidden weapon as a free action? Your comments about greatswords (which aren't light weapons, and thus aren't SoH-able) and skill tricks that have been "around since Core" are just baffling me. If you're just saying that in your opinion, drawing a weapon should always be a free action, I won't argue with you. I disagree, but I won't argue over a matter of opinion. But I thought you were making a claim about the actual rules.
ScipioX 03-01-07, 01:32 AM	They have separate rules for taking objects from people in combat. (see Disarm). Sleight of hand is for snagging something from somebody when they aren't actively resisting. It would be interesting to allow a -20 sleight of hand check (for the free action) to conceal successfully grabbing an item worn by the target.
Dheran 03-01-07, 02:58 AM	Can I use Sleight of Hand in combat? It seems that you could, but this isn't well supported in the Combat chapter. It looks to me as if it is a DC20 standard action that provokes. The opponent can make an opposed spot check to notice that you got an item. Of course you can use Sleight of Hand in combat! Ignore those yahoos who are making up house rules to the contrary. You've got most of the mechanics right, rogerd. If the AoO causes you damage, the Sleight of Hand attempt fails unless you make a Concentration check (DC = 10 + damage dealt). You can avoid the AoO in the first place if you make the SoH attempt defensively (DC 15 Concentration check). (There's also a feat named Cutpurse to avoid the AoO.)What items can be stolen? A pouch? A backpack? A sheathed weapon? A cloak? Here we get into the required setup and situational modifiers. To be able to filch something you've got to see it clearly enough to determine how it's being carried. Your DM will have to determine the Spot DCs for carried or worn items, but 15 is a typical DC to notice small details (same as for reading lips). A Spot check used actively takes a move action (unless you've got the Quick Reconnoiter feat). You apply a -1 penalty for each 10' of distance, and always take the -5 penalty for "Spotter distracted" in combat. Your Spot check might fail if the item you're interested in is partially concealed (by a flapping cloak, for instance); apply a 20% failure chance for partial concealment. Once you make your successful Spot check, and get through the AoO, then we get into standard situational modifiers. The standard DC for grabbing small items is 20. Most DMs I've worked with always apply a -5 penalty for combat use, and sometimes a further -5 penalty for items that are tied on, such as a spell component pouch. Grabbing a sheathed weapon in combat has a fixed DC of 50 in the rules, so no further modifiers need to be applied to this. As a suggested house rule, I'd impose a total -20 penalty for trying to grab a backpack: -5 for combat, and -5 for each of the shoulder straps and belt. If the pack is 60 lbs. or heavier apply a further -5 penalty because it's medium size rather than small.
Judging Eagle 03-01-07, 01:33 PM	Judging Eagle, I'm confused. Are you just making suggestions for house rules, or are you claiming the RAW allow one to draw a hidden weapon as a free action? Your comments about greatswords (which aren't light weapons, and thus aren't SoH-able) and skill tricks that have been "around since Core" are just baffling me. If you're just saying that in your opinion, drawing a weapon should always be a free action, I won't argue with you. I disagree, but I won't argue over a matter of opinion. But I thought you were making a claim about the actual rules. Yeah, but you can SoH any item your size with an appropriate penalty. A Polearm however you couln't SoH; it's a weapon of a size category larger than yourself. Oh, boy, I'm sure all the fighters are quaking in their booties when they hear they now have to take a -40 to their SoH roll as they free-draw a greatsword.
rogerd 03-01-07, 02:30 PM	Judging Eagle: Thanks for pointing out the Free Action for a -20 penalty. I had missed that. I would say using SOH in place of Quick Draw is off-topic though. Dheran: Nice summary! I'm not sure I'd apply quite so high circumstance modifiers as the ones you suggested, but it sounds like a good approach. It's nice to see a purpose for Concentration other than spellcasting too! jameswilliamogle: Thanks for the post, and all the SRD quotes. Very useful! I completely agree it isn't unbalancing. A friend of mine was just arguing the thief would be better off simply killing the victim instead - at which point they can take all the stuff. I wonder if using Sleight of Hand on an opponent (combat or not) kills invisibility? The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Parsing the rules as written, I would argue that sleight of hand would not break invisibility. Roger
ScipioX 03-01-07, 02:34 PM	Of course you can use Sleight of Hand in combat! Ignore those yahoos who are making up house rules to the contrary To be able to filch something you've got to see it clearly enough to determine how it's being carried. Your DM will have to determine the Spot DCs for carried or worn items, but 15 is a typical DC to notice small details (same as for reading lips). A Spot check used actively takes a move action (unless you've got the Quick Reconnoiter feat). You apply a -1 penalty for each 10' of distance, and always take the -5 penalty for "Spotter distracted" in combat. Your Spot check might fail if the item you're interested in is partially concealed (by a flapping cloak, for instance); apply a 20% failure chance for partial concealment. Um, sounds to me like you're the one who just made up a whole slew of house rules. The sleight of hand skill makes no mention of spotting your target or failure %'s for partial concealment. While I agree that those are reasonable house rules, they are not RAW. Sleight of hand is not listed under the actions in combat table: the only thing there is a general action for using skills. The sleight of hand skill makes no reference to when it can be used. What we do have, however, is a special set of rules specifically geared towards combat: the Disarm -> grabbing an item section. Standard interpretation requires that specific rules trump general rules. If Sleight of hand worked in combat, the Disarm rules would discuss it.
ScipioX 03-01-07, 02:38 PM	I would argue that sleight of hand would not break invisibility. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Carried or worn objects are attended objects. The implication is then that actions directed at attended objects DOES break the spell.
jameswilliamogle 03-01-07, 02:51 PM	Ultimately, there's arguments for and against, as you can see. Its a "vague rules" question. Anyways, ask CustServ. Just because it says unattended objects don't break the spell, it doesn't mean that attended or worn objects do. There's no implication there. Ultimately, though, your friend is right: killing someone and taking there goods IS the easiest way to get someone's loot. You don't need Sleight of Hand for it, just a big rock, someone below you, and a natural 20.
Vegepygmy 03-01-07, 03:37 PM	Yeah, but you can SoH any item your size with an appropriate penalty.By the core rules? Or some supplementary source?
Dheran 03-01-07, 11:44 PM	Um, sounds to me like you're the one who just made up a whole slew of house rules. The sleight of hand skill makes no mention of spotting your target or failure %'s for partial concealment. While I agree that those are reasonable house rules, they are not RAW. OK, how are you going to pick your Sleight of Hand target without Spotting it first? Player: "I steal her spell component pouch using Sleight of Hand." DM: "What spell component pouch is that?" Player: "Well, she cast a spell, so she must have one!" DM: "Sorry, you wasted your action." (The Sorcerer has Eschew Materials.) I'll grant that the concealment miss chance is a bit of a house rule, because using a skill against an opponent doesn't officially count as an attack. But if someone was trying to pluck your sword of überness from your belt in combat, you'd probably see it as an attack. Concealment Miss Chance Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance percentile roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack. If Sleight of hand worked in combat, the Disarm rules would discuss it. That's quite a stretch, ScipioX. Especially given the published DC to grab a sheathed weapon from an opponent, and the Cutpurse feat which exists solely to remove the AoO from using Sleight of Hand in combat. Assuming either completeness or consistency in the D&D rules is going to get you into trouble, every time.
Ellanon 03-02-07, 01:56 AM	In regards to using Sleight of Hand to Free Action draw your own weapon, that's silly. If you were attempting to Sleight of Hand something from another person and failed your attempt, you chance getting "caught" and you'd come up empty handed as well. So, in regards to using it to "quick draw" your own weapon, if you fail that -20 SoH check, you fail to draw your weapon because you failed your check. Using it in combat runs along the same lines. I'd allow it, but be prepared for the consequences (not only of failure, but of your DM using it against you as well). If you use it as a standard action, you not only lose the action for the round, they get a free attack on you (AoO). If you use it as a Free Action, you run the risk of failing the check.
Thyrwyn 03-02-07, 09:32 AM	Folks: there is nothing in the rules that allows Sleight of Hand to impact the drawing of a weapon -- Sleight of Hand may be used to hide the weapon. You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Search check, since it’s generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check.it then goes on to note (in a new paragraph) that:Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.No skill roll is required to draw a hidden weapon: therefore, it is not an application of any skill -- thus, the Action: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check.does not apply. Also not that only "a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow" may be concealed using this skill -- so no great swords.