Snap Kick and AoO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Snap Kick and AoO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LoreKeeper
06-08-07, 10:18 PM Something that's been bothering me since I looked at it. No matter how I look at it the raw text of Snap Kick (Tome of Battle) also allows me to use the Snap Kick feat when making use of an Attack of Opportunity. Is this correct?

(To be fair, it would only apply once a round, so I'd not be able to do a big full-round attack in my turn and still get an additional Snap Kick when doing the AoO - but if the feat wasn't used yet it should be available for AoO.)
royinator
06-09-07, 04:21 PM yeah... i'd say so... just remember the -2
Dheran
06-09-07, 04:40 PM (To be fair, it would only apply once a round, so I'd not be able to do a big full-round attack in my turn and still get an additional Snap Kick when doing the AoO - but if the feat wasn't used yet it should be available for AoO.) There's no once a round limitation on Snap Kick use; it's on any event when you make at least one melee attack. You can add an additional unarmed strike with 1/2 STR bonus "when you make a melee attack". So you can add one Snap Kick to any or all of the following:
Standard melee attack
Full-round attack including at least one melee attack
Bonus attack using a melee weapon (including unarmed strike)
Melee strike maneuver
Attack of Opportunity
LoreKeeper
06-09-07, 04:54 PM Wait... does that mean I can recursively use Snap Kick on itself as well? Since the effect of the Snap Kick is to give another unarmed attack, I can literally keep dividing the attacks more and more (taking successive penalties).

...since Snap Kick gives me a bonus attack - which is listed in your answer above
Radijs
06-09-07, 05:20 PM That would be great wouldn't it?
I doubt that it will work.
Nessaj
06-09-07, 07:22 PM There's no once a round limitation on Snap Kick use; it's on any event when you make at least one melee attack.

Huh. Quite sexy. I would assume the penalty keeps increasing though. For instance: -2 if you take a full attack, -4 if you throw a Snap Kick into an AOO, -6 if you have Combat Reflexes and get another opportunity...?

Even so, I'll have to reconsider my stance on this feat. This +Robillar's Gambit makes for a hell of a lot of attack rolls...
LoreKeeper
06-09-07, 08:26 PM Actually, by pure definition and raw text, you could go on forever and have infinite attack rolls. Then you take -infinity to your rolls, but you just have to roll a 20 to auto-hit. So having the feat makes you immediately win any fight in which you get to attack.

Clearly there is a problem.
Jeriaus
06-09-07, 11:59 PM RAW yes. RAI you could only use it on your turn, as AoO arent actually intentional attacks, but happenstance of you swinging your swrd around.
Nessaj
06-10-07, 07:32 AM RAW yes. RAI you could only use it on your turn, as AoO arent actually intentional attacks, but happenstance of you swinging your swrd around.

...No? If they were happenstance, you couldn't choose to not take one, which you can do (only if you're Lawful Good, tho). AOO are the result of your opponent leaving himself open in some way. They're a way of trying to inject some realism into combat. The wizard stands there waggling his fingers in front of your nose. Why would the big fighter guy lean on his sword and let him finish? Because it's not his turn to swing?
Dheran
06-11-07, 10:13 AM Wait... does that mean I can recursively use Snap Kick on itself as well? Since the effect of the Snap Kick is to give another unarmed attack, I can literally keep dividing the attacks more and more (taking successive penalties). You can add an additional unarmed strike with 1/2 STR bonus "when you make a melee attack". Note the singular article "an". You get one Snap Kick for any event which involves you making at least one melee attack. So it's one Snap Kick for a full attack, no matter how many attacks in that full attack. An AoO is a separate event (a different "when"), so you get an extra Snap Kick for that. A bonus attack only gives a separate Snap Kick if it's part of a different event, such as an immediate act because you manifested a psi-power.

There are no additional -2 penalties, but the -2 penalty for the first Snap Kick lasts until your initiative comes up again so all AoOs and immediate actions will be affected until then.
ravenshrike
06-11-07, 11:02 AM Note the singular article "an". You get one Snap Kick for any event which involves you making at least one melee attack. So it's one Snap Kick for a full attack, no matter how many attacks in that full attack. An AoO is a separate event (a different "when"), so you get an extra Snap Kick for that. A bonus attack only gives a separate Snap Kick if it's part of a different event, such as an immediate act because you manifested a psi-power.

There are no additional -2 penalties, but the -2 penalty for the first Snap Kick lasts until your initiative comes up again so all AoOs and immediate actions will be affected until then.

Actually, a full attack action has however many attacks you make in the round as melee attacks. A dual weilding 20th level fighter would therefore get 16 attacks in a round, 32 if he's a warblade with TSS. With a weapon of speed, this would increase to 36. Of course, he would be making those at a -64/72 to attack by the end, but there's at least one 20 in there, probably more thus making it a viable tactic.
LoreKeeper
06-11-07, 01:43 PM Dheran & ravenshrike

You both have good news - but it is world's apart. Which one is correct?

And in the case of ravenshrike - if your version works, what if the the hero has 1 level in Monk (Flurry of Blows) and 19 in Warblade?
Dheran
06-11-07, 02:58 PM Here's the first line from the "Benefit" section of Snap Kick:When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus. Since the feat makes it clear that a "full attack" "with one or more melee weapons" gives you "an additional attack" I think it's pretty clear that you don't get four Snap Kick attacks with four iterative melee attacks: you get one.

You can't make a single attack with more than one melee weapon, AFAIK. So all of those individual attacks together -- a full attack -- grant you a single Snap Kick.
LoreKeeper
06-11-07, 03:07 PM Ah :) ...glad to have that sorted out. Thanks a lot.
tarkin
06-11-07, 04:05 PM Dheran is very convincing. one or more means all your attacks that round (including any AoO) together can grant you a single extra attack.
LoreKeeper
06-11-07, 04:14 PM No, as Dheran points out:

Note the singular article "an". You get one Snap Kick for any event which involves you making at least one melee attack. So it's one Snap Kick for a full attack, no matter how many attacks in that full attack. An AoO is a separate event (a different "when"), so you get an extra Snap Kick for that. A bonus attack only gives a separate Snap Kick if it's part of a different event, such as an immediate act because you manifested a psi-power.

There are no additional -2 penalties, but the -2 penalty for the first Snap Kick lasts until your initiative comes up again so all AoOs and immediate actions will be affected until then.

...

Thus, using the Tome of Battle maneuver "Dancing Mongoose" a seperate attack event is triggered as a swift action that allows the use of Snap Kick, you could perform a full-round attack action with Snap Kick, then use the Dancing Mongoose as a swift action to gain another attack event that you can use Snap Kick on as well. If, then, an enemy provokes an AoO the Snap Kick could be applied to that event as well. All attacks would be performed with a single -2 penalty to attack, additional uses of Snap Kick do not cost additional penalties.
Jadowman
06-11-07, 04:40 PM When I first glanced at the feat, I thought that it was just Rapid Shot for kicks instead of arrows with the side bonus of being able to combine it with either a standard action or full attack. One extra attack per round with a -2 penalty on all of your attacks until the start of your next round.

However, on reading the feat more closely, I believe it works more like this (agreeing with Nessaj):

The feat triggers whenever you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver). When this feat triggers for the first time in a round, you have the option to make an extra attack as long as you take a -2 penalty to all further attacks in the round. However, the feat can trigger multiple times per round. Each time it triggers, you can opt to take an additional kick and take another -2 penalty to all further attacks. I would rule that the penalties are cumulative.

Example (all of this happens in the same round):

1st AoO plus extra kick. -2 penalty.
Full Attack plus extra kick. -4 penalty.
2nd AoO with no extra kick. -4 penalty.
3rd AoO plus extra kick. -6 penalty.

Please excuse me, I'm a level one M:tG judge.
LoreKeeper
06-11-07, 05:04 PM Okay, so now it comes to a dispute whether the -2 is once-off or cumulative with each use of Snap Kick in a round.

According to Dheran you pay -2 to all attacks to get the benefit of Snap Kick in all situations in which it is legal. (Once-off payment)

According to Jadowman each use requires individual payment. (Per-use payment)

It is a tough one to call in my opinion, as the literal text from the Tome of Battle doesn't really go to great lengths to distinguish the possibilities.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LoreKeeper 06-08-07, 10:18 PM	Something that's been bothering me since I looked at it. No matter how I look at it the raw text of Snap Kick (Tome of Battle) also allows me to use the Snap Kick feat when making use of an Attack of Opportunity. Is this correct? (To be fair, it would only apply once a round, so I'd not be able to do a big full-round attack in my turn and still get an additional Snap Kick when doing the AoO - but if the feat wasn't used yet it should be available for AoO.)
royinator 06-09-07, 04:21 PM	yeah... i'd say so... just remember the -2
Dheran 06-09-07, 04:40 PM	(To be fair, it would only apply once a round, so I'd not be able to do a big full-round attack in my turn and still get an additional Snap Kick when doing the AoO - but if the feat wasn't used yet it should be available for AoO.) There's no once a round limitation on Snap Kick use; it's on any event when you make at least one melee attack. You can add an additional unarmed strike with 1/2 STR bonus "when you make a melee attack". So you can add one Snap Kick to any or all of the following: Standard melee attack Full-round attack including at least one melee attack Bonus attack using a melee weapon (including unarmed strike) Melee strike maneuver Attack of Opportunity
LoreKeeper 06-09-07, 04:54 PM	Wait... does that mean I can recursively use Snap Kick on itself as well? Since the effect of the Snap Kick is to give another unarmed attack, I can literally keep dividing the attacks more and more (taking successive penalties). ...since Snap Kick gives me a bonus attack - which is listed in your answer above
Radijs 06-09-07, 05:20 PM	That would be great wouldn't it? I doubt that it will work.
Nessaj 06-09-07, 07:22 PM	There's no once a round limitation on Snap Kick use; it's on any event when you make at least one melee attack. Huh. Quite sexy. I would assume the penalty keeps increasing though. For instance: -2 if you take a full attack, -4 if you throw a Snap Kick into an AOO, -6 if you have Combat Reflexes and get another opportunity...? Even so, I'll have to reconsider my stance on this feat. This +Robillar's Gambit makes for a hell of a lot of attack rolls...
LoreKeeper 06-09-07, 08:26 PM	Actually, by pure definition and raw text, you could go on forever and have infinite attack rolls. Then you take -infinity to your rolls, but you just have to roll a 20 to auto-hit. So having the feat makes you immediately win any fight in which you get to attack. Clearly there is a problem.
Jeriaus 06-09-07, 11:59 PM	RAW yes. RAI you could only use it on your turn, as AoO arent actually intentional attacks, but happenstance of you swinging your swrd around.
Nessaj 06-10-07, 07:32 AM	RAW yes. RAI you could only use it on your turn, as AoO arent actually intentional attacks, but happenstance of you swinging your swrd around. ...No? If they were happenstance, you couldn't choose to not take one, which you can do (only if you're Lawful Good, tho). AOO are the result of your opponent leaving himself open in some way. They're a way of trying to inject some realism into combat. The wizard stands there waggling his fingers in front of your nose. Why would the big fighter guy lean on his sword and let him finish? Because it's not his turn to swing?
Dheran 06-11-07, 10:13 AM	Wait... does that mean I can recursively use Snap Kick on itself as well? Since the effect of the Snap Kick is to give another unarmed attack, I can literally keep dividing the attacks more and more (taking successive penalties). You can add an additional unarmed strike with 1/2 STR bonus "when you make a melee attack". Note the singular article "an". You get one Snap Kick for any event which involves you making at least one melee attack. So it's one Snap Kick for a full attack, no matter how many attacks in that full attack. An AoO is a separate event (a different "when"), so you get an extra Snap Kick for that. A bonus attack only gives a separate Snap Kick if it's part of a different event, such as an immediate act because you manifested a psi-power. There are no additional -2 penalties, but the -2 penalty for the first Snap Kick lasts until your initiative comes up again so all AoOs and immediate actions will be affected until then.
ravenshrike 06-11-07, 11:02 AM	Note the singular article "an". You get one Snap Kick for any event which involves you making at least one melee attack. So it's one Snap Kick for a full attack, no matter how many attacks in that full attack. An AoO is a separate event (a different "when"), so you get an extra Snap Kick for that. A bonus attack only gives a separate Snap Kick if it's part of a different event, such as an immediate act because you manifested a psi-power. There are no additional -2 penalties, but the -2 penalty for the first Snap Kick lasts until your initiative comes up again so all AoOs and immediate actions will be affected until then. Actually, a full attack action has however many attacks you make in the round as melee attacks. A dual weilding 20th level fighter would therefore get 16 attacks in a round, 32 if he's a warblade with TSS. With a weapon of speed, this would increase to 36. Of course, he would be making those at a -64/72 to attack by the end, but there's at least one 20 in there, probably more thus making it a viable tactic.
LoreKeeper 06-11-07, 01:43 PM	Dheran & ravenshrike You both have good news - but it is world's apart. Which one is correct? And in the case of ravenshrike - if your version works, what if the the hero has 1 level in Monk (Flurry of Blows) and 19 in Warblade?
Dheran 06-11-07, 02:58 PM	Here's the first line from the "Benefit" section of Snap Kick:When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus. Since the feat makes it clear that a "full attack" "with one or more melee weapons" gives you "an additional attack" I think it's pretty clear that you don't get four Snap Kick attacks with four iterative melee attacks: you get one. You can't make a single attack with more than one melee weapon, AFAIK. So all of those individual attacks together -- a full attack -- grant you a single Snap Kick.
LoreKeeper 06-11-07, 03:07 PM	Ah :) ...glad to have that sorted out. Thanks a lot.
tarkin 06-11-07, 04:05 PM	Dheran is very convincing. one or more means all your attacks that round (including any AoO) together can grant you a single extra attack.
LoreKeeper 06-11-07, 04:14 PM	No, as Dheran points out: Note the singular article "an". You get one Snap Kick for any event which involves you making at least one melee attack. So it's one Snap Kick for a full attack, no matter how many attacks in that full attack. An AoO is a separate event (a different "when"), so you get an extra Snap Kick for that. A bonus attack only gives a separate Snap Kick if it's part of a different event, such as an immediate act because you manifested a psi-power. There are no additional -2 penalties, but the -2 penalty for the first Snap Kick lasts until your initiative comes up again so all AoOs and immediate actions will be affected until then. ... Thus, using the Tome of Battle maneuver "Dancing Mongoose" a seperate attack event is triggered as a swift action that allows the use of Snap Kick, you could perform a full-round attack action with Snap Kick, then use the Dancing Mongoose as a swift action to gain another attack event that you can use Snap Kick on as well. If, then, an enemy provokes an AoO the Snap Kick could be applied to that event as well. All attacks would be performed with a single -2 penalty to attack, additional uses of Snap Kick do not cost additional penalties.
Jadowman 06-11-07, 04:40 PM	When I first glanced at the feat, I thought that it was just Rapid Shot for kicks instead of arrows with the side bonus of being able to combine it with either a standard action or full attack. One extra attack per round with a -2 penalty on all of your attacks until the start of your next round. However, on reading the feat more closely, I believe it works more like this (agreeing with Nessaj): The feat triggers whenever you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver). When this feat triggers for the first time in a round, you have the option to make an extra attack as long as you take a -2 penalty to all further attacks in the round. However, the feat can trigger multiple times per round. Each time it triggers, you can opt to take an additional kick and take another -2 penalty to all further attacks. I would rule that the penalties are cumulative. Example (all of this happens in the same round): 1st AoO plus extra kick. -2 penalty. Full Attack plus extra kick. -4 penalty. 2nd AoO with no extra kick. -4 penalty. 3rd AoO plus extra kick. -6 penalty. Please excuse me, I'm a level one M:tG judge.
LoreKeeper 06-11-07, 05:04 PM	Okay, so now it comes to a dispute whether the -2 is once-off or cumulative with each use of Snap Kick in a round. According to Dheran you pay -2 to all attacks to get the benefit of Snap Kick in all situations in which it is legal. (Once-off payment) According to Jadowman each use requires individual payment. (Per-use payment) It is a tough one to call in my opinion, as the literal text from the Tome of Battle doesn't really go to great lengths to distinguish the possibilities.