Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skrillex 07-16-07, 05:46 AM	Is there any feat that will help me deal with sneak attacks, such as increase my flat footed armor class or just help me not become flat footed often.
Leilond 07-16-07, 06:08 AM	Is there any feat that will help me deal with sneak attacks, such as increase my flat footed armor class or just help me not become flat footed often. High initiative value help you to act first (you're flat-footed until your first action), thus an high dexterity value and any feat that make your initiative better (improved initiative) should help Walking on a slippery surface make you lose your dexterity bonus to AC unless you've 5 or more rank in "balance", thus it can be helpfull to have those points Uncanny dodge (rogue 4, barbarian 5) and your character won't lose his dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed. Deflection bonus, armor bonus, shield bonus, natural armor and all bonus that aren't lost during the flat-footed condition count for "flat-footed AC"
Davro 07-16-07, 07:30 AM	Also, if you can achieve a heavy fortification effect - not cheap or easy - You have a 100% chance of ignoring the extra damage from critical hits. If one is immune to critical hits, one is also immune to sneak attack. Some DMs may not like how that's worded, and I'm afraid I've not trawled the FAQ looking for precedent
Leilond 07-16-07, 08:01 AM	Also, if you can achieve a heavy fortification effect - not cheap or easy - You have a 100% chance of ignoring the extra damage from critical hits. If one is immune to critical hits, one is also immune to sneak attack. Some DMs may not like how that's worded, and I'm afraid I've not trawled the FAQ looking for precedent It't not a matter of "like", it's a matter of RULES DMG, page 219 Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produce a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally It isn't a matter of "interpretation", it is plain written
Tusalu 07-16-07, 08:11 AM	Trip. Foes who are down can be sneak ataacked.
Leilond 07-16-07, 08:27 AM	Trip. Foes who are down can be sneak ataacked. Wrong. When you're prone you do not lose your dexterity bonus to AC thus you cannot be sneak attacked And this thread is "how to defend from sneak attack?" and not "how can I do it"
Dheran 07-16-07, 11:08 AM	The two primary ways you can be sneak attacked are when you're flanked you're denied your DEX bonus to AC You can benefit from the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability to negate the flanked option. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex) A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. Because Uncanny Dodge combines with itself to become Improved Uncanny Dodge you can get this through different classes. A Barbarian 2/Cleric 1 with the Fate domain gets Improved Uncanny Dodge; then you just need enough levels in the classes that grant Uncanny Dodge to resist being flanked. Concealment will prevent sneak attacks:A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. Please note that some ways to get a miss chance like concealment don't actually provide concealment, so they don't keep you from being sneak attacked (Deflection being a good example). The Darkness spell will provide concealment. You can also keep your distance: Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
Davro 07-16-07, 11:29 AM	It't not a matter of "like", it's a matter of RULES DMG, page 219 It isn't a matter of "interpretation", it is plain written Excellent. Cheers. :-) Had the mental image of someone arguing the toss on that one, as only nitpicking DMs and players can.
NeueRegel 07-16-07, 11:49 AM	Nobody stated the most obvious. Whilst of no help against flanking, the usual way you are flatfooted is due to surprise. Spend as many skill points as you can spare in spot and or listen skills, and stop being surprised. Yeah, I know it's cross-class to alot of the core classes, and that's a pain, but suck it up and spend them. Still doesn't always help against surprise by extreme means like invisibility and such, but, it's an edge. Neue
TorgSmackie 07-16-07, 12:01 PM	Uncanny dodge (rogue 4, barbarian 5) and your character won't lose his dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed.Also, warblades get uncanny dodge at 2nd level, improved at 6th.
Frugal 07-16-07, 12:02 PM	Nobody stated the most obvious. Whilst of no help against flanking, the usual way you are flatfooted is due to surprise. Spend as many skill points as you can spare in spot and or listen skills, and stop being surprised. Yeah, I know it's cross-class to alot of the core classes, and that's a pain, but suck it up and spend them. Still doesn't always help against surprise by extreme means like invisibility and such, but, it's an edge. Neue You're also flatfooted in the 1st round of combat until you act. Still, high ranks in spot and listen helps negate surprise as well as helps with setting it up so that's still a valid way to go.
MethaneGranola 07-16-07, 12:19 PM	you could take the quick reconoiter feat in the complete adventure to give you a boost to intiative and make listen and spot easier
Empiro 07-16-07, 03:32 PM	Any type of concealment ruins sneak attack, so if you're a spellcaster, casting blur or Veil of Shadows (cleric) completely negates sneak attacks. If you can't cast spells, a smoke stick will do the trick as well, though of course the cloud doesn't move with you.
Polaris 07-16-07, 10:38 PM	Two more that haven't been mentioned (yet): The blindfighting feat prevents you from losing your Dex bonus to AC when being attacked by opponents you can't see. This feat will thus keep you from being snuck attacked by hidden and/or invisible foes. Also if you are under the premonition spell (personal effect) [usually for a high level wizard or cleric], you can not be caught flatfooted regardess of initiative score (amoung a lot of other nice things). This too helps avoid sneak attacks. The other ways work well too. IMHO the most sure and 'safest' way (and ultimately cheapest in terms of character construction) is simply to invest in a +5 Heavy fortification enchantment on either your armor or shield. Then you never worry about sneak attack again. Oh...almost forget. If you are 'Plant type' you can not be snuck attacked. This is important for Druids with the Oaken Resiliance feat. -Polaris
Psikerlord 07-16-07, 10:42 PM	I agree with Empiro, easiest way is via concealment. Either cast darkness, blur, displacement etc or if fighter type use armour with blur or displacement (MIC) enhancement. They are fairly cheap enhancements from memory. Displacement is only 1/day, but the Blur enhancement can be made to last over many fights (due to rounds per day use, I think).
Egres 07-17-07, 03:16 AM	You don't need to take class levels to get uncanny dodge. Just take the Bind Vestige tree (Paimon) feats, in Tome of Magic, page 72-74.
Leilond 07-17-07, 03:35 AM	I agree with Empiro, easiest way is via concealment. Either cast darkness, blur, displacement etc or if fighter type use armour with blur or displacement (MIC) enhancement. They are fairly cheap enhancements from memory. Displacement is only 1/day, but the Blur enhancement can be made to last over many fights (due to rounds per day use, I think). You need "concealment" and not a "concealment like miss chance" Darkness and blur provide concealment, thus prevent sneak Displacement provide a "concealment like miss chance", thus do not prevent sneak (but give you 50% chance to not being hit)
Optimator 07-17-07, 04:40 AM	The Gemstone of Heavy Fortification is from Draconomicon, although getting it installed into flesh might be a bit of a chore. At least it frees up a lot of room on your armor.
Empiro 07-17-07, 04:53 AM	You need "concealment" and not a "concealment like miss chance" Darkness and blur provide concealment, thus prevent sneak Displacement provide a "concealment like miss chance", thus do not prevent sneak (but give you 50% chance to not being hit) By a strict reading of the rules, perhaps not, though many DMs, myself included would rule that having your vitals 2 feet from where they appear to be would rule out such precision based damage.
Leilond 07-17-07, 04:57 AM	Fair, and surely a good house rule... but not RAW. I apply the same house rule, but it's an house rule Thus we agree on the "right way", but if we talk about rules we're both wrong
snakeman830 07-17-07, 09:39 AM	Play a necropolitan.:P A Cloak of Displacement will give you continuous concealment, so you'd never have to worry about sneak attacks. This is much cheaper than heavy fortification armor. The Gleaming armor quality in XPH does the same thing for a +3 bonus. And of course, Minotaurs are never caught flat-footed.
Frugal 07-17-07, 09:47 AM	Any miss chance will still help with negating but it's not a perfect defence. By the same token, having a high flat-footed AC is a decent defence too, doesn't negate sneak attack perfectly but if you aren't hit you're not going to get sneak attacked.
Dheran 07-17-07, 10:37 AM	A Cloak of Displacement will give you continuous concealment No, it doesn't. Displacement provides a miss chance that works like concealment, but isn't actually concealment. I already pointed this out once, and so did Leilond and Empiro. I guess you must have missed every single one of these posts somehow. :P
DocBeard 07-17-07, 11:15 AM	Actually, I think the whole 'displacement does not provide concealment' thing is a misreading of the rules. What it actually does not provide is total concealment. And any level of concealment is sufficient to defeat sneak attack. Where people get caught up, I think, is the line in Displacement which says that it allows enemies to target the creature normally. This is a reference to the total concealment condition, which states that you can't actually attack someone with total concealment at all, though you can blindly attack into the square you think he's in. With Displacement, you still know roughly where he is, you're just not capable of attacking with any precision. Now, I suppose you could argue (as indeed some have) that Displacement actually invents a whole new condition wherein you have a miss chance but are not actually concealed at all. But that line of argument is absurd. Even if you accept this dubious line of reasoning, a miss chance in and of itself will prevent the rogue from being "able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot". Call that a house rule if you want. It's not, but call it one if it makes you sleep better at night. What it is, is an interpretation of the existing rules*, and one which is at least as valid as the one which says that, because Displacement doesn't actually use the word "concealment" to describe the miss chance it provides, that that isn't exactly what is meant. In short: If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it defeats sneak attack like a duck even if the description just calls it a "quacking waterfowl". --- *I refuse to use the term 'Rules As Written' (or 'RAW') because I feel that it encourages exactly the sort of stupid literalism that leads to arguments like this in the first place. D&D is not holy writ, it is not even a Platonic ideal, it's a set of often-inconsistent and imprecisely-written rules which coalesce into a generally-playable game. You cannot play D&D without some level of interpretation of the rules, without some judgement calls. You simply cannot. If you prefer to think of it this way, everything is a house rule.
Dheran 07-17-07, 11:27 AM	I suppose you could argue (as indeed some have) that Displacement actually invents a whole new condition wherein you have a miss chance but are not actually concealed at all. But that line of argument is absurd.It's not absurd at all, DocBeard.Displacement The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally.Total Concealment You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). What's the difference between not being able to target someone with total concealment and having a 50% miss chance, and being able to target someone with Displacement normally and having a 50% miss chance? Being able to target someone normally has got to mean something. And that something is being able to target them for precision damage.
snakeman830 07-17-07, 11:34 AM	No, it doesn't. Displacement provides a miss chance that works like concealment, but isn't actually concealment. I already pointed this out once, and so did Leilond and Empiro. I guess you must have missed every single one of these posts somehow. :P Minor Cloak of Displacement. Blur effect. It was mentioned before that Blur does give concealment, even if Displacement doesn't.
Frugal 07-17-07, 11:45 AM	I think it comes down to how you interpret "as if it had total concealment" and, "displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally." On the one hand, you can argue that it grants all the effects of total concealment, as it does state, except you can still be targeted (which is normally prevented by total concealment). On the other, you can argue that "targeting the creature normally" includes the ability to discern their anatomy enough to do a sneak attack. Honestly, I don't see a clear indication one way or the other given the way it's written.
DocBeard 07-17-07, 12:35 PM	It's not absurd at all, DocBeard. We could go around in circles about this for ages, you saying it's not, and my saying it is, so let's just save some time and agree that I'm right. :) What's the difference between not being able to target someone with total concealment and having a 50% miss chance, and being able to target someone with Displacement normally and having a 50% miss chance? Being able to target someone normally has got to mean something. And that something is being able to target them for precision damage. You can target someone with concealment (but not total concealment) normally. Meaning you can actually attack them (rather than just the square they're in and hope for the best), target them with spells, etc. This doesn't mean you can sneak-attack them. Man, this all would have been a lot easier if they'd just described Displacement as "It's like Blur, but you get a 50% miss chance."
StalkerEntreri 07-17-07, 03:05 PM	Well I'm not sure what kind of character you want but if you have a character that has a couple of extra feats you can take Tomb-Tainted Soul, and then Tomb-Born Fortitude and you will have a 25% chance of ignoring crits and sneak attacks Those feats are both in Libris Mortis, Tomb-Tainted Soul is a requirement and if you take them both you will be healed by negative energy and have a 25% chance of ignoring criticals (Which leads me to think that if you were a fighter with a cleric in your group that channels negative instead of positive energy it would be a good feat to take anyway)
bigbythewise 07-17-07, 03:27 PM	I think it comes down to how you interpret "as if it had total concealment" and, "displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally." On the one hand, you can argue that it grants all the effects of total concealment, as it does state, except you can still be targeted (which is normally prevented by total concealment). On the other, you can argue that "targeting the creature normally" includes the ability to discern their anatomy enough to do a sneak attack. Honestly, I don't see a clear indication one way or the other given the way it's written. Well said. Agree.
Dheran 07-17-07, 08:51 PM	You can target someone with concealment (but not total concealment) normally. Meaning you can actually attack them (rather than just the square they're in and hope for the best), target them with spells, etc. This doesn't mean you can sneak-attack them. What does this have to do with the question I asked? I was asking about total concealment:What's the difference between not being able to target someone with total concealment and having a 50% miss chance, and being able to target someone with Displacement normally and having a 50% miss chance? Do you have any answer? Because my answer is that the difference is that you can target someone with Displacement for precision damage.
Leilond 07-18-07, 03:06 AM	I think it comes down to how you interpret "as if it had total concealment" and, "displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally." On the one hand, you can argue that it grants all the effects of total concealment, as it does state, except you can still be targeted (which is normally prevented by total concealment). On the other, you can argue that "targeting the creature normally" includes the ability to discern their anatomy enough to do a sneak attack. Honestly, I don't see a clear indication one way or the other given the way it's written. It is written you obtain the 50% miss chance "as if it had total concealment". The sentence is referred to the "50% miss chance" and only to that. It doesn't say you gain other concealment benefit. It define and report the only concealment benefit you recive: 50% miss chance Thus you cannot use that to save from sneak attack. We must remember that special "benefit" must be always specified, and aren't gained by "similitude". And, to clarify it more, it report that you can be "targette normally". Normally, without specific restriction, like everyone else It is written "you are considered to have total concealment except that you can be seen and targetted" It is written that you gain 50% miss chance as you had total concealment. The manual report the only concealment benefit you obtain from that spell
Nom 07-18-07, 05:28 PM	The blindfighting feat prevents you from losing your Dex bonus to AC when being attacked by opponents you can't see. This feat will thus keep you from being snuck attacked by hidden and/or invisible foes.... in melee. Blind-fight provides no benefits offensively or defensively at range.
Nom 07-18-07, 11:45 PM	I think it comes down to how you interpret "as if it had total concealment" and, "displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally."On this, I agree with DocBeard. By "target the creature normally" they literally mean "target", not "attack". You can attack it with targeted spells, and you don't have to pick a square to attack. On the other, you can argue that "targeting the creature normally" includes the ability to discern their anatomy enough to do a sneak attack.Although the flavour text would read pretty strongly against this. Otherwise, one is effectively saying: "You only know approximately where the creature actually is (appears displaced up to 2 ft. from it's actual location), but you can still aim well enough to pick out a vital spot.". That's just silly.
Polaris 07-19-07, 01:57 AM	... in melee. Blind-fight provides no benefits offensively or defensively at range. True. Forgot that detail. Of course I'd much rather have Uncanny Dodge than Blind-Fight anyway, but the OP did ask for ways to fight sneak attack. -Polaris
Dheran 07-19-07, 11:52 AM	Otherwise, one is effectively saying: "You only know approximately where the creature actually is (appears displaced up to 2 ft. from it's actual location), but you can still aim well enough to pick out a vital spot.". That's just silly. Perplexing, I'll admit. Not impossible, though, given the square grid that maps the D&D world of combat actions: maybe Displacement follows that pattern, too. So if the target were displaced left-right a slashing attack will still hit the right vital location (just a bit earlier or later), but miss if they were displaced front-back. And a piercing attack will hit the intended spot a bit earlier or later if the displacement is front-back, but miss if the displacement is left-right. It's a 50% chance to miss, or 50% to target the intended vulnerable location. Remember, Displacement just says the target is displaced 2'. It doesn't say the displacement is in a random direction.
bigbythewise 07-19-07, 03:39 PM	Remember, Displacement just says the target is displaced 2'. It doesn't say the displacement is in a random direction. That's true indeed. A solid argument and pretty enough for me to be convinced. :cool:
Meep326 07-22-07, 02:19 AM	It't not a matter of "like", it's a matter of RULES DMG, page 219 It isn't a matter of "interpretation", it is plain written My problem with it is the fact that it removes things like death effects, vorpal, etc.
Tallow 07-22-07, 02:48 PM	It's not absurd at all, DocBeard. What's the difference between not being able to target someone with total concealment and having a 50% miss chance, and being able to target someone with Displacement normally and having a 50% miss chance? Being able to target someone normally has got to mean something. And that something is being able to target them for precision damage. I agree with this assessment after seeing the quoted RAW on both effects. I see the creature in all his glory. He just appears to be somewhere he is not. But if i get past the 50% miss chance, then I hit my targeted location of precision. Thus I get my sneak attack. Makes sense to me.