Snowcasting & Piercing Cold [Archive] - Wizards Community

Snowcasting & Piercing Cold [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Monnikje
05-16-07, 09:39 AM Hi all!

I have a question about two feats from Frostburn: Snowcasting & Piercing Cold.

Let me give the descriptions of the feats:

Snowcasting [General]
You add ice or snow to your spell's components to make them more powerfull.
Prerequisite: Con 13
Benefit: If you add a handfull of snow or ice as an additional material component to a spell when you cast it, the spell gains the cold descriptor. This does not actually change the nature of the spell you cast; a fireball cast with this feat still deals fire damage, but since it also carries the cold descriptor, it can be augmented by a number of feats listed in this chapter, such as Cold Focus and Frozen Magic.
If you add a handful of snow or ice as an additional material component to a spell when you cast it and that spell already has the cold descriptor, you increase the effective level of the spell being cast by +1.
Adding this additional material component requires you to spend a move action immediately before the spell is cast to gather fresh snow or ice from the surrounding environment. This snow or ice can be magically created by a conjuration spell, but no other ice manifested by a spell will do. You may take no other action between gathering the snow or ice and casting the spell.

Piercing Cold [Metamagic]
Your cold spells are so cold that they can damage creatures normally resistant or immune to cold.
Benefit: You can only apply this metamagic feat to spells with the cold descriptor. Piercing cold spells are so horribly cold that they are capable of damaging creatures normally unharmed by or resistant to cold. Piercing cold spells completely ignore any resistance to cold a creature possesses, bypassing this resistance and dealing damage to the target as if it did not possess any resistance to cold at all. They are still entitled to whatever other defences the attack allows (such as saving throws and spell resistance).
Creatures normally immune to cold can be damaged by piercing cold spells as well. Piercing cold spells deal half damage to these creatures (or one-quarter on a succesful saving throw).
For example, Mialee casts a piercing cold cone of cold at a night hag, a creature normally immune to cold. She makes her level check to penetrate the night hag's spell resistance, but the night hag makes her reflex save against the spell. Mialee rolls the dice, and her cone of cold deals 42 points of cold damage; since the night hag made her save, the damage is halved to 21 points. This damage is then halved again (since the night hag is normally immune to cold), and 10 points of cold damage are actually dealt to the night hag, who is both shocked and enraged at this unexpected turn of events.
Creatures with the cold subtype can tell that a piercing cold spell is colder than normal, but they remain undamaged by the attack.
Creatures with the fire subtype who are damaged by a piercing cold spell take double damage instead of the usual +50%.
A piercing cold spell uses a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

Suppose you are a druid lvl 13, so you have a lvl 7 spell slot. You use it for a Piercing Cold Fire Seeds. Then you encounter a Fire Elemental, who has the fire subtype. You use the Holly Berry Bombs option from the spell and squeese those eight bombs in his face. The damage that the fire seeds normally would deal to a creature is 8 * (1d8 + 13) = 8d8 + 104, which gives an average of 140 damage. Normally, the fire elemental wouldn't be impressed, because it is a fire spell and he is immune to fire.
Ok, now my questions. You use this Piercing Cold Fire Seeds.
A) Will they do damage to the fire elemental? If so, should we double the damage since the fire elemental has the fire subtype? That means that you deal 280 damage.
B) What if a creature is not of the fire subtype, but has a fire immunity? How do you deal with Piercing Cold Fire Spells?

Thanks in advantage!

Greets,
Monnikje
Puca
05-16-07, 10:10 AM A) Will they do damage to the fire elemental? If so, should we double the damage since the fire elemental has the fire subtype? That means that you deal 280 damage.
B) What if a creature is not of the fire subtype, but has a fire immunity? How do you deal with Piercing Cold Fire Spells?
Do your fire seeds still do fire damage? Yes. Does Piercing Cold make things immune to fire vulnerable to fire? No. Your fire elemental takes no damage.

Creatures with the fire subtype who are damaged by a piercing cold spell take double damage instead of the usual +50%.The hypothetical fire elemental is not taking the "usual +50%" here. So no, it isnt going to double. The text of this feat assumes, erroneously as you have pointed out, that the spell to which Piercing Cold is applied is going to do cold damage. But that doesnt mean this combo can be used to make anything vulnerable to any energy type.

P.S. You might want to avoid posting the full text of feats that are not Open Content. It could get you in trouble.
Monnikje
05-16-07, 10:15 AM Ok, thanks. That clearly answers it all :).
Kyaran
05-16-07, 04:52 PM Actually, the problem is that Snowcasting applies the descriptor at time of cast, so you can't prepare a spell with Piercing Cold that doesn't have [Cold] as a base descriptor.

Technically, Snowcasting a Fireball at said elemental would indeed do extra damage (+50% because it's a [Cold] spell), all of which the elemental is immune to (because it's fire damage).
ShinAkuma2
05-16-07, 05:51 PM Darn, Kyaran beat me to it.

I was going to say exactly the same things, and so I will instead lend my support in saying that his post is correct.

However, I would like to add that a Spontaneous Caster should be able to make a Snowcasted Piercing Cold [Non-Cold] spell, since his metamagic feats are applied during casting, and Snowcasting is done immediately beforehand.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Monnikje 05-16-07, 09:39 AM	Hi all! I have a question about two feats from Frostburn: Snowcasting & Piercing Cold. Let me give the descriptions of the feats: Snowcasting [General] You add ice or snow to your spell's components to make them more powerfull. Prerequisite: Con 13 Benefit: If you add a handfull of snow or ice as an additional material component to a spell when you cast it, the spell gains the cold descriptor. This does not actually change the nature of the spell you cast; a fireball cast with this feat still deals fire damage, but since it also carries the cold descriptor, it can be augmented by a number of feats listed in this chapter, such as Cold Focus and Frozen Magic. If you add a handful of snow or ice as an additional material component to a spell when you cast it and that spell already has the cold descriptor, you increase the effective level of the spell being cast by +1. Adding this additional material component requires you to spend a move action immediately before the spell is cast to gather fresh snow or ice from the surrounding environment. This snow or ice can be magically created by a conjuration spell, but no other ice manifested by a spell will do. You may take no other action between gathering the snow or ice and casting the spell. Piercing Cold [Metamagic] Your cold spells are so cold that they can damage creatures normally resistant or immune to cold. Benefit: You can only apply this metamagic feat to spells with the cold descriptor. Piercing cold spells are so horribly cold that they are capable of damaging creatures normally unharmed by or resistant to cold. Piercing cold spells completely ignore any resistance to cold a creature possesses, bypassing this resistance and dealing damage to the target as if it did not possess any resistance to cold at all. They are still entitled to whatever other defences the attack allows (such as saving throws and spell resistance). Creatures normally immune to cold can be damaged by piercing cold spells as well. Piercing cold spells deal half damage to these creatures (or one-quarter on a succesful saving throw). For example, Mialee casts a piercing cold cone of cold at a night hag, a creature normally immune to cold. She makes her level check to penetrate the night hag's spell resistance, but the night hag makes her reflex save against the spell. Mialee rolls the dice, and her cone of cold deals 42 points of cold damage; since the night hag made her save, the damage is halved to 21 points. This damage is then halved again (since the night hag is normally immune to cold), and 10 points of cold damage are actually dealt to the night hag, who is both shocked and enraged at this unexpected turn of events. Creatures with the cold subtype can tell that a piercing cold spell is colder than normal, but they remain undamaged by the attack. Creatures with the fire subtype who are damaged by a piercing cold spell take double damage instead of the usual +50%. A piercing cold spell uses a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level. Suppose you are a druid lvl 13, so you have a lvl 7 spell slot. You use it for a Piercing Cold Fire Seeds. Then you encounter a Fire Elemental, who has the fire subtype. You use the Holly Berry Bombs option from the spell and squeese those eight bombs in his face. The damage that the fire seeds normally would deal to a creature is 8 * (1d8 + 13) = 8d8 + 104, which gives an average of 140 damage. Normally, the fire elemental wouldn't be impressed, because it is a fire spell and he is immune to fire. Ok, now my questions. You use this Piercing Cold Fire Seeds. A) Will they do damage to the fire elemental? If so, should we double the damage since the fire elemental has the fire subtype? That means that you deal 280 damage. B) What if a creature is not of the fire subtype, but has a fire immunity? How do you deal with Piercing Cold Fire Spells? Thanks in advantage! Greets, Monnikje
Puca 05-16-07, 10:10 AM	A) Will they do damage to the fire elemental? If so, should we double the damage since the fire elemental has the fire subtype? That means that you deal 280 damage. B) What if a creature is not of the fire subtype, but has a fire immunity? How do you deal with Piercing Cold Fire Spells? Do your fire seeds still do fire damage? Yes. Does Piercing Cold make things immune to fire vulnerable to fire? No. Your fire elemental takes no damage. Creatures with the fire subtype who are damaged by a piercing cold spell take double damage instead of the usual +50%.The hypothetical fire elemental is not taking the "usual +50%" here. So no, it isnt going to double. The text of this feat assumes, erroneously as you have pointed out, that the spell to which Piercing Cold is applied is going to do cold damage. But that doesnt mean this combo can be used to make anything vulnerable to any energy type. P.S. You might want to avoid posting the full text of feats that are not Open Content. It could get you in trouble.
Monnikje 05-16-07, 10:15 AM	Ok, thanks. That clearly answers it all :).
Kyaran 05-16-07, 04:52 PM	Actually, the problem is that Snowcasting applies the descriptor at time of cast, so you can't prepare a spell with Piercing Cold that doesn't have [Cold] as a base descriptor. Technically, Snowcasting a Fireball at said elemental would indeed do extra damage (+50% because it's a [Cold] spell), all of which the elemental is immune to (because it's fire damage).
ShinAkuma2 05-16-07, 05:51 PM	Darn, Kyaran beat me to it. I was going to say exactly the same things, and so I will instead lend my support in saying that his post is correct. However, I would like to add that a Spontaneous Caster should be able to make a Snowcasted Piercing Cold [Non-Cold] spell, since his metamagic feats are applied during casting, and Snowcasting is done immediately beforehand.