Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saytr 05-09-07, 04:19 AM	.. I can grab a Nightstick and turn like a 20th level Cleric, right? Or if I had another item that gave me an extra use of a class ability I could wildshape into a huge creature, sing a mass suggestion, that kind of thing. Is it legal? If so, what items/class features would be best? Druids Vestment 10k/ Wildshape ~
Merestil Haye 05-09-07, 04:55 AM	.. I can grab a Nightstick and turn like a 20th level Cleric, right? Or if I had another item that gave me an extra use of a class ability I could wildshape into a huge creature, sing a mass suggestion, that kind of thing. Is it legal? If so, what items/class features would be best? Druids Vestment 10k/ Wildshape ~No. The rules now do not allow you to establish an emulated class level. The mechanism was deliberately removed in the changeover to 3.5. If you succeed in emulating a class feature, the item reacts as if you have it. If you must actually use the feature to get a benefit, nothing happens because your emulated class level is "-" (ie it's something the game can't read.)
tarkin 05-09-07, 03:39 PM	Merestil Haye is correct. The basic thing is UMD lets you ACTIVATE magic items. It does not let you get better than the bare minimum to activate it. Use Magic Devices does not in any way let you 'Emulating a level'. Instead it lets you "Use a scroll" or "Emulate a Class Feature", and those processes are harder to do if the level requirement is higher. But it NEVER lets you emulate a level.
Saytr 05-09-07, 07:06 PM	Emulate a Class Feature Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). ~from the SRD Seems like it does. I have a nightstick. I can't activate it. I don't have turn undead as a class feature. Luckily, I can use UMD to emulate a class feature. It lets me activate the item as if I had the class feature. My effective level in the emulated class equals my UMD check minus 20. My UMD check is *rolls* .. 40! I turn like a 20th level Cleric. What's your sorce for thinking otherwise, gentlemen? ~
AtmaWeapon 05-09-07, 07:22 PM	Because emulating a class feature doesn't let you USE that feature. The nightstick doesn't turn undead, *you* do. The nightstick just lets you do it more.
Fiddletink 05-10-07, 05:03 AM	if it says it allows you to use it an extra 1/day, 0 times +1/day from the item being convinced you are supposed to be able to use it that way Does logically have the end result of 1/day you can make a UMD check, using the result-20 to convince the item that is the level of the bonus it is granting, then use that bonus effect. Not going to work my head around it right now, but I do see the logic to your question... for those that do not, the item Grants an Extra 1/day Turn Undead (as the item is convinced he already turns undead as a lvl 20 cleric, that bonus 1/day turn attempt granted should be as a lvl 20 cleric) Normally such an item would only give it's bonus to someone with Turn Undead already, but it does Give the character the ability to use it 1 more time per day than they would normally be able to (in the case of a rogue, 1 more than their 0 uses per day, is 1)
tarkin 05-10-07, 12:31 PM	Seems like it does. I have a nightstick. I can't activate it. I don't have turn undead as a class feature. Luckily, I can use UMD to emulate a class feature. It lets me activate the item as if I had the class feature. My effective level in the emulated class equals my UMD check minus 20. My UMD check is *rolls* .. 40! I turn like a 20th level Cleric. What's your sorce for thinking otherwise, gentlemen? ~ The same thing you quoted. Only we READ ALL of it, not just the parts you like to misquote. Try paying attention the parts of UMD I bolded: Use Magic Device (Cha; Trained Only) Use this skill to activate magic Check You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment. You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour. You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below. ... Emulate a Class Feature Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). ... Point 1. You use it activate a magic item. NOTHING MORE. Point 2. You are totally misreading the word EMULATE to mean "I tempoarily have this thing I am emulating." No. If a magic item requires you to have the ability Wildshape, then you can emulate Wildshape to let you acutally use the item, but that does NOT mean you can now turn into a frog using Emulated Wildshape. Emulating an ability does not grant you the ability. It lets you PRETEND to have the ability, only for the purpose of activating a magic item. That is all the skill does Point 3. You are NOT even emulating the actual level. You are instead Emulating a class feature, and for the purposes of this emulation (which ONLY lets you activate the magic item), your effective level is depenendent on the roll you make. Net Net: 1. You do NOT have any levels. 2. You have emulated a class feature, which allows you to pretend to have that feature for purposes of activating a magic item ONLY. 3. For class features that have a level requirement, then your 'effective level', not your real level is determined by the roll. 4. Just as you do not actually get the class feature you do not actually get the level. The only thing you get is the right to activate the magic item as IF you had that number of levels for that class feature. Anyone can activate a nightstick. It does NOT have a requirement such as scrolls that only certain people can use them. Thus UMD does nothing for the Nightstick at all. It looks at your real caster levell, not you effective class level. Similarly, when you use a staff, you get the default caster level, not the emulated one. Any other answer is bullcrap. It's the same as claiming you can Emulate Wildshape and turn into a Bear.
tricky_bob 05-10-07, 12:50 PM	The same thing you quoted. Only we READ ALL of it, not just the parts you like to misquote. Try paying attention the parts of UMD I bolded: Point 1. You use it activate a magic item. NOTHING MORE. Point 2. You are totally misreading the word EMULATE to mean "I tempoarily have this thing I am emulating." No. If a magic item requires you to have the ability Wildshape, then you can emulate Wildshape to let you acutally use the item, but that does NOT mean you can now turn into a frog using Emulated Wildshape. Emulating an ability does not grant you the ability. It lets you PRETEND to have the ability, only for the purpose of activating a magic item. That is all the skill does Point 3. You are NOT even emulating the actual level. You are instead Emulating a class feature, and for the purposes of this emulation (which ONLY lets you activate the magic item), your effective level is depenendent on the roll you make. Net Net: 1. You do NOT have any levels. 2. You have emulated a class feature, which allows you to pretend to have that feature for purposes of activating a magic item ONLY. 3. For class features that have a level requirement, then your 'effective level', not your real level is determined by the roll. 4. Just as you do not actually get the class feature you do not actually get the level. The only thing you get is the right to activate the magic item as IF you had that number of levels for that class feature. Anyone can activate a nightstick. It does NOT have a requirement such as scrolls that only certain people can use them. Thus UMD does nothing for the Nightstick at all. It looks at your real caster levell, not you effective class level. Similarly, when you use a staff, you get the default caster level, not the emulated one. Any other answer is bullcrap. It's the same as claiming you can Emulate Wildshape and turn into a Bear. nah, you lost me there dude....can you say that again...:D :D :D
Someone 05-10-07, 12:56 PM	Clerics gain turn undead at 1st level, so the DC to emulate that ability is just 21. Going higher than that doesn't really work because there is no such class feature "20th level undead turning". Emulating a class feature is a "yes/no", not a "how much?".
UndeadViking 05-10-07, 01:41 PM	I don't believe you can use the Nightstick because all it does is allow a character that already has the turn undead ability to turn undead more times per day. You don't have the turn undead ability, so you can't use it. However, if you found a magic item that gives you the ability to turn undead, period, then I think UMD would allow you to use it. I see where the confusion is, though, because *I think* you can use UMD to activate a wand of fireball even if you don't have the ability to cast arcane spells. However, a wand of metamagic (empower spell) would not allow you to cast empowered arcane spells unless you can already cast arcane spells.
Saytr 05-11-07, 02:00 AM	So.. in order to use the magic device you can use a skill called use magic device. It allows you to use a magic device. OK.. here I go.. I'm activating the Nightstick. I'm using the magic device. It thinks I'm a cleric.. Let's see.. you activate it, then it does what it says in the item description because that's how magic items work. Hey look! It's giving me a turning attempt. Because that's what happens when you use a Nightstick. :rolleyes: Tarkin, guys, etc, I'm not asking you your thoughts on whether it's legal or not. I'm asking: If you know any rulings/clarifications/errata or sorce thereof to, please, pass that along. We can all read around here and I'm not asking anyone to DM. I AM asking your thoughts on items that would be good to use. Items that give you a use of a class ability. I wanted to post in skills/ feats first and then in items/equipment. ~
Anathema 05-11-07, 02:21 AM	The nightstick doesn't give you a turning attempt, it allows you to use your turning ability more often. UMD doesn't allow you to use the turning ability, it allows you to trick a magic item blah blah... I think that's your disconnect. You are attempting to interpret the power that the item gives you is a class ability, it does not, it only allows you to use your class ability more often; and as you cannot actually use the class ability you are emulating with UMD, using UMD in this way does not allow you to turn undead where you could not before. I hope this helps :)
KurenaiYami 05-11-07, 02:30 AM	Tarkin, guys, etc, I'm not asking you your thoughts on whether it's legal or not. I'm asking: If you know any rulings/clarifications/errata or sorce thereof to, please, pass that along. I don't think it needs any clarification/errata, seeing as your the first person I've seen to misread it. That's just me though. We can all read around here Or so you say. It doesn't matter if the Nightstick thinks you have Turn Undead. You don't. It's really that simple. Just because you trick the magic item doesn't mean you tricked the fabric of reality into believe you.
AtmaWeapon 05-11-07, 02:31 AM	Tarkin, guys, etc, I'm not asking you your thoughts on whether it's legal or not. I'm asking: If you know any rulings/clarifications/errata or sorce thereof to, please, pass that along. We can all read around here and I'm not asking anyone to DM. Rulings, Clarification and/or Errata are not needed. You lack the ability to Turn Undead. Since you cannot Turn Undead, being able to Turn Undead 4x more per day does not matter. No matter what you roll on UMD, you do not possess the ability to Turn Undead - end of story. You possess the Turn Undead ability ONLY for the purpose of activating the magical item. Since activating a nightstick does not actually do anything, you gain no benefit. The Nightstick does not Turn Undead, it only grants you the capability to do it 1x more per day. Since you can't do it to begin with, being able to do it an additional time is meaningless, because you can't do it! Sorry, but I am kind of tired of people asking for official rules errata or clarifications when they are simply not needed. Being able to use Turn Undead 4x more per day does not do anything if you cannot Turn Undead at all. If they had an official rules clarification or errata on everything that was common sense, then the errata document would be larger then the Player's Handbook.
Lucas Blackstone 05-11-07, 02:38 AM	So.. in order to use the magic device you can use a skill called use magic device. It allows you to use a magic device. OK.. here I go.. I'm activating the Nightstick. I'm using the magic device. It thinks I'm a cleric.. Let's see.. you activate it, then it does what it says in the item description because that's how magic items work. Hey look! It's giving me a turning attempt. Because that's what happens when you use a Nightstick. ~ The above example is incorrect. The Nightstick does not give you the ability to turn creatures. It augments an ability that you don't have. When you convince the Nightstick that you have the ability, you still don't have it actually. The Nightstick just thinks you do. Nowhere under the Nightstick description is the ability to turn creatures given. Under your logic if a lich puts on a +2 con item, he now has a con score of 2, which is not true. He still has a " - " for Con. The Con item does not give the user an ability score he doesn't have, it adds to something they do have. ( Whoops, Atma explained it above.)
Saytr 05-12-07, 04:26 AM	So we're saying that my cleric can take a Nightstick and use it to turn 4 extra times or DMM maximize a spell and then just hand it to my buddy's cleric who can use it to turn 4x times and he can hand it off, etc. and ANY number of clerics can use it to get 4 more turns in a day. Wow, it's better than I thought it was :D I assume I can do this with a Druids Vestment too :dancin:
Merestil Haye 05-12-07, 06:02 AM	So we're saying that my cleric can take a Nightstick and use it to turn 4 extra times or DMM maximize a spell and then just hand it to my buddy's cleric who can use it to turn 4x times and he can hand it off, etc. and ANY number of clerics can use it to get 4 more turns in a day.Well, yes and no. The Nightstick does not hold charges. It's like a movable Extra Turning feat. You track how many times the cleric can turn, and how many he has turned. The Nightstick is only useful to a cleric who uses it to exceed the number of times he could Turn Undead without the Nightstick. If a cleric has five Turn attempts, takes possession of a Nightstick, uses DMM to Maximise a spell then hands the Nightstick on, he has one Turn attempt left for the day. If (on the other hand) he gets the Nightstick back later, he can then Maximise another spell because he has enough remaining Turn attempts to do so. I assume I can do this with a Druids Vestment too :dancin:Yes, but the same restriction applies. It doesn't give the wearer one "charge" which he can then use up. leaving his own Wildshape uses intact. It increases the number of times he can use the ability while he is wearing it.
Linklegacy77 05-12-07, 12:56 PM	To simply what Merestil Haye said, the bonus turn attempts from a nighstick are added in last, like a barbarian's temporary hit points.
AtmaWeapon 05-12-07, 01:45 PM	For the love of all things holy, Nightsticks are already so full of cheese they might as well be made of a sharp cheddar...
EternalZzyx 05-12-07, 01:59 PM	Emulate a Class Feature Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). ~from the SRD Seems like it does. + some formatting by me Here, in big bold letters in your own quote, is the rule that says you can't. So, seems like it doesn't. Rule 1 when quoting the SRD, read the SRD.