Some Sleight of Hand Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Some Sleight of Hand Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ThorGuy
09-11-07, 10:03 AM Hello everybody, I've recently been making a rogue for an upcoming campaign, but I've been somewhat baffled by the rules for Sleight of Hand (SoH). I've read the entry several times, but there seem some things that don't make sense or need clarifying.

1) The entry makes it sound like when someones frisking you for a concealed weapon, their search check is opposed by your sleight of hand check. I can see why this would make sense if you hid it while in their presence, because better SoH would allow you to hide it better without their noticing; but what about if you hid the dagger in advance? In this case it makes no sense for SoH to be the dominant skill.

2) Related to 1) above, there's a search skill for finding objects, but what skill governs hiding objects? I'm sure there must be a skill I've forgotten about. (obviously, it's not the deceptively named hide, because that governs hiding yourself.)

3) Picking pockets. A DC 20 check allows you to pick someones pocket, right? If so, are there any more specific rules than this, or is adjudicating it up to the DM?

4) How useful is SoH in general? My rogue is a human and has an intelligence of 16, so he has skill points up the wahoo, but my DM tends to use a lot of Jump/Climb/Swim/etc., so a fair portion of my points are devoted to "non-rogue" skills. For example, are maxed Spot and Listen more important than partial ranks in spot and listen and maxed sleight of hand?
Lord_Cronos
09-11-07, 10:32 AM Hello everybody, I've recently been making a rogue for an upcoming campaign, but I've been somewhat baffled by the rules for Sleight of Hand (SoH). I've read the entry several times, but there seem some things that don't make sense or need clarifying.

1) The entry makes it sound like when someones frisking you for a concealed weapon, their search check is opposed by your sleight of hand check. I can see why this would make sense if you hid it while in their presence, because better SoH would allow you to hide it better without their noticing; but what about if you hid the dagger in advance? In this case it makes no sense for SoH to be the dominant skill.

2) Related to 1) above, there's a search skill for finding objects, but what skill governs hiding objects? I'm sure there must be a skill I've forgotten about. (obviously, it's not the deceptively named hide, because that governs hiding yourself.)

3) Picking pockets. A DC 20 check allows you to pick someones pocket, right? If so, are there any more specific rules than this, or is adjudicating it up to the DM?

4) How useful is SoH in general? My rogue is a human and has an intelligence of 16, so he has skill points up the wahoo, but my DM tends to use a lot of Jump/Climb/Swim/etc., so a fair portion of my points are devoted to "non-rogue" skills. For example, are maxed Spot and Listen more important than partial ranks in spot and listen and maxed sleight of hand?

1. very true my group thought the same we use hide instead for things like that.
2. we use hide for this also.

3. It's totally up to the Dm

4. I always max my spot, search and listen and then deal with jump, climb, swim.
Dheran
09-11-07, 10:44 AM 1) The entry makes it sound like when someones frisking you for a concealed weapon, their search check is opposed by your sleight of hand check. I can see why this would make sense if you hid it while in their presence, because better SoH would allow you to hide it better without their noticing; but what about if you hid the dagger in advance? In this case it makes no sense for SoH to be the dominant skill. Yes, it still makes sense, because while being frisked you're actively trying to use your hands (and other parts of your body) to subtly shift things so that the frisking person doesn't find what you've hidden.
2) Related to 1) above, there's a search skill for finding objects, but what skill governs hiding objects? I'm sure there must be a skill I've forgotten about. (obviously, it's not the deceptively named hide, because that governs hiding yourself.) If you're hiding objects on your person, it's Sleight of Hand. Elsewhere it's Hide. Spot is the skill used to notice objects, as this basic skill example indicates:Difficulty DC: Very easy (0): Notice something large in plain sight (Spot) And since Hide is the skill used to oppose Spot, that's the skill you use to conceal objects that aren't on your person.
3) Picking pockets. A DC 20 check allows you to pick someones pocket, right? If so, are there any more specific rules than this, or is adjudicating it up to the DM? That's the basic check. The DM adds circumstance modifiers as appropriate to represent favorable and unfavorable conditions.
4) How useful is SoH in general? My rogue is a human and has an intelligence of 16, so he has skill points up the wahoo, but my DM tends to use a lot of Jump/Climb/Swim/etc., so a fair portion of my points are devoted to "non-rogue" skills. For example, are maxed Spot and Listen more important than partial ranks in spot and listen and maxed sleight of hand? This will depend on both your DM and you. If you only make reactive checks (i.e., when the DM tells you to) then you should pay attention to what works in your campaign and put your skill points there. But whenever there are set DCs you should be able to control your own destiny to a much greater degree; it's up to you to specify what actions your character is taking, and have the skill modifiers to succeed at those actions. Personally I really like to use Sleight of Hand in combat, knowing that the DM will impose significant circumstance penalties for such operations. But stealing an enemy's holy symbol or spell pouch can make a difference, and depositing a bit of lint with Silence cast on it in a spellcaster's pocket is huge.
Griffonos
09-11-07, 05:02 PM I agree with Dheran about using SoH for frisking and other similar search checks and what he said about SoH vs. Hide.

Picking pockets would be be subject to applied circumstances. I would think that a NPC with high spot or if you're in a relatively open space would raise the difficulty. Things like the NPC being intoxicated or being in a crowded space would make it easier.

I personally use SoH quite often on my bard. I often keep a dagger or hand crossbow hidden on me even in places where I'm not allowed to have it (such as visits to Royal palaces and such).
Nephlite
09-11-07, 06:07 PM I agree with Dheran about using SoH for frisking and other similar search checks and what he said about SoH vs. Hide.

Picking pockets would be be subject to applied circumstances. I would think that a NPC with high spot or if you're in a relatively open space would raise the difficulty. Things like the NPC being intoxicated or being in a crowded space would make it easier.

No, Spot is just to see if they notice. DC 20 is required to take it. I mean, you can add rules, but that isn't what it says.
Vharuck
09-11-07, 06:13 PM Hello everybody, I've recently been making a rogue for an upcoming campaign, but I've been somewhat baffled by the rules for Sleight of Hand (SoH). I've read the entry several times, but there seem some things that don't make sense or need clarifying.

1) The entry makes it sound like when someones frisking you for a concealed weapon, their search check is opposed by your sleight of hand check. I can see why this would make sense if you hid it while in their presence, because better SoH would allow you to hide it better without their noticing; but what about if you hid the dagger in advance? In this case it makes no sense for SoH to be the dominant skill.

2) Related to 1) above, there's a search skill for finding objects, but what skill governs hiding objects? I'm sure there must be a skill I've forgotten about. (obviously, it's not the deceptively named hide, because that governs hiding yourself.)

I'll answer both of these together. What I notice is that, in the first question and thought, you justify removing SoH as the skill for hiding objects on one's body, but then in the second part you seem to be at a loss as to what skill would be used when hiding something on one's body. This leaves us with either one of two options: create a new skill more along the lines of doing this, or choose an existing skill that could be stretched a little to use when doing this. Creating a new skill is not suggested, especially for something as specific as this, and choosing a preexisting skill is, IMO, just what the developers did.

SoH isn't just picking pockets. At heart, it represents those neat parlor tricks magicians do. When learning to do these tricks, one learns how to keep objects on one's body in such a way that the audience can't see them. That seems pretty straightforward to me. I'd say SoH is the perfect skill.

And as for using secret pockets and everything, that's what circumstance modifiers are for. However, a person skilled in SoH knows how to best stuff small objects in his cloak so as to be unnoticable even when he moves.

3) Picking pockets. A DC 20 check allows you to pick someones pocket, right? If so, are there any more specific rules than this, or is adjudicating it up to the DM?

Other than the item's owner making an opposed Spot check to notice your thievery, nothing official. This is definitely a situation that could benefit from a DM's adjustments when appropriate.

4) How useful is SoH in general? My rogue is a human and has an intelligence of 16, so he has skill points up the wahoo, but my DM tends to use a lot of Jump/Climb/Swim/etc., so a fair portion of my points are devoted to "non-rogue" skills. For example, are maxed Spot and Listen more important than partial ranks in spot and listen and maxed sleight of hand?

I wouldn't max SoH, but it is one of those skills that, when the situation arrives, becomes very valuable. Also, note that it's a trained-only skill, so no ranks means you can't do anything with a check DC over 10.
imakuni67
09-11-07, 07:00 PM You can hide with a dagger with a +4 bonus and then whip it out in sneak attack with it.
ThorGuy
09-11-07, 07:29 PM Dheren, I really like your ideas for using it in combat. I think I'll try using them with my character. Vharuk, you have a good point about how hiding objects would be mapped to SoH; incidentally, your explanation would make it impossible to take twenty on such a check. Thanks for all your replies; I think you've answered all my questions.
Tedronai
09-12-07, 12:01 AM Taking 20 implies that you try many times and fail before you eventually achieve the best possible result available at your level of skill (as if you had simply rolled a 20). For something like hiding an object on your body, this would not make sense, since, unless you have a way to determine how well you did (an observer with sufficient ranks in Spot that they will almost always see what you're doing, for instance), you won't be able to determine whether or not you could improve on your attempt.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ThorGuy 09-11-07, 10:03 AM	Hello everybody, I've recently been making a rogue for an upcoming campaign, but I've been somewhat baffled by the rules for Sleight of Hand (SoH). I've read the entry several times, but there seem some things that don't make sense or need clarifying. 1) The entry makes it sound like when someones frisking you for a concealed weapon, their search check is opposed by your sleight of hand check. I can see why this would make sense if you hid it while in their presence, because better SoH would allow you to hide it better without their noticing; but what about if you hid the dagger in advance? In this case it makes no sense for SoH to be the dominant skill. 2) Related to 1) above, there's a search skill for finding objects, but what skill governs hiding objects? I'm sure there must be a skill I've forgotten about. (obviously, it's not the deceptively named hide, because that governs hiding yourself.) 3) Picking pockets. A DC 20 check allows you to pick someones pocket, right? If so, are there any more specific rules than this, or is adjudicating it up to the DM? 4) How useful is SoH in general? My rogue is a human and has an intelligence of 16, so he has skill points up the wahoo, but my DM tends to use a lot of Jump/Climb/Swim/etc., so a fair portion of my points are devoted to "non-rogue" skills. For example, are maxed Spot and Listen more important than partial ranks in spot and listen and maxed sleight of hand?
Lord_Cronos 09-11-07, 10:32 AM	Hello everybody, I've recently been making a rogue for an upcoming campaign, but I've been somewhat baffled by the rules for Sleight of Hand (SoH). I've read the entry several times, but there seem some things that don't make sense or need clarifying. 1) The entry makes it sound like when someones frisking you for a concealed weapon, their search check is opposed by your sleight of hand check. I can see why this would make sense if you hid it while in their presence, because better SoH would allow you to hide it better without their noticing; but what about if you hid the dagger in advance? In this case it makes no sense for SoH to be the dominant skill. 2) Related to 1) above, there's a search skill for finding objects, but what skill governs hiding objects? I'm sure there must be a skill I've forgotten about. (obviously, it's not the deceptively named hide, because that governs hiding yourself.) 3) Picking pockets. A DC 20 check allows you to pick someones pocket, right? If so, are there any more specific rules than this, or is adjudicating it up to the DM? 4) How useful is SoH in general? My rogue is a human and has an intelligence of 16, so he has skill points up the wahoo, but my DM tends to use a lot of Jump/Climb/Swim/etc., so a fair portion of my points are devoted to "non-rogue" skills. For example, are maxed Spot and Listen more important than partial ranks in spot and listen and maxed sleight of hand? 1. very true my group thought the same we use hide instead for things like that. 2. we use hide for this also. 3. It's totally up to the Dm 4. I always max my spot, search and listen and then deal with jump, climb, swim.
Dheran 09-11-07, 10:44 AM	1) The entry makes it sound like when someones frisking you for a concealed weapon, their search check is opposed by your sleight of hand check. I can see why this would make sense if you hid it while in their presence, because better SoH would allow you to hide it better without their noticing; but what about if you hid the dagger in advance? In this case it makes no sense for SoH to be the dominant skill. Yes, it still makes sense, because while being frisked you're actively trying to use your hands (and other parts of your body) to subtly shift things so that the frisking person doesn't find what you've hidden. 2) Related to 1) above, there's a search skill for finding objects, but what skill governs hiding objects? I'm sure there must be a skill I've forgotten about. (obviously, it's not the deceptively named hide, because that governs hiding yourself.) If you're hiding objects on your person, it's Sleight of Hand. Elsewhere it's Hide. Spot is the skill used to notice objects, as this basic skill example indicates:Difficulty DC: Very easy (0): Notice something large in plain sight (Spot) And since Hide is the skill used to oppose Spot, that's the skill you use to conceal objects that aren't on your person. 3) Picking pockets. A DC 20 check allows you to pick someones pocket, right? If so, are there any more specific rules than this, or is adjudicating it up to the DM? That's the basic check. The DM adds circumstance modifiers as appropriate to represent favorable and unfavorable conditions. 4) How useful is SoH in general? My rogue is a human and has an intelligence of 16, so he has skill points up the wahoo, but my DM tends to use a lot of Jump/Climb/Swim/etc., so a fair portion of my points are devoted to "non-rogue" skills. For example, are maxed Spot and Listen more important than partial ranks in spot and listen and maxed sleight of hand? This will depend on both your DM and you. If you only make reactive checks (i.e., when the DM tells you to) then you should pay attention to what works in your campaign and put your skill points there. But whenever there are set DCs you should be able to control your own destiny to a much greater degree; it's up to you to specify what actions your character is taking, and have the skill modifiers to succeed at those actions. Personally I really like to use Sleight of Hand in combat, knowing that the DM will impose significant circumstance penalties for such operations. But stealing an enemy's holy symbol or spell pouch can make a difference, and depositing a bit of lint with Silence cast on it in a spellcaster's pocket is huge.
Griffonos 09-11-07, 05:02 PM	I agree with Dheran about using SoH for frisking and other similar search checks and what he said about SoH vs. Hide. Picking pockets would be be subject to applied circumstances. I would think that a NPC with high spot or if you're in a relatively open space would raise the difficulty. Things like the NPC being intoxicated or being in a crowded space would make it easier. I personally use SoH quite often on my bard. I often keep a dagger or hand crossbow hidden on me even in places where I'm not allowed to have it (such as visits to Royal palaces and such).
Nephlite 09-11-07, 06:07 PM	I agree with Dheran about using SoH for frisking and other similar search checks and what he said about SoH vs. Hide. Picking pockets would be be subject to applied circumstances. I would think that a NPC with high spot or if you're in a relatively open space would raise the difficulty. Things like the NPC being intoxicated or being in a crowded space would make it easier. No, Spot is just to see if they notice. DC 20 is required to take it. I mean, you can add rules, but that isn't what it says.
Vharuck 09-11-07, 06:13 PM	Hello everybody, I've recently been making a rogue for an upcoming campaign, but I've been somewhat baffled by the rules for Sleight of Hand (SoH). I've read the entry several times, but there seem some things that don't make sense or need clarifying. 1) The entry makes it sound like when someones frisking you for a concealed weapon, their search check is opposed by your sleight of hand check. I can see why this would make sense if you hid it while in their presence, because better SoH would allow you to hide it better without their noticing; but what about if you hid the dagger in advance? In this case it makes no sense for SoH to be the dominant skill. 2) Related to 1) above, there's a search skill for finding objects, but what skill governs hiding objects? I'm sure there must be a skill I've forgotten about. (obviously, it's not the deceptively named hide, because that governs hiding yourself.) I'll answer both of these together. What I notice is that, in the first question and thought, you justify removing SoH as the skill for hiding objects on one's body, but then in the second part you seem to be at a loss as to what skill would be used when hiding something on one's body. This leaves us with either one of two options: create a new skill more along the lines of doing this, or choose an existing skill that could be stretched a little to use when doing this. Creating a new skill is not suggested, especially for something as specific as this, and choosing a preexisting skill is, IMO, just what the developers did. SoH isn't just picking pockets. At heart, it represents those neat parlor tricks magicians do. When learning to do these tricks, one learns how to keep objects on one's body in such a way that the audience can't see them. That seems pretty straightforward to me. I'd say SoH is the perfect skill. And as for using secret pockets and everything, that's what circumstance modifiers are for. However, a person skilled in SoH knows how to best stuff small objects in his cloak so as to be unnoticable even when he moves. 3) Picking pockets. A DC 20 check allows you to pick someones pocket, right? If so, are there any more specific rules than this, or is adjudicating it up to the DM? Other than the item's owner making an opposed Spot check to notice your thievery, nothing official. This is definitely a situation that could benefit from a DM's adjustments when appropriate. 4) How useful is SoH in general? My rogue is a human and has an intelligence of 16, so he has skill points up the wahoo, but my DM tends to use a lot of Jump/Climb/Swim/etc., so a fair portion of my points are devoted to "non-rogue" skills. For example, are maxed Spot and Listen more important than partial ranks in spot and listen and maxed sleight of hand? I wouldn't max SoH, but it is one of those skills that, when the situation arrives, becomes very valuable. Also, note that it's a trained-only skill, so no ranks means you can't do anything with a check DC over 10.
imakuni67 09-11-07, 07:00 PM	You can hide with a dagger with a +4 bonus and then whip it out in sneak attack with it.
ThorGuy 09-11-07, 07:29 PM	Dheren, I really like your ideas for using it in combat. I think I'll try using them with my character. Vharuk, you have a good point about how hiding objects would be mapped to SoH; incidentally, your explanation would make it impossible to take twenty on such a check. Thanks for all your replies; I think you've answered all my questions.
Tedronai 09-12-07, 12:01 AM	Taking 20 implies that you try many times and fail before you eventually achieve the best possible result available at your level of skill (as if you had simply rolled a 20). For something like hiding an object on your body, this would not make sense, since, unless you have a way to determine how well you did (an observer with sufficient ranks in Spot that they will almost always see what you're doing, for instance), you won't be able to determine whether or not you could improve on your attempt.