Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PerennialRook 01-19-08, 08:00 PM	Taking from the Complete Divine book: As a sorcerer, if I take four ranks in Knowledge (religion) I qualify for the feat Arcane Disciple, which adds the domain spells from a god's domain into my class list of arcane spells. Choosing the healing domain (from Pelor), I then I turn around and take the Spontaneous Healer feat. Now I can spontaneously heal using cure spells from my class list? I don't even have to take them as known spells!
dman11235 01-20-08, 12:11 AM	Wrong. You have cure spells "on your list" for your wisdom modifier times per day. That is assuming that Arcane Disciple actually gives you a domain? Or is it that you get to prepare one domain spell of each level per day? And I don't think it actually works because the domain spells don't become on your list, and spontaneous healer says "any cure spell on your list". For domain spontaneity (same book, I believe): wrong as well At least, wrong if you aren't epic. The epic feat for spontaneous domain casting will let you do that, but the non-epic requires the expenditure of turn attempts. EDIT: grrr. Stupid brain not working. If it doesn't make sense, just ignore it.
DastardlyDan 01-20-08, 12:20 AM	Arcane Disciple adds cleric spells from the domain you choose to your class list of arcane spells. Unfortunately, you're in trouble when you try to use Domain Spontaniety. Arcane Disciple does not actually give you the domain, it just allows you to add the domain's spells to your class list. You have to actually be able to prepare a spell as a domain spell to use the feat. Also, the feat requires that you spend a use of your Turn Undead ability to activate it. So unless you have levels that grant you the Turn Undead ability, you can't even take the feat. So yes, as a sorceror, you can take Arcane Disciple and be able to cast one healing spell from each spell level, but only one per spell level per day. So in one day, you could only cast each Cure spell once. Nice to have the healing ability, though.
dman11235 01-20-08, 12:28 AM	Okay, I guess it would help if I knew where Arcane Disciple is from. I haven't looked at it myself, but I've heard about it, and when one of my players used it (we have trust) he told me you got to prepare each spell once per day, but could not add it to spells known.
DastardlyDan 01-20-08, 12:30 AM	Both of the feats he is trying to use are from the Complete Divine splatbook.
PerennialRook 01-20-08, 12:35 AM	Arcane Disciple adds spells to your "class list of arcane spells" from the domain of your deity. Pelor has the healing domain which is filled with all the cure spells. Spontaneous Healing (not Domain Spontaneity) allows you to cast cure spells from your class spell list a number of times per day equal to your wisdom modifier.
DastardlyDan 01-20-08, 12:42 AM	Ah, you're right. My bad...reading the books more than I'm reading the post. Yes, your feat combo would work.
dman11235 01-20-08, 12:39 PM	Hmm, I thought it was in a book I didn't have access to. Well, I just looked at it, and yup, it works.
Merestil Haye 01-20-08, 02:59 PM	Okay, I guess it would help if I knew where Arcane Disciple is from. I haven't looked at it myself, but I've heard about it, and when one of my players used it (we have trust) he told me you got to prepare each spell once per day, but could not add it to spells known.Arcane Disciple adds spells to the character's class spell list. What it does not do is add those spells to the character's known spells. if the character wants to be able to cast the spell, he has to learn the spell. For a sorcerer, that means choosing the spell as one he learns by going up levels.
PerennialRook 01-20-08, 03:53 PM	Arcane Disciple adds spells to the character's class spell list. What it does not do is add those spells to the character's known spells. if the character wants to be able to cast the spell, he has to learn the spell. For a sorcerer, that means choosing the spell as one he learns by going up levels.That is the point of the Spontaneous Healer feat. It lets you cast cure spells from your class list, negating the need to add it to your known spells.
Merestil Haye 01-20-08, 04:27 PM	That is the point of the Spontaneous Healer feat. It lets you cast cure spells from your class list, negating the need to add it to your known spells.And the character I was discussing has not been reported to possess the Spontaneous Healer feat - just a misunderstanding of the Arcane Disciple feat. I wouldn't allow this to work. Clerics don't spontaneously cast spells on their class spell list. They spontaneously cast spells that they know. Therefore the feat lets you spontaneously cast spells that you know. Don't know it? Can't cast it.
TimelordSimone 01-20-08, 05:02 PM	Hmm, I looked it up, and I think you would need to learn at least one Cure Something Wounds spell. Because, as a prerequisite for the feat, you have to be 'able to cast any cure wounds spell' And, for a sorcerer to be able to cast a spell, it would need to be on their list of spells known. You'd only need to learn one though.
PerennialRook 01-20-08, 05:07 PM	And the character I was discussing has not been reported to possess the Spontaneous Healer feat - just a misunderstanding of the Arcane Disciple feat. I wouldn't allow this to work. Clerics don't spontaneously cast spells on their class spell list. They spontaneously cast spells that they know. Therefore the feat lets you spontaneously cast spells that you know. Don't know it? Can't cast it. That's just it though. Both feats specifically mention the spells being in the characters class list of spells. Spontaneous Healer specifically mentions casting the spells from your class list, not your known spells.
ratslinky 01-20-08, 05:10 PM	Actually since a cleric spells known and spells on class list are the same it's a moot point.
Cartigan 01-20-08, 05:15 PM	Then I have a question on the same feat but a slight tangent. Would Spontaneous Healer then let an Archivist spontaneously cast Cure X Wound spells of the same level of spell that it sacrifices, even if that Cure spell wasn't one of the ones it chooses from the Cleric spell list upon leveling up? (Archivists automatically get Cure Minor Wounds by virtue of learning all Cleric cantrips at first level.)
Airos 01-20-08, 05:47 PM	It... It's so beautiful... I just want to thank you for bringing this to my attention. My hat is off to you :tiphat:
Merestil Haye 01-21-08, 06:39 AM	That's just it though. Both feats specifically mention the spells being in the characters class list of spells. Spontaneous Healer specifically mentions casting the spells from your class list, not your known spells.I'm sorry, but I obviously didn't get my point across clearly enough. The general rule for casting spells is that you can only cast spells that you know. Clerics obey this rule, because they know all spells on their class spell list, so they are casting known spells, not spells on their class list. Spontaneous Healer allows you to spontaneously cast spells "like a cleric does." In other words, it ties the operation of the feat to the functioning of the Cleric class feature. Therefore the character with Spontaneous Healing can only cast spells that they know. Don't know it? Can't cast it. That rule is not set aside by Spontaneous Healer. (ETA : I'd agree with you if the parenthetical statement that the character casts his spells as a cleric does were not present. Personally I think this is a case of the writer not thinking his idea all the way through and failing to consider a basic rule. It's not the first time that a writer's idea has foundered against the rock of basic rules.)
Cartigan 01-21-08, 10:08 AM	Then this feat is only good for casters who prepare their spells? (ie, not Sorcerers)
Belkar 01-21-08, 10:59 AM	Yep. A sorceror with Arcane Disciple (Healing domain) has the healing domain spells added to his class list - but must still "learn" them to cast them. So, Spontaneous Healer is mostly useless to Spontaneous Casters. There is one exception - the Spirit Shaman (an odd class from Complete Divine), that knows the entire druid spell list - but prepares a specific number of the spells from that list each day, then can cast them "willy nilly" like a sorceror - spontaneously. But Spontaneous Healer was a feat designed to let a Druid serve as a first-aid kit in a pinch, or let an evil cleric get more functionality. (Conversly, Spontaneous Inflict, and Spontaneous Summon give good clerics a great deal more functionality as well).
PerennialRook 01-21-08, 12:06 PM	I'm sorry, but I obviously didn't get my point across clearly enough. The general rule for casting spells is that you can only cast spells that you know. Clerics obey this rule, because they know all spells on their class spell list, so they are casting known spells, not spells on their class list. Spontaneous Healer allows you to spontaneously cast spells "like a cleric does." In other words, it ties the operation of the feat to the functioning of the Cleric class feature. Therefore the character with Spontaneous Healing can only cast spells that they know. Don't know it? Can't cast it. That rule is not set aside by Spontaneous Healer. (ETA : I'd agree with you if the parenthetical statement that the character casts his spells as a cleric does were not present. Personally I think this is a case of the writer not thinking his idea all the way through and failing to consider a basic rule. It's not the first time that a writer's idea has foundered against the rock of basic rules.) The parenthetical reads: "from your class spell list" This statement is to clarify what they mean when they say "just as a cleric can." So the question is, how does a cleric cast spells? To quote from the SRD: "A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list." Nowhere does it say anything about spells known. I'd be interested to know where the basic rule is that says you can only cast spells that you "know" that would somehow not allow you to cast spells from your class list if a feat specifically allows you to cast from your class list. There are drawbacks to this combination. As someone pointed out, you can only cast one cure spell of each level. Also, you can only cast a number of cleric spells equal to your wisdom modifier. Further, you must be the exact alignment of the deity with the healing domain (which in core would restrict you to Pelor, NG). A DM might also specify that you must worship the deity as well, which would further restrict your character. With these limitations I would say that this combination is still balanced, and only an interesting use of the rules and not an abuse of them.
Malicea 01-21-08, 01:01 PM	This statement is to clarify what they mean when they say "just as a cleric can." So the question is, how does a cleric cast spells? To quote from the SRD: "A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list." The actual quote is: "use your spellcasting ability to spontaneously cast cure spells just as a cleric can" From the SRD: Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name). Strictly speaking, a sorcerer or other spontaneous caster does not have any prepared spells to lose. Arcane Preparation might still make this doable, but that's another feat and much less flexibility.
PerennialRook 01-21-08, 01:29 PM	The actual quote is: "use your spellcasting ability to spontaneously cast cure spells just as a cleric can" From the SRD: Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name). Strictly speaking, a sorcerer or other spontaneous caster does not have any prepared spells to lose. Arcane Preparation might still make this doable, but that's another feat and much less flexibility.I had to dig for this one. Arcane Disciple addresses the "prepare or cast" issue in the last paragraph of the benefit section where it states that you can just "cast, if you cast spells without preparation." It would cripple a sorcerer to have to take Arcane Preparation AND prepare and spell which they intend to spontaneously change into a cure spell. You're already spending two feats to be able to cast one cure spell of each level up to your Wisdom modifier each day. If a sorcerer had a Wisdom of 14, they could only cast two cure spells, and each would have to be a different level of spell. How many sorcerers do you know with high Wisdom scores? Usually Wisdom comes after things like Charisma, Constitution, Dexterity, and Intelligence. These are a lot of sacrifices to make to be able to cast a handful of cure spells in any given day.
Malicea 01-21-08, 07:59 PM	I had to dig for this one. Arcane Disciple addresses the "prepare or cast" issue in the last paragraph of the benefit section where it states that you can just "cast, if you cast spells without preparation." It would cripple a sorcerer to have to take Arcane Preparation AND prepare and spell which they intend to spontaneously change into a cure spell. You're already spending two feats to be able to cast one cure spell of each level up to your Wisdom modifier each day. If a sorcerer had a Wisdom of 14, they could only cast two cure spells, and each would have to be a different level of spell. How many sorcerers do you know with high Wisdom scores? Usually Wisdom comes after things like Charisma, Constitution, Dexterity, and Intelligence. These are a lot of sacrifices to make to be able to cast a handful of cure spells in any given day. This has nothing to do with Arcane Disciple. Arcane Disciple clearly only gives you the ability to cast the spells if you learn them. This is an attempt to use the casting granted by Spontaneous Healer to circumvent the necessity of spending 'spells known'. Strictly speaking, it cannot be done, and the viability of the combo for a sorcerer is irrelevant to RAW. Arcane Disciple works better for other spontaneous casters like Beguilers, Warmages and Dread Necromancers, because they automatically learn every spell on their spell lists. The combo of the two feats appears to work well for wizards, since they learn spells cheaply, and have prepared slots to lose, and furthermore have less MAD doing so. Sorcerers however, appear to be out of luck. Similarly, I don't think Favored Souls who (unwisely) do not pick up more than one Cure spell would be able to use Spontaneous Healer.
PerennialRook 01-21-08, 08:30 PM	This has nothing to do with Arcane Disciple. Arcane Disciple clearly only gives you the ability to cast the spells if you learn them. This is an attempt to use the casting granted by Spontaneous Healer to circumvent the necessity of spending 'spells known'. Strictly speaking, it cannot be done, and the viability of the combo for a sorcerer is irrelevant to RAW.Arcane Disciple clearly puts domain spells on your arcane class spell list. Spontaneous Healer clearly allows you to cast from your spell list.
Malicea 01-21-08, 08:45 PM	Arcane Disciple clearly puts domain spells on your arcane class spell list. Spontaneous Healer clearly allows you to cast from your spell list. Spontaneous Healer clearly allows you to lose a prepared spell to cast from your spell list. Please read.