Spell crits and Duskblades [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spell crits and Duskblades [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xan_Kriegor
11-04-07, 05:47 PM Let us assume a Duskblade has a rapier (crit 18-20) and uses Arcane Channeling (spells have crit 20). What happens if he gets an 18 or 19 and confirms? Does the spell damage double as though it got a crit, or would only the rapier get a crit? Or would the Duskblade have to get a 20 and confirm twice, once for the rapier and once for the spell? And what happens if he uses a warhammer (crit 20), has Improved critical (touch spell) and gets a 19 on his attack roll? Thank you all in advance!
deathbane
11-04-07, 07:56 PM You would go by the delivery device, in this case the weapon, since that is what is hitting the critical area, that is where the spell is taking effect.
risner
11-04-07, 11:34 PM Let us assume a Duskblade has a rapier (crit 18-20) and uses Arcane Channeling (spells have crit 20). What happens if he gets an 18 or 19 and confirms? Does the spell damage double as though it got a crit, or would only the rapier get a crit? Or would the Duskblade have to get a 20 and confirm twice, once for the rapier and once for the spell? And what happens if he uses a warhammer (crit 20), has Improved critical (touch spell) and gets a 19 on his attack roll? Thank you all in advance!

He gets a 19, the weapon damage is crit but the spell damage isn't.
If he gets a 20, then the confirm is for both the weapon and the spell.
Tedronai
11-04-07, 11:42 PM When a spell is being delivered by a weapon attack (be it via Arcane Channelling or otherwise), if that spell deals damage, the damage is treated similarly to bonus dice on the attack, in that it does not multiply, regardless of roll.

The weapon attack scored the critical hit. The weapon's damage is multiplied. The spell had no attack roll, so the spell's damage does not multiply.
jaelis
11-04-07, 11:47 PM When a spell is being delivered by a weapon attack (be it via Arcane Channelling or otherwise), if that spell deals damage, the damage is treated similarly to bonus dice on the attack, in that it does not multiply, regardless of roll.

The weapon attack scored the critical hit. The weapon's damage is multiplied. The spell had no attack roll, so the spell's damage does not multiply.

This is correct. The same thing applies when you deliver a touch spell with an unarmed strike.
Tordak
11-05-07, 08:38 AM I don't know if the above is an actual ruling/faq or something. But I would tend to agree more with deathbane about the delivery device. If the spell does not usually require attack roll (example : spellsword delivering fireball through melee attack), then there's no crit whether you crit with the weapon or not. If you usually roll for crit with the spell, then I'd say if you crit with the weapon, you crit with the spell too; if you hit a vital spot with the weapon and all the spell's energy is discharge right in that spot, it must hurt pretty bad. )Another example would be the warlock with the hideous blow invocation.)

Beside, what kind of morron would trade range touch spell attack (usually easier, and from a safe distance) into a melee attack (up close, usually harder)? There's got to be some trade off (and more than only being 'subtle' about the spell effect).

This being said, it also makes perfect sense to say crit through spells don't work the same way crit through weapons do. That is when you crit with magic it doesn't mean you hit a weak physical spot. And you also don't roll for the spell, just for the weapon. I really think this is a DM call. You could require seperate confirmation rolls, or use Rinser's line on using both threat range. I guess this doesn't help much and was a waste of thread space.
kuonji
11-05-07, 09:17 AM For what it's worth: (Dated 11/29/2006, Sage Advice archive)

Q: Dear Sage,
If a duskblade scores a critical hit when channeling a spell through a melee attack, is the spell’s damage multiplied just like the weapon’s?
--Dan

A: The rules aren’t as clear as they could be, but the Sage is inclined to say no. Here’s the key sentence, from the PHB II, page 20: “If the attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.”

If you score a critical hit, the attack deals the normal (critical) damage. Then the spell resolves normally, but it’s just a rider effect applied due to the successful attack roll—you’re not actually using the spell in the normal manner, so it can’t score a critical hit.
Tordak
11-05-07, 09:34 AM For what it's worth: (Dated 11/29/2006, Sage Advice archive)

Q: Dear Sage,
If a duskblade scores a critical hit when channeling a spell through a melee attack, is the spell’s damage multiplied just like the weapon’s?
--Dan

A: The rules aren’t as clear as they could be, but the Sage is inclined to say no. Here’s the key sentence, from the PHB II, page 20: “If the attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.”

If you score a critical hit, the attack deals the normal (critical) damage. Then the spell resolves normally, but it’s just a rider effect applied due to the successful attack roll—you’re not actually using the spell in the normal manner, so it can’t score a critical hit.

Alright, not a faq yet but sound fair to me. Altough I still think this class feature seems kind of useless, unless the touch attack is still succesful if you hit the touch AC but fail to beat the AC (it's probably the case, I'm just not sure cause I didn't read the whole thing).
risner
11-05-07, 09:47 AM Alright, not a faq yet but sound fair to me. Altough I still think this class feature seems kind of useless, unless the touch attack is still succesful if you hit the touch AC but fail to beat the AC (it's probably the case, I'm just not sure cause I didn't read the whole thing).

If your talking about the Duskblade channel, then no if you miss the AC (but hit the touch ac) you still miss and the spell doesn't trigger.

I wasn't aware of the Sage Advise, but that advise makes even more sense than my interpretation above.
goawayugh
11-05-07, 01:56 PM Alright, not a faq yet but sound fair to me. Altough I still think this class feature seems kind of useless, unless the touch attack is still succesful if you hit the touch AC but fail to beat the AC (it's probably the case, I'm just not sure cause I didn't read the whole thing).If a duskblade scores a critical hit when channeling a
spell through a melee attack, is the spell’s damage
multiplied just like the weapon’s?
The rules aren’t as clear as they could be, but the Sage is
inclined to say no. Here’s the key sentence, from the PHB II,
page 20: “If the attack is successful, the attack deals damage
normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.”
If you score a critical hit, the attack deals the normal
(critical) damage. Then the spell resolves normally, but it’s just
a rider effect applied due to the successful attack roll—you’re
not actually using the spell in the normal manner, so it can’t
score a critical hit.^WotC Official FAQ
Tordak
11-05-07, 02:17 PM Ok, I take the 'not a faq yet' back. But the rest still holds (this ability stinks :P... well most of the time anyway)
Killydd
11-06-07, 12:30 AM The reason for doing it is so that you get the effects of your weapon hitting and the spell hitting. It only takes a standard action to hit with both effects(rather than for each separately) and later on you get to use that spell throughout the full-attack action, so each of your attacks in the round might deal the extra 5d6 electrical damage of shocking grasp, for example.
Tordak
11-06-07, 07:38 AM Yeah I forgot about the part where your spell get applied to each and every one of your attack from then on. I guess it isn't such a bad ability. I now remember thinking how good it could be with vampiric touch.
Xan_Kriegor
11-06-07, 05:47 PM So basically, the general consensus is that while using Arcane Channeling, I cannot have the spell crit. Dang... I'll ask my DM anyways.

Thank you all though, for your fast answers, especially Tordak.
Tordak
11-06-07, 06:05 PM BURN...T!!! :P
risner
11-06-07, 11:38 PM So basically, the general consensus is that while using Arcane Channeling, I cannot have the spell crit. Dang... I'll ask my DM anyways.

Thank you all though, for your fast answers, especially Tordak.

Just be sure to show him this thread.
goawayugh
11-07-07, 12:04 AM So basically, the general consensus is that while using Arcane Channeling, I cannot have the spell crit. Dang... I'll ask my DM anyways.

Thank you all though, for your fast answers, especially Tordak.

It's not just a "general consensus". It is in the FAQ, there is an official answer from WotC. Basically you are saying that you will ask your DM if you can cheat. If you do decide to ask him if you can cheat anyway, make sure to show him this thread before he makes a decision.
Xan_Kriegor
11-07-07, 09:01 PM It's not just a "general consensus". It is in the FAQ, there is an official answer from WotC. Basically you are saying that you will ask your DM if you can cheat. If you do decide to ask him if you can cheat anyway, make sure to show him this thread before he makes a decision.
:blush: Uhh... :tantrum::pbbbtt: I can't even think of how to respond to that. Good job at totally making me look and feel bad about myself.
RysanMarquise
11-07-07, 09:09 PM Yes, because asking a DM for a houserule is the same as cheating....
Really.

No need to harass people pointlessly, the wording is vague and intent is not clear. These are the kind of destinctions that DMs are supposed to be able to make freely.

The FAQ exists to clear up issues of technicalities, but in this case the technicallity is not a large ballance issue.

This said, it admittedly does not trigger by current wording, even though it is a perfectly reasonable house-rule for it to do so.
goawayugh
11-08-07, 07:17 AM :blush: Uhh... :tantrum::pbbbtt: I can't even think of how to respond to that. Good job at totally making me look and feel bad about myself.Sorry about that. My post probably sounded harsh because I despise cheating, and that is how I read your previous post. To me, it sounded like you were just going to ignore everything everyone said here and see how your DM sees it. That's the way I read it, but if you were going to explain it all to him, and ask for a houserule, then...sorry, I misinterpreted what you said.

If you were just going to ask him without showing/telling him anything in this thread and hope he said ok, then I meant every word I said before.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just can't stand cheaters (not that I'm saying you are one).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xan_Kriegor 11-04-07, 05:47 PM	Let us assume a Duskblade has a rapier (crit 18-20) and uses Arcane Channeling (spells have crit 20). What happens if he gets an 18 or 19 and confirms? Does the spell damage double as though it got a crit, or would only the rapier get a crit? Or would the Duskblade have to get a 20 and confirm twice, once for the rapier and once for the spell? And what happens if he uses a warhammer (crit 20), has Improved critical (touch spell) and gets a 19 on his attack roll? Thank you all in advance!
deathbane 11-04-07, 07:56 PM	You would go by the delivery device, in this case the weapon, since that is what is hitting the critical area, that is where the spell is taking effect.
risner 11-04-07, 11:34 PM	Let us assume a Duskblade has a rapier (crit 18-20) and uses Arcane Channeling (spells have crit 20). What happens if he gets an 18 or 19 and confirms? Does the spell damage double as though it got a crit, or would only the rapier get a crit? Or would the Duskblade have to get a 20 and confirm twice, once for the rapier and once for the spell? And what happens if he uses a warhammer (crit 20), has Improved critical (touch spell) and gets a 19 on his attack roll? Thank you all in advance! He gets a 19, the weapon damage is crit but the spell damage isn't. If he gets a 20, then the confirm is for both the weapon and the spell.
Tedronai 11-04-07, 11:42 PM	When a spell is being delivered by a weapon attack (be it via Arcane Channelling or otherwise), if that spell deals damage, the damage is treated similarly to bonus dice on the attack, in that it does not multiply, regardless of roll. The weapon attack scored the critical hit. The weapon's damage is multiplied. The spell had no attack roll, so the spell's damage does not multiply.
jaelis 11-04-07, 11:47 PM	When a spell is being delivered by a weapon attack (be it via Arcane Channelling or otherwise), if that spell deals damage, the damage is treated similarly to bonus dice on the attack, in that it does not multiply, regardless of roll. The weapon attack scored the critical hit. The weapon's damage is multiplied. The spell had no attack roll, so the spell's damage does not multiply. This is correct. The same thing applies when you deliver a touch spell with an unarmed strike.
Tordak 11-05-07, 08:38 AM	I don't know if the above is an actual ruling/faq or something. But I would tend to agree more with deathbane about the delivery device. If the spell does not usually require attack roll (example : spellsword delivering fireball through melee attack), then there's no crit whether you crit with the weapon or not. If you usually roll for crit with the spell, then I'd say if you crit with the weapon, you crit with the spell too; if you hit a vital spot with the weapon and all the spell's energy is discharge right in that spot, it must hurt pretty bad. )Another example would be the warlock with the hideous blow invocation.) Beside, what kind of morron would trade range touch spell attack (usually easier, and from a safe distance) into a melee attack (up close, usually harder)? There's got to be some trade off (and more than only being 'subtle' about the spell effect). This being said, it also makes perfect sense to say crit through spells don't work the same way crit through weapons do. That is when you crit with magic it doesn't mean you hit a weak physical spot. And you also don't roll for the spell, just for the weapon. I really think this is a DM call. You could require seperate confirmation rolls, or use Rinser's line on using both threat range. I guess this doesn't help much and was a waste of thread space.
kuonji 11-05-07, 09:17 AM	For what it's worth: (Dated 11/29/2006, Sage Advice archive) Q: Dear Sage, If a duskblade scores a critical hit when channeling a spell through a melee attack, is the spell’s damage multiplied just like the weapon’s? --Dan A: The rules aren’t as clear as they could be, but the Sage is inclined to say no. Here’s the key sentence, from the PHB II, page 20: “If the attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.” If you score a critical hit, the attack deals the normal (critical) damage. Then the spell resolves normally, but it’s just a rider effect applied due to the successful attack roll—you’re not actually using the spell in the normal manner, so it can’t score a critical hit.
Tordak 11-05-07, 09:34 AM	For what it's worth: (Dated 11/29/2006, Sage Advice archive) Q: Dear Sage, If a duskblade scores a critical hit when channeling a spell through a melee attack, is the spell’s damage multiplied just like the weapon’s? --Dan A: The rules aren’t as clear as they could be, but the Sage is inclined to say no. Here’s the key sentence, from the PHB II, page 20: “If the attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.” If you score a critical hit, the attack deals the normal (critical) damage. Then the spell resolves normally, but it’s just a rider effect applied due to the successful attack roll—you’re not actually using the spell in the normal manner, so it can’t score a critical hit. Alright, not a faq yet but sound fair to me. Altough I still think this class feature seems kind of useless, unless the touch attack is still succesful if you hit the touch AC but fail to beat the AC (it's probably the case, I'm just not sure cause I didn't read the whole thing).
risner 11-05-07, 09:47 AM	Alright, not a faq yet but sound fair to me. Altough I still think this class feature seems kind of useless, unless the touch attack is still succesful if you hit the touch AC but fail to beat the AC (it's probably the case, I'm just not sure cause I didn't read the whole thing). If your talking about the Duskblade channel, then no if you miss the AC (but hit the touch ac) you still miss and the spell doesn't trigger. I wasn't aware of the Sage Advise, but that advise makes even more sense than my interpretation above.
goawayugh 11-05-07, 01:56 PM	Alright, not a faq yet but sound fair to me. Altough I still think this class feature seems kind of useless, unless the touch attack is still succesful if you hit the touch AC but fail to beat the AC (it's probably the case, I'm just not sure cause I didn't read the whole thing).If a duskblade scores a critical hit when channeling a spell through a melee attack, is the spell’s damage multiplied just like the weapon’s? The rules aren’t as clear as they could be, but the Sage is inclined to say no. Here’s the key sentence, from the PHB II, page 20: “If the attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.” If you score a critical hit, the attack deals the normal (critical) damage. Then the spell resolves normally, but it’s just a rider effect applied due to the successful attack roll—you’re not actually using the spell in the normal manner, so it can’t score a critical hit.^WotC Official FAQ
Tordak 11-05-07, 02:17 PM	Ok, I take the 'not a faq yet' back. But the rest still holds (this ability stinks :P... well most of the time anyway)
Killydd 11-06-07, 12:30 AM	The reason for doing it is so that you get the effects of your weapon hitting and the spell hitting. It only takes a standard action to hit with both effects(rather than for each separately) and later on you get to use that spell throughout the full-attack action, so each of your attacks in the round might deal the extra 5d6 electrical damage of shocking grasp, for example.
Tordak 11-06-07, 07:38 AM	Yeah I forgot about the part where your spell get applied to each and every one of your attack from then on. I guess it isn't such a bad ability. I now remember thinking how good it could be with vampiric touch.
Xan_Kriegor 11-06-07, 05:47 PM	So basically, the general consensus is that while using Arcane Channeling, I cannot have the spell crit. Dang... I'll ask my DM anyways. Thank you all though, for your fast answers, especially Tordak.
Tordak 11-06-07, 06:05 PM	BURN...T!!! :P
risner 11-06-07, 11:38 PM	So basically, the general consensus is that while using Arcane Channeling, I cannot have the spell crit. Dang... I'll ask my DM anyways. Thank you all though, for your fast answers, especially Tordak. Just be sure to show him this thread.
goawayugh 11-07-07, 12:04 AM	So basically, the general consensus is that while using Arcane Channeling, I cannot have the spell crit. Dang... I'll ask my DM anyways. Thank you all though, for your fast answers, especially Tordak. It's not just a "general consensus". It is in the FAQ, there is an official answer from WotC. Basically you are saying that you will ask your DM if you can cheat. If you do decide to ask him if you can cheat anyway, make sure to show him this thread before he makes a decision.
Xan_Kriegor 11-07-07, 09:01 PM	It's not just a "general consensus". It is in the FAQ, there is an official answer from WotC. Basically you are saying that you will ask your DM if you can cheat. If you do decide to ask him if you can cheat anyway, make sure to show him this thread before he makes a decision. :blush: Uhh... :tantrum::pbbbtt: I can't even think of how to respond to that. Good job at totally making me look and feel bad about myself.
RysanMarquise 11-07-07, 09:09 PM	Yes, because asking a DM for a houserule is the same as cheating.... Really. No need to harass people pointlessly, the wording is vague and intent is not clear. These are the kind of destinctions that DMs are supposed to be able to make freely. The FAQ exists to clear up issues of technicalities, but in this case the technicallity is not a large ballance issue. This said, it admittedly does not trigger by current wording, even though it is a perfectly reasonable house-rule for it to do so.
goawayugh 11-08-07, 07:17 AM	:blush: Uhh... :tantrum::pbbbtt: I can't even think of how to respond to that. Good job at totally making me look and feel bad about myself.Sorry about that. My post probably sounded harsh because I despise cheating, and that is how I read your previous post. To me, it sounded like you were just going to ignore everything everyone said here and see how your DM sees it. That's the way I read it, but if you were going to explain it all to him, and ask for a houserule, then...sorry, I misinterpreted what you said. If you were just going to ask him without showing/telling him anything in this thread and hope he said ok, then I meant every word I said before. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just can't stand cheaters (not that I'm saying you are one).