Spell Focus (conjuration)... worthless??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spell Focus (conjuration)... worthless??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
elfinn3
03-14-07, 04:19 PM I am running a game with a druid who wants to use "Augment Summoning" to beef up her Summon Nature's Ally. According to the rules, she has to take "Spell Focus (conjuration)" first, but it appears that this feat would really do her no good, since all a druid's conjurations either offer no saving throw or offer saves on things like cure, where you don't ever use it. She feels like she is taking two feats just to use the one, and justifiably so.

I am thinking of making a house rule to offset the cost and make the "Spell Focus" worth it. Maybe it will act like "Extend Spell" or perhaps she could summon as a standard action instead of a full round action.

Any suggestions on how to make this worth it without making it unbalanced?
:confused:
tarkin
03-14-07, 04:33 PM Stop.
Think.

Do you think the game designers are morons? That they did not realize how crappy a feat Spell Focus (Conjuration) is?

No? You will admit they have brains? OK, great for you.

Now, can you think of any reason why you would intentionally give a feat as a pre-req that was a sucky feat?

Like say, if you had a really cool, extra powerfull feat, and wanted to balance it.

Like say Augment Summoning that grants a +4 to Con and Strength, effectively making the creatures about 2 levels higher, with not even a metamagic cost.

Yes, she IS taking two feats to get one. That is what the game designer thought she HAD to do to be fair to get that one great feat.

Pre-Req feats are sometimes intentionally sucky. This is a prime example. Another is Toughness/Dwarven Defender.

If she does not want the incredibally powerfull Augmented Summoning, at the cost the game designer wanted her to pay, then she should take something else.

Alternatively, if I was feeling generous, I would rule that she can have Augmented Summoning with no pre-req cost - but it it now a metamagic feat, costing +1 level.

P.S. if you think Spell Focus (Conjuration) is bad, take a look at Greater Spell Focus (Abjurataion), which is used a a pre-req for the Iniate of the Seven Veils.
Dastir
03-14-07, 04:35 PM Very well spoken sir... :)

We had the exact same debate in my group... as if Druids weren't powerful, enough already...
yonman
03-14-07, 04:51 PM Just so you're aware, but there are a lot of Conjuration Arcane spells that need a saving throw in the accessories, including the Spell Compendium.
Hariman
03-15-07, 10:57 PM Just so you're aware, but there are a lot of Conjuration Arcane spells that need a saving throw in the accessories, including the Spell Compendium.

The 4th Level Orbs, Stinking Cloud, Blast of Fire, Arc of Lightning and Vitriolic Sphere come to mind.

But, yeah, it's a not so good feat to offset a much better feat. Just like all of the great spellcasting prestige classes that require "Skill Focus: Junk" or Combat Casting.
FrostHammer
03-15-07, 11:24 PM Combat casting isn't *total* junk, to be honest, but I do wish it granted more than just +4.
Nephlite
03-15-07, 11:56 PM I am running a game with a druid who wants to use "Augment Summoning" to beef up her Summon Nature's Ally. According to the rules, she has to take "Spell Focus (conjuration)" first, but it appears that this feat would really do her no good, since all a druid's conjurations either offer no saving throw or offer saves on things like cure, where you don't ever use it. She feels like she is taking two feats just to use the one, and justifiably so.

I am thinking of making a house rule to offset the cost and make the "Spell Focus" worth it. Maybe it will act like "Extend Spell" or perhaps she could summon as a standard action instead of a full round action.

Any suggestions on how to make this worth it without making it unbalanced?
:confused:

You feel upset at this.
Look at the Cleric: he only has the cure spells working (they have a save versus undead). And hey you can do that too.
New Slogan:
SF Conj: at least you can affect undead better!
TygerTyger
03-16-07, 10:30 AM Yes, admitedly, for a druid its not that great a feat, but like has been said above, its the price he pays for having all of his summoned critters automatically have Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance cast upon them. And wait... because its not actually those spells, the summoned critters can still benefit from actual castings of those spells... in effect getting +8 to STR and +8 to CON.... not too shabby now hmm?

For Arcane casters, the feat is even better, as things like Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, the Orb line of spells, and Web are all DC dependent.

Hmmmm... I was thinking of not taking the feat, until I wrote this. Now my wizard is going to have it as well. :)
kjenks
03-16-07, 12:24 PM In Living Greyhawk, my wizard 7 has Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Sculpt Spell. These are just awesome for Grease, Glitterdust and Evard's Black Tentacles.

I'm looking forward to picking up Orb of Fire next level. The damage is good, and the icing on the cake is the Fort save DC 21 or be dazed for 1 round.

But my Living Greyhawk druid 10 rejected the idea of Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning in part because so few druid spells from the Conjuration school allow saving throws and in part because he hasn't maximized his wisdom, so his save DCs aren't way up there anyway. (Besides, he has a direct damage combat style that seems to work better for him than the "wall of fur" style.)
Tonus
03-16-07, 07:39 PM As has been pointed out, often a so-so feat is a pre-req for something really great. Even so, Spell Focus - conjuration isn't entirely worthless for a druid. Cure spells can be used against undead - and since you don't have turning and your summoned animals may be dubious about attacking undead, the extra +1 DC on the cure spells can be useful. Plus, it helps the DC on Fire Seeds. Seems to me to be fine as is.
navar100
03-16-07, 11:13 PM You feel upset at this.
Look at the Cleric: he only has the cure spells working (they have a save versus undead). And hey you can do that too.
New Slogan:
SF Conj: at least you can affect undead better!

With Complete Divine there's Divine Vengeance at level 2 and Cometfall at level 6.
hreslingozer
03-16-07, 11:24 PM Fireseeds as well.
celloshane
03-17-07, 01:52 AM Spell Compendium adds a multitude of Conjuration spells for the druid that are cast offensively:
Arc Lightning
Bombardment
Cometfall
Deadfall
Drown
Freeze
Hungry Gizzard
Icelance
Sudden Stalagmite

The 3 books on elemental environs (Frostburn, Sandstorm and Stormscape) each include a handful of such spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
elfinn3 03-14-07, 04:19 PM	I am running a game with a druid who wants to use "Augment Summoning" to beef up her Summon Nature's Ally. According to the rules, she has to take "Spell Focus (conjuration)" first, but it appears that this feat would really do her no good, since all a druid's conjurations either offer no saving throw or offer saves on things like cure, where you don't ever use it. She feels like she is taking two feats just to use the one, and justifiably so. I am thinking of making a house rule to offset the cost and make the "Spell Focus" worth it. Maybe it will act like "Extend Spell" or perhaps she could summon as a standard action instead of a full round action. Any suggestions on how to make this worth it without making it unbalanced? :confused:
tarkin 03-14-07, 04:33 PM	Stop. Think. Do you think the game designers are morons? That they did not realize how crappy a feat Spell Focus (Conjuration) is? No? You will admit they have brains? OK, great for you. Now, can you think of any reason why you would intentionally give a feat as a pre-req that was a sucky feat? Like say, if you had a really cool, extra powerfull feat, and wanted to balance it. Like say Augment Summoning that grants a +4 to Con and Strength, effectively making the creatures about 2 levels higher, with not even a metamagic cost. Yes, she IS taking two feats to get one. That is what the game designer thought she HAD to do to be fair to get that one great feat. Pre-Req feats are sometimes intentionally sucky. This is a prime example. Another is Toughness/Dwarven Defender. If she does not want the incredibally powerfull Augmented Summoning, at the cost the game designer wanted her to pay, then she should take something else. Alternatively, if I was feeling generous, I would rule that she can have Augmented Summoning with no pre-req cost - but it it now a metamagic feat, costing +1 level. P.S. if you think Spell Focus (Conjuration) is bad, take a look at Greater Spell Focus (Abjurataion), which is used a a pre-req for the Iniate of the Seven Veils.
Dastir 03-14-07, 04:35 PM	Very well spoken sir... :) We had the exact same debate in my group... as if Druids weren't powerful, enough already...
yonman 03-14-07, 04:51 PM	Just so you're aware, but there are a lot of Conjuration Arcane spells that need a saving throw in the accessories, including the Spell Compendium.
Hariman 03-15-07, 10:57 PM	Just so you're aware, but there are a lot of Conjuration Arcane spells that need a saving throw in the accessories, including the Spell Compendium. The 4th Level Orbs, Stinking Cloud, Blast of Fire, Arc of Lightning and Vitriolic Sphere come to mind. But, yeah, it's a not so good feat to offset a much better feat. Just like all of the great spellcasting prestige classes that require "Skill Focus: Junk" or Combat Casting.
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 11:24 PM	Combat casting isn't total junk, to be honest, but I do wish it granted more than just +4.
Nephlite 03-15-07, 11:56 PM	I am running a game with a druid who wants to use "Augment Summoning" to beef up her Summon Nature's Ally. According to the rules, she has to take "Spell Focus (conjuration)" first, but it appears that this feat would really do her no good, since all a druid's conjurations either offer no saving throw or offer saves on things like cure, where you don't ever use it. She feels like she is taking two feats just to use the one, and justifiably so. I am thinking of making a house rule to offset the cost and make the "Spell Focus" worth it. Maybe it will act like "Extend Spell" or perhaps she could summon as a standard action instead of a full round action. Any suggestions on how to make this worth it without making it unbalanced? :confused: You feel upset at this. Look at the Cleric: he only has the cure spells working (they have a save versus undead). And hey you can do that too. New Slogan: SF Conj: at least you can affect undead better!
TygerTyger 03-16-07, 10:30 AM	Yes, admitedly, for a druid its not that great a feat, but like has been said above, its the price he pays for having all of his summoned critters automatically have Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance cast upon them. And wait... because its not actually those spells, the summoned critters can still benefit from actual castings of those spells... in effect getting +8 to STR and +8 to CON.... not too shabby now hmm? For Arcane casters, the feat is even better, as things like Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, the Orb line of spells, and Web are all DC dependent. Hmmmm... I was thinking of not taking the feat, until I wrote this. Now my wizard is going to have it as well. :)
kjenks 03-16-07, 12:24 PM	In Living Greyhawk, my wizard 7 has Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Sculpt Spell. These are just awesome for Grease, Glitterdust and Evard's Black Tentacles. I'm looking forward to picking up Orb of Fire next level. The damage is good, and the icing on the cake is the Fort save DC 21 or be dazed for 1 round. But my Living Greyhawk druid 10 rejected the idea of Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning in part because so few druid spells from the Conjuration school allow saving throws and in part because he hasn't maximized his wisdom, so his save DCs aren't way up there anyway. (Besides, he has a direct damage combat style that seems to work better for him than the "wall of fur" style.)
Tonus 03-16-07, 07:39 PM	As has been pointed out, often a so-so feat is a pre-req for something really great. Even so, Spell Focus - conjuration isn't entirely worthless for a druid. Cure spells can be used against undead - and since you don't have turning and your summoned animals may be dubious about attacking undead, the extra +1 DC on the cure spells can be useful. Plus, it helps the DC on Fire Seeds. Seems to me to be fine as is.
navar100 03-16-07, 11:13 PM	You feel upset at this. Look at the Cleric: he only has the cure spells working (they have a save versus undead). And hey you can do that too. New Slogan: SF Conj: at least you can affect undead better! With Complete Divine there's Divine Vengeance at level 2 and Cometfall at level 6.
hreslingozer 03-16-07, 11:24 PM	Fireseeds as well.
celloshane 03-17-07, 01:52 AM	Spell Compendium adds a multitude of Conjuration spells for the druid that are cast offensively: Arc Lightning Bombardment Cometfall Deadfall Drown Freeze Hungry Gizzard Icelance Sudden Stalagmite The 3 books on elemental environs (Frostburn, Sandstorm and Stormscape) each include a handful of such spells.