Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sothas 09-11-07, 09:03 PM	Forgive me if this has been covered, i couldn't find it anywhere. The argument came up with everyone I play with. Here's the argument: Spell focus gives a +1 bonus in 3.5. This means for that one type of spell you get the bonus. This is one feat. On the deffensive side you have increase on saves via feats like Iron Will. These feats give you a +2 to that save. One feat for one feat is uneven. So the arguement came up that you can get a second feat to make it even, which really isn't even because 2 feats are expended to counteract the one feat. Also there are other feats that will increase your saves even further. Making Greater Spell Focus completly worthless. Also the increase to saves applies to other things other than spells (i.e. poison and such), making the feat just that more powerful. On another note, races with bonuses to saves get a +2 bonus, like elves. The argument from my DM (who is in favor of the 3.5 spell focus) is that the decrease in bonus of the feat allows for more survivability of characters. But then we all brought up the obvious that it also increases the survivability of monsters which then decreases the survivability of the character, making that point invalid, also the character is more likely to have Spell Focus than the monster. The specialist has also been nerfed a bit too, to the point where it's not worth using it, in my opinion, unless you use the unearthed arcana, but that's another issue. So anyway, a little long there, sorry. But the question is. What in the holy good crappy were they thinking when they killed Spell Focus?
The9Circles 09-11-07, 09:19 PM	Your forgetting a minor detail...not all spells in a particular school have the same save type. My example isn't the best but the truth is...to be sure (except for WIll Disbelief and Compulsion/Charm/Domination type spells) you really need 2 of those +2 feats to counter 2 Spell Focus feats. (e.g. Phantasmal Killer which is Will and Fort, Prismatic Spray has all 3 types.)
Bopple 09-11-07, 09:19 PM	Well, the thing is, spell DC is still high enough to get things killed/nullified.
Colmarr 09-11-07, 09:46 PM	There are two other factors: 1. The bonus to DC from Spell Focus applies when the PC/monster in question wants it to apply (ie. whenever the PC/monster chooses to cast a spell of the appropriate school that has a save). 2. A bonus to a save is entirely dependant on your opponent. Lightning Reflexes is completely useless against any opponent that isn't a spellcaster, and even then it's only useful against a portion of that opponent's spell repertoire (those with Reflex saves). Overall, IMO, an "at-will" +1 to DC is equal to a situational +2 to saves. By way of example, look at the number of people who advocate Skill Focus (Concentration) over Combat Casting. The former is an ever-present +3 to concentration checks (including those to avoid spell failure); the latter is a +4 to checks to avoid spell failure but only while on the defensive, grappled, or pinned. Whether a +1 to DC of a specific school (or +2 to a specific save) is worth a feat is another question entirely :)
dman11235 09-11-07, 11:43 PM	Then there's also the prereqs that the spell focus feats serve as (Archmage anyone?) and epic spell focus, etc.
sijigs 09-12-07, 12:01 AM	To the OP. You're right, there are a lot of feats that are not worth taking and this is one of them. Do you have access to the Spell Compendium or Complete Mage? Pick up a reserved feat - 'nuff said.
DM Zoc 09-12-07, 12:36 AM	Like weapon focus, it gives a minor bonus that can apply just about every round of every combat. While other feats can do more dramatic things (spirited charge and sudden empower both come to mind), those only apply once per day or so. While it's nice to deal double damage with 5% of your attacks in a day, I would personally rather increase my chance to hit by 5% on each attack. Also, I'd like to reiterate what others have said about situational bonuses; most of the +2 save feats will never apply on any given round. For most NPCs, these feats will never apply.
Keladelros 09-12-07, 02:42 AM	To the OP. You're right, there are a lot of feats that are not worth taking and this is one of them. Do you have access to the Spell Compendium or Complete Mage? Pick up a reserved feat - 'nuff said. Ooook then... not sure where your getting that... As bopple said, Spell DC is still high enough to make those pesky +2 Will/Fort/Ref feats not so much of a big deal, and increasing your spell-saves in any way as a spellcaster is good. Spell Focus increases spells in one area by +1 which is pretty good. At low levels it works wonders on your opponents when it can be a difference of 1 on a die roll that can turn the tide. It also is a prereq feat for many PrC's. Also, they were thinking to balance out the game. Which they did nicely. (If only they would have completed 3.5 before moving onto 4.0)
Sothas 09-12-07, 10:07 AM	I understand the situational thing, it makes some sense, however, the bonus applies to more than just spells, while spell focus is only spells. Lets do some simple math comparison shall we? There are 8 schools (not including universal) this means that 1 out of 8 spells will get your bonus. There are three saves. One third of the time, against spells, you get a spiffy giant bonus. Yes, you still have the choice of which spell you use, and the choice of preparing the spell with the bonus. However, if you are the primary, or only caster in the group, memorizing more than half of your spells of that one school is suicide. So at the VERY most you have a 1 out of 4 chance of using said spell focus, the odds are still in the favor of the target, and as I said before, the save bonus applies to more than just spells. Let's go the next step then. Three feats later, you have a +2 to all your saves, therefore, the situational part is gone. Your +2 now applies to all spells requiring a save, and beyond that, disease, poisons, traps, and so on. A wizard, three feats later, has less that half of his spells using the bonus. So while the target will always get a +2, the caster won't even always get his +1, again, where's the balance in this? Edit Addition: As for the PrC thing I have two points. 1. There are 8 different Spell Focus feats making those oh so many PrC's harder to get because they all use different schools, you maybe have 2 classes that use that focus, and yes I have TONS of books, and not just WotC published. 2. I don't want to waste a bad feat on a good PrC. Do you?
Puca 09-12-07, 10:33 AM	Your argument assumes that having a high DC is of the same value as having a high save. Its apples and oranges. If you are focused on spells where the DC really matters, illusions, enchantments, save-or-dies, then an additional +1 to the DC is that much more often that opponents, any opponent regardless of his modifier to the save and how he got it, are going to fail that save. If your DC matters, increasing it even by a little is objectively an improvement.
Bob Loblaw 09-12-07, 11:18 AM	I understand the situational thing, it makes some sense, however, the bonus applies to more than just spells, while spell focus is only spells. Lets do some simple math comparison shall we? There are 8 schools (not including universal) this means that 1 out of 8 spells will get your bonus. The math is off. If I have Spell Focus (evocation), you can bet that most of my spell selections will be from the school of evocation. This is going to be better than 1 out of 8 spells. Also, you may have noticed that some schools are rather large (transmutation) while others are rather small (necromancy). 1 out of 8 is not accurate at all. There are three saves. One third of the time, against spells, you get a spiffy giant bonus. Again, the math is off. The caster has the option of selecting spells that target certain saves. In addition, there are more spells that target Will saves than Fortitude and Reflex combined (at least in Core, I haven't counted the ones outside of Core). Yes, you still have the choice of which spell you use, and the choice of preparing the spell with the bonus. However, if you are the primary, or only caster in the group, memorizing more than half of your spells of that one school is suicide. So at the VERY most you have a 1 out of 4 chance of using said spell focus, the odds are still in the favor of the target, and as I said before, the save bonus applies to more than just spells. Even the primary caster is going to have to sacrifice spells for other options. Even at 20th level, he cannot prepare enough spells to handle all situations. He is going to have to focus. In fact, he is more likely to focus as he levels since he can afford wands, scrolls, and staffs to cover utility spells. Let's go the next step then. Three feats later, you have a +2 to all your saves, therefore, the situational part is gone. Your +2 now applies to all spells requiring a save, and beyond that, disease, poisons, traps, and so on. This is true, but the low saves of any character will only be able to help up to about level 13. Without those feats, the character will have a problem up to level 7. When I say a problem, I mean needing a natural 20. The feats that provide a +2 bonus are nice, but still a bit weak. A wizard, three feats later, has less that half of his spells using the bonus. He also doesn't need to improve all his spell saves. The caster has the option of selecting spells that don't require saves in the first place. He can also choose which spells to cast at which targets. He shouldn't cast Implosion on the dwarf fighter when he can cast Blasphemy instead. So while the target will always get a +2, the caster won't even always get his +1, again, where's the balance in this? The balance lies in the fact that the caster can already get his DCs up to the point where the +2 bonus isn't going to be useful. Spell DCs improve faster than the saving throws, even if we ignore the feats. The minimum DC is 10 + 1.5 x spell level. At absolute minimum, the caster's 9th level spell DC is 23. The weakest save is +6. This means that 80% of the time, the spell succeeds. Adding a whopping +2 to the save brings this up to a 30% success rate for the victim. Still not all that great. Targeting those low saves is what casters should be doing.
Sothas 09-12-07, 12:06 PM	The math is off. If I have Spell Focus (evocation), you can bet that most of my spell selections will be from the school of evocation. This is going to be better than 1 out of 8 spells. Also, you may have noticed that some schools are rather large (transmutation) while others are rather small (necromancy). 1 out of 8 is not accurate at all. The "1 out of 8" is a generalization, because as you said, some have more, some have less. And in your example, most transmutation spells are personal, while necromancy are offensive, which is why there are more transmutation spells, making the upping the DCs in necromancy more beneficial. Again, the math is off. The caster has the option of selecting spells that target certain saves. In addition, there are more spells that target Will saves than Fortitude and Reflex combined (at least in Core, I haven't counted the ones outside of Core). While one can make an educated guess as to what saves are higher, one cannot be completely certain, ability scores, items, feats, and class abilities that the caster doesn't know about may come into effect. And if there are more spells that target will saves, then that makes Iron Will even that much more overpowering against a caster, especially the illusionist or enchanter. Even the primary caster is going to have to sacrifice spells for other options. Even at 20th level, he cannot prepare enough spells to handle all situations. He is going to have to focus. In fact, he is more likely to focus as he levels since he can afford wands, scrolls, and staffs to cover utility spells. This is true, however, at that point in time the opposing force will also have items to further increase their abilities, Cloak of Resistance +5 anyone? This is true, but the low saves of any character will only be able to help up to about level 13. Without those feats, the character will have a problem up to level 7. When I say a problem, I mean needing a natural 20. The feats that provide a +2 bonus are nice, but still a bit weak. Um... are you kidding? You're also forgetting classes with high saves like monks and paladins. Don't forget the classes with two high saves, and the fighter with even a 12 wis and Iron Will will be a little difficult to take out by an illusionist or enchanter. I've tried. He also doesn't need to improve all his spell saves. The caster has the option of selecting spells that don't require saves in the first place. He can also choose which spells to cast at which targets. He shouldn't cast Implosion on the dwarf fighter when he can cast Blasphemy instead. I'll ignore the horrible example of blasphemy on a fighter, why aren't you dominating, or if you really want to damage, AoE spells? Let's get to the point though. Again, you can guess what saves are higher, but you can't know for sure. And with those spells that don't require saves, the Spell Focus feat, which is what we're talking about, doesn't have an effect either, so this point you're trying to make in not valid. The balance lies in the fact that the caster can already get his DCs up to the point where the +2 bonus isn't going to be useful. Spell DCs improve faster than the saving throws, even if we ignore the feats. The minimum DC is 10 + 1.5 x spell level. At absolute minimum, the caster's 9th level spell DC is 23. The weakest save is +6. This means that 80% of the time, the spell succeeds. Adding a whopping +2 to the save brings this up to a 30% success rate for the victim. Still not all that great. Targeting those low saves is what casters should be doing. Seriously, what characters do you make. because I'd have to say, i make a lot more saves than that. And if you really do have an amazingly low will save(for example), and for some reason you don't have an ability mod, or feat, and you're high level when all those bonuses are really go to sky rocket, why in the good graces of Hieronous do you not have a Circlet of the Iron Mind, if you use S&S, or Mempo of Pure Thought, for you oriental lovers, which is WotC btw, or why not just cloak of resistance + 5? On your point, with high levels really coming into effect with the saves, using magic items, as you mentioned that the wizard will have, this point is valid.
Prof. Fether 09-12-07, 12:36 PM	Bob, while I agree with most of your points I think this last one misses the mark a little. The balance lies in the fact that the caster can already get his DCs up to the point where the +2 bonus isn't going to be useful. Spell DCs improve faster than the saving throws, even if we ignore the feats. The minimum DC is 10 + 1.5 x spell level. At absolute minimum, the caster's 9th level spell DC is 23. The weakest save is +6. This means that 80% of the time, the spell succeeds. Adding a whopping +2 to the save brings this up to a 30% success rate for the victim. Still not all that great. Targeting those low saves is what casters should be doing. Granted, left on their own, spell DCs out pace saving throws, but when you throw in magic items that gap narrows significantly. Resistance (not to mention luck, competence, and insight) bonuses are far more common than DC boosting items (the only one I can think of offhand is a Heighten Rod). So, discounting ability boosting items that both would have, that +6 (assuming a 10 or 11 in the corresponding ability) becomes anywhere from 7-11. All of a sudden, pre feats, they have a 45% chance of saving vs your strongest spells, with the +2 it becomes 55% success, which is dicey considering that would be their weakest save. Of course this is deteriorating into a basic discussion of the magic system and away from the OP, but there you have it. Looks like Sothas beat me to it, sorry for the double post
Hsien 09-12-07, 12:43 PM	I've got no issue with it just being +1 necessarily but I do have one complaint marginally related rant. Spell Focus ( Conj ) as a pre-req for the Augment Summoning feat, in which the summoning spells you use are in no way affected by a DC modifier. sigh. Ok I'm done now, thanks.
perdera 09-12-07, 12:53 PM	While one can make an educated guess as to what saves are higher, one cannot be completely certain, ability scores, items, feats, and class abilities that the caster doesn't know about may come into effect. I find this a bit of a non-answer. The vast majority of the time, at least in my adventures, you can either guess with a very high certainty of success as to what an opponents low saves may be (big and slow = low Reflex, etc) or find it via in game means (Knowledge check, Know Vulnerability spell, etc). Sure, every now and then you get that "oh snap" moment when something completely fails...but hey, that keeps it exciting. Don't forget the classes with two high saves, and the fighter with even a 12 wis and Iron Will will be a little difficult to take out by an illusionist or enchanter. I've tried. Well, sure, there are alot of variables out there. Personally, I feel if you're making an offensive caster you need to go big...max casting stat, etc. If you're not doing that, frequent failure should be expected. This hypothetical (we'll say 10th level-ish) Fighter has, what: 3 base, +1 Wis, +3 resistance item (?), +2 Iron Will = 9 Will save. The Illusionist/Enchanter I'd expect to have a DC something like: 10 base, +6 Int, +4/5 Spell Level = 20-21 DC, that's pretty good odds really. If he added in the two Spell Focus's then thats 22-23 and things don't look so good for the Fighter. I know this is one specific example, but I've run through a few in my head, and there is very little way for a character to get his weak saves up high enough to reliably save against an intelligent spellcaster targeting those weak saves. I don't usually play to the highest levels, so maybe this falls apart then, but I don't feel like it will. I understand your concern, but do you have any proposed changes or brainstorming to discuss? I think moving those Spell Focus's to +2 then +2 would be ridiculous. Maybe there need to be +Spell DC items that are sort of the counter-point to +Resistance items and other +Saving Throw spell bonuses?
Nephlite 09-12-07, 12:54 PM	I've got no issue with it just being +1 necessarily but I do have one complaint marginally related rant. Spell Focus ( Conj ) as a pre-req for the Augment Summoning feat, in which the summoning spells you use are in no way affected by a DC modifier. sigh. Ok I'm done now, thanks. There are a few: Wu Jen have a few Conju spells with saves. Druids have creeping cold. Wizards have the Orb spells. They have saves. Core only? Few conju spells.
perdera 09-12-07, 12:56 PM	I've got no issue with it just being +1 necessarily but I do have one complaint marginally related rant. Spell Focus ( Conj ) as a pre-req for the Augment Summoning feat, in which the summoning spells you use are in no way affected by a DC modifier. sigh. Ok I'm done now, thanks. There are some useful ones out there if you look...Glitterdust (PHB), Web (PHB), Blast of Flame (SC)...it's not so bad unless you focus exclusively on the Summon Monster type spells.
Prof. Fether 09-12-07, 01:03 PM	Ultimately I think Puca and Perdera are on the right track. Any bonus is just that, a bonus, take it and run all the way through the dungeon. Now, if you are constantly coming up short in an area that should be your strength, look to the DM for the answers, not the game, cause he is most likely nerfing you (perhaps subconsciously or for party balance).
dman11235 09-12-07, 01:16 PM	In response to whoever said that they didn't want to waste a bad feat for a good PrC, wild mages are fun and they require the feat magical aptitude. That's a worse feat than spell focus. Yet I'd gladly throw it away to gain access to such a great PrC. It's a balance thing, if you didn't need to waste a feat for a caster PrC, then you'd need to get rid of caster levels.
Duelpersonality 09-12-07, 02:42 PM	There are a few: Wu Jen have a few Conju spells with saves. Druids have creeping cold. Wizards have the Orb spells. They have saves. Core only? Few conju spells. There are some useful ones out there if you look...Glitterdust (PHB), Web (PHB), Blast of Flame (SC)...it's not so bad unless you focus exclusively on the Summon Monster type spells. He's talking about the spells that are actually affected by the Augment Summoning feat, which happens to be almost exclusively the Summon Monster type spells. Yes conjuration has spells that allow a saving throw, but those aren't affected by the other feat that Spell Focus (Conjuration) is a prereq for.
sijigs 09-12-07, 06:58 PM	Ooook then... not sure where your getting that... My point is - spell focus feat sucks IMHO from mid-levels onwards. And I'd rather spend my precious feat somewhere else eg.. storm bolt or residual magic. Spell Focus increases spells in one area by +1 which is pretty good. At low levels it works wonders on your opponents when it can be a difference of 1 on a die roll that can turn the tide. As above. It also is a prereq feat for many PrC's Well, if you have to take it. You have to take it.
zorgling25 09-12-07, 10:36 PM	My point is - spell focus feat sucks IMHO from mid-levels onwards. And I'd rather spend my precious feat somewhere else eg.. storm bolt or residual magic. I fail to see where the problem is. In terms of pure ability, yes Spell Focus is underpowered. So are Dodge and Toughness. Why are there not threads about those feats?
Bob Loblaw 09-12-07, 11:03 PM	This is true, however, at that point in time the opposing force will also have items to further increase their abilities, Cloak of Resistance +5 anyone? And the casters will have improved their DCs with other items like stat boosting items. The DCs still outstrip the saves. Um... are you kidding? You're also forgetting classes with high saves like monks and paladins. Don't forget the classes with two high saves, and the fighter with even a 12 wis and Iron Will will be a little difficult to take out by an illusionist or enchanter. I've tried. I wasn't forgetting, I was ignoring. Those classes are unlikely to want the +2 bonus since there are better ways for them to improve. I'll ignore the horrible example of blasphemy on a fighter, why aren't you dominating, or if you really want to damage, AoE spells? Let's get to the point though. Again, you can guess what saves are higher, but you can't know for sure. And with those spells that don't require saves, the Spell Focus feat, which is what we're talking about, doesn't have an effect either, so this point you're trying to make in not valid.[?QUOTE] I chose blasphemy because there is no save. Dominate has a save. I intentionally was looking for a fortitude save and a spell with no save. Spell Focus isn't needed all the time. Often, casters are better off simply casting spells that don't require a save. That was my point. [QUOTE]Seriously, what characters do you make. because I'd have to say, i make a lot more saves than that. And if you really do have an amazingly low will save(for example), and for some reason you don't have an ability mod, or feat, and you're high level when all those bonuses are really go to sky rocket, why in the good graces of Hieronous do you not have a Circlet of the Iron Mind, if you use S&S, or Mempo of Pure Thought, for you oriental lovers, which is WotC btw, or why not just cloak of resistance + 5? On your point, with high levels really coming into effect with the saves, using magic items, as you mentioned that the wizard will have, this point is valid. I was not using gear. Of course I can make a fighter with all of his saves at +20 or better without leaving core. This only makes it more likely that the casters won't waste their time casting spells that require saves in the first place. I also remember how outrageous the DCs were in 3.0. It was appalling. Things are much better now.
Bob Loblaw 09-12-07, 11:04 PM	I fail to see where the problem is. In terms of pure ability, yes Spell Focus is underpowered. So are Dodge and Toughness. Why are there not threads about those feats? There are. I would say that they pop up more often than Spell Focus threads.
sijigs 09-12-07, 11:04 PM	I fail to see where the problem is. In terms of pure ability, yes Spell Focus is underpowered. So are Dodge and Toughness. Why are there not threads about those feats? Uhm.. not really a problem. More a discussion point I was pointing out to the OP that if I were that said arcane caster with my few feats, Spell Focus wouldn't be one of the first feats I'd pick. UNLESS you had to have it to qualify for a PrC or you can somehow multi-stack it for greater effect.
Sothas 09-13-07, 12:07 AM	Ok, well i see the point now. And using pure WotC stuff I can see this all being ok. But myself and the people i play with use AEG, S&S and other stuff like that with feats like Roughneck, gaining Str mod to fort saves. The +2 is needed. oh well, thanks guys, you helped. :)
Jaxgaret 09-13-07, 12:55 AM	So anyway, a little long there, sorry. But the question is. What in the holy good crappy were they thinking when they killed Spell Focus? They were thinking that casters had way too easy of a time boosting their DCs to the high heavens. There were some other DC-boosting things that they nerfed, too - maybe some magical items? I don't remember, the switch from 3.0 to 3.5 was actually a fair while ago.
Neutronium_Dragon 09-13-07, 12:58 AM	Designer comments around the time 3.5E was released indicated that Greater Spell Focus was considered to be a problem because the total of +4 to DCs (between it and Spell Focus) in 3.0E was too high. Spell Focus by itself (at +2 DC) was balanced in their view. Rather than remove Greater Spell Focus, though, they opted to simply cut the bonus for each in half. (Presumably owing to 3.0E legacy issues.) The end result is that 3.5E Spell Focus is now far weaker than it should be.
Sothas 09-13-07, 10:38 AM	yeah, i know 3.5 came out a long time ago, i'm not stupid. But when it originally came out me and my friends discussed this and decided to use 3.0 spell focus, and now my DM wants to use 3.5 spell focus because it's "the rules." But as i said before, we use a lot of non-core stuff. He's sick of one specific caster, an Abj, not being able to be killed cuz of the veil's DCs from Initiate of the Seven fold veil, but then he has an 18th level human fighter that does several hundred damage in one hit, or a dwarf with over 600 hp at 18th level. that's neither here nor there though, and yeah, i play with a bunch of power gamers, but we all do it, so it's not that big of a deal. :) but as i said, the numbers for core just didn't add up in my head.
BigGus 09-13-07, 11:36 AM	Prof. Fether wrote: Resistance (not to mention luck, competence, and insight) bonuses are far more common than DC boosting items (the only one I can think of offhand is a Heighten Rod). Where did you get the Heighten Rod from? I've looked in the DMG, the SRD, CArc & CDiv and I can't find it anywhere.
Sothas 09-13-07, 12:23 PM	It's not in the complete mage either. However, with all the other rods it's not hard to come up with a heightened spell rod for home grown use.