Spell-like Abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spell-like Abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
yapwx
06-23-07, 11:34 AM If i have Empowered Spell-like Ability and Maximised Spell-like Ability, am i able to use both on 1 spell-like ability in the same round/use?

If so what is the minimun caster level i need to be to cast a 1st level spell-like ability?
Merestil Haye
06-23-07, 11:44 AM If i have Empowered Spell-like Ability and Maximised Spell-like Ability, am i able to use both on 1 spell-like ability in the same round/use? Yes you can, assuming you have chosen the same SLA for both.

If so what is the minimun caster level i need to be to cast a 1st level spell-like ability?A creature can use Empower SLA on an SLA of a level no higher than two less than half his caster level. The formula for Maximise is the same, thus to Empower and Maximise, you can apply both feats to an SLA with a level no higher than four less than half your caster level. That means CL10 for a 1st level SLA.
yapwx
06-23-07, 10:00 PM Is there an official ruling on this, cause from what i read it doesn't say anywhere that they have to stack to determine the minimum caster level.
Merestil Haye
06-24-07, 07:45 AM Meta-SLA feats are to SLAs what metamagic feats are to spells.

If you apply two metamagic feats to the same spell, you increase the spell slot by both modifiers. I cannot see any argument at all that the same principle - that the costs both apply and must both be paid - does not apply to meta-SLA feats.
Witch
06-24-07, 07:53 AM Meta-SLA feats are to SLAs what metamagic feats are to spells.

If you apply two metamagic feats to the same spell, you increase the spell slot by both modifiers. I cannot see any argument at all that the same principle - that the costs both apply and must both be paid - does not apply to meta-SLA feats.

I can. Meta-SLA feats have completely different mechanics from Metamagic feats. Metamagic doesn't have the limitation "choose one spell to apply this to", meta-SLA doesn't have the limitation that both requirements stack.
risner
06-24-07, 10:09 AM Is there an official ruling on this, cause from what i read it doesn't say anywhere that they have to stack to determine the minimum caster level.

So by your logic a Sorcerer that applies Empower and Maximize to his Fireball gets to pick which he likes? A 5th level Fireball that does 60+5d6 or a 6th level Fireball that does the same? Because he can obviously use both Maximize and Empower while only paying for one right? Yes, that is what you are saying right?

Both Meta SLA must be paid, nothing in D&D is free (except a club and quarterstaff.)
yapwx
06-24-07, 11:04 AM So by your logic a Sorcerer that applies Empower and Maximize to his Fireball gets to pick which he likes? A 5th level Fireball that does 60+5d6 or a 6th level Fireball that does the same? Because he can obviously use both Maximize and Empower while only paying for one right? Yes, that is what you are saying right?

Both Meta SLA must be paid, nothing in D&D is free (except a club and quarterstaff.)

No Sorcerer cast spells as spells not spell-like abilities. So he still have to use a higher level slot of the total value to cast metamagic spells. Cause it is stated in the rules.

But i thought Empower and Maximise Spell-like Abilities work a bit like Sudden Metamagic Spells, where applying them dun increase the effective spell level. So if applying both just uses the higher of the two to determine caster level needed instead of adding both.

So thats why i want to find an official ruling on it.
Tallow
06-24-07, 12:02 PM Actually, I'd rule exactly the opposite. I'd say that having a spell-like ability be a spell of a level equal or less than 1/2 your level -2 is a pre-requisite of the feat. Being such, taking two feats that enhance the same spell-like ability does not stack the pre-req, as pre-req's don't get stacked.

You can only use each feat effect 3 times per day max.

So for a Warlock, you could cast an Empowered Maximized eldritch blast 3 times a day. Or I would say you could split them up and go Empowered 3 times a day and maximized 3 times a day. Or both 2 times a day with one combined once a day.

Furthermore, these feats are "GENERAL" feats. Not Metamagic feats. So the rules for Metamagic does not apply to these feats.

Andy
risner
06-24-07, 09:13 PM Furthermore, these feats are "GENERAL" feats. Not Metamagic feats. So the rules for Metamagic does not apply to these feats.

The whole logic of this position doesn't make sense. So you basically say if I wanted to make a +1 full plate, I could pay the 2,000 gp for the +1 magic, the 300 gp for the masterwork, or the 1,500 gp for the full plate; whichever is higher? So +1 full plate should cost 2,000 gp (because the 300 and 1,500 is included for free because I am paying the higher amount.)

Nothing in this game gives you something for free, everything that has a cost must be paid or you break the paradigm of the game. Logic suggests that using two abilities and paying the "higher" of the two and not the "stacking" of the two is no fair, balanced, or logical.

Can you point out a single example where you can pay the cost for one ability and you gain the benefits of a second ability for free?
Tallow
06-24-07, 09:19 PM The whole logic of this position doesn't make sense. So you basically say if I wanted to make a +1 full plate, I could pay the 2,000 gp for the +1 magic, the 300 gp for the masterwork, or the 1,500 gp for the full plate; whichever is higher? So +1 full plate should cost 2,000 gp (because the 300 and 1,500 is included for free because I am paying the higher amount.)

Nothing in this game gives you something for free, everything that has a cost must be paid or you break the paradigm of the game. Logic suggests that using two abilities and paying the "higher" of the two and not the "stacking" of the two is no fair, balanced, or logical.

Can you point out a single example where you can pay the cost for one ability and you gain the benefits of a second ability for free?

Actually your logic is goofy. There are specific rules, spelled out in no uncertain terms, how to build and/or buy magic items. Your analogy is flawed because you are still trying to equate the feats into something they are not.

Empowered SLA, Heightened SLA, Maximized SLA, Quickened SLA are individual "GENERAL" feats, and thus are not metamagic feats. They do not follow the rules of metamagic feats. They follow their own rules. They don't add to the caster level of a spell or spell-like ability. They have a pre-req. They cannot be used on a SLA that is more than 1/2 the level minus a certain number (in the case of some -2.) There is nothing that would indicate that to use two of these feats on the same SLA, that the SLA would have to be 1/2 the caster level minus both amounts. This is not in the rules for the feats. No where does it even allude to this.

If you want to house rule it this way, fine. But stop blowing smoke out your behind and spouting ridiculous analogies that are obviously false to try and make your point.
yapwx
06-24-07, 10:02 PM Can you point out a single example where you can pay the cost for one ability and you gain the benefits of a second ability for free?

Well there are Sudden Spells, where applying them are all for free, without increase in spell level or needing higher spell level slots. So there free. All your reasons from the start are not helping to clear this up. All are just your way of thinking and are just house-ruling. I want to find out if there is an official ruling on this. Even if it is from an official FAQs it would help.

Nothing in this game gives you something for free, everything that has a cost must be paid or you break the paradigm of the game.

If you read the rules you will be able to find lots of things that can be free. Like casting Wish for free (Planar Shepherd), casting Miracle for free (Dweomerkeeper), etc...

If you want to house rule it this way, fine. But stop blowing smoke out your behind and spouting ridiculous analogies that are obviously false to try and make your point.

Thank you. risner is just being a baby and needs a cookie.
risner
06-25-07, 02:34 AM Empowered SLA, Heightened SLA, Maximized SLA, Quickened SLA are individual "GENERAL" feats, and thus are not metamagic feats.

Please stop shaking the straw man.

Let us just pretend there is no such thing as Metamagic feats.

Your position is still flawed logically and still not balanced. You gain something without paying the cost and there is no other example in D&D where you gain something without paying the cost.

If you are a Half Dragon (LA+3) and a Mineral Warrior (LA+1), your logic would suggest a ECL 5 Fighter could be build this way:
Half Dragon/Half Human (LA+3) Mineral Warrior (LA+1 but ignored due to LA+3 template) Fighter 2

There simply isn't any way to suggest the cost should not need to be paid. It is illogical.
yapwx
06-25-07, 03:44 AM Please stop shaking the straw man.

Let us just pretend there is no such thing as Metamagic feats.

Your position is still flawed logically and still not balanced. You gain something without paying the cost and there is no other example in D&D where you gain something without paying the cost.

If you are a Half Dragon (LA+3) and a Mineral Warrior (LA+1), your logic would suggest a ECL 5 Fighter could be build this way:
Half Dragon/Half Human (LA+3) Mineral Warrior (LA+1 but ignored due to LA+3 template) Fighter 2

There simply isn't any way to suggest the cost should not need to be paid. It is illogical.

Why are you not taking Sudden Metamagic as examples? They are able to be used on 1 spell, all for free.
risner
06-25-07, 10:45 AM Why are you not taking Sudden Metamagic as examples?

To answer your question the same as above, because these are general feats and metamagic feats are a different beast and have nothing to do with general feats.

Sudden Metamagic feats are have no cost and a X/day limit.

These SLA feats have both a cost (the SLA must be higher level than minimum) and a X/day limit.

They are substantially different than Metamagic feats and I have seen no compelling reason presented why the cost should not need to be paid like everything else in the game that has a cost.

I may be wrong, so can anyone give me an example of something that has a cost that can be ignored when combined with a similar thing that also has a cost? Any example? Examples of things that have no cost does not advance your position (like Sudden metamagic, etc)
Leilond
06-25-07, 10:56 AM Are there someone that really think that Empowered Spell-like Ability and Maximised Spell-like don't stack their prerequisite?
This mean that EVERY maximised spell like ability will be ALWAYS empoered, because it's for free!!! Come on
Tallow
06-25-07, 05:40 PM To answer your question the same as above, because these are general feats and metamagic feats are a different beast and have nothing to do with general feats.

Sudden Metamagic feats are have no cost and a X/day limit.

These SLA feats have both a cost (the SLA must be higher level than minimum) and a X/day limit.

They are substantially different than Metamagic feats and I have seen no compelling reason presented why the cost should not need to be paid like everything else in the game that has a cost.

I may be wrong, so can anyone give me an example of something that has a cost that can be ignored when combined with a similar thing that also has a cost? Any example? Examples of things that have no cost does not advance your position (like Sudden metamagic, etc)

Um, they don't have a cost. They have a prerequisite. There is a difference.

I suggest we just ask customer service or something and see what they say.

The OP doesn't seem satisfied with the conversation here for an answer. I don't know if there is an official ruling on this, and I can't find one in the FAQ.

The other guy doesn't seem to want to listen to any other opinion but his own, and I've noticed this across several threads.

So lets just ask the question, and then let it die?

Andy
Tallow
06-25-07, 05:48 PM Are there someone that really think that Empowered Spell-like Ability and Maximised Spell-like don't stack their prerequisite?
This mean that EVERY maximised spell like ability will be ALWAYS empoered, because it's for free!!! Come on

I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it works. You don't get your SLA every time you use it like this. It has a maximum of 3 times per day with the feat (or less if your SLA can only be used 1 or 2 times a day.)

And it isn't for "FREE." There is no COST unless spending a feat is considered a cost. If there is no cost, then it can't be for free, because saying its for free is inferring that there is a cost involved.

You spend one of your precious feat slots (especially for Warlocks) on empowered SLA, Heightened SLA, Maximized SLA, and quickened SLA, of which most require at least Caster Level 6, and one requires Caster level 10. So you can't even take the feats until 6th level, which means you are devoting 6th, 9th, 12th, and 15th level feats to these four abilities. Are you saying that by 9th level, its too powerful to have 3x/day a Maximized and Heightened SLA?

I don't. Especially since the Warlock gets hardly any feats (7 total, 8 if human) and you use 1/2 to over half your feats just for this?

That's my opinion. I'm done arguing this point until we get some official response from Customer Service on this (assuming the OP or myself actually decides to send an email off to get the question answered.)

Andy
Leilond
06-26-07, 03:52 AM I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it works. You don't get your SLA every time you use it like this. It has a maximum of 3 times per day with the feat (or less if your SLA can only be used 1 or 2 times a day.)

And it isn't for "FREE." There is no COST unless spending a feat is considered a cost. If there is no cost, then it can't be for free, because saying its for free is inferring that there is a cost involved.

You spend one of your precious feat slots (especially for Warlocks) on empowered SLA, Heightened SLA, Maximized SLA, and quickened SLA, of which most require at least Caster Level 6, and one requires Caster level 10. So you can't even take the feats until 6th level, which means you are devoting 6th, 9th, 12th, and 15th level feats to these four abilities. Are you saying that by 9th level, its too powerful to have 3x/day a Maximized and Heightened SLA?

I don't. Especially since the Warlock gets hardly any feats (7 total, 8 if human) and you use 1/2 to over half your feats just for this?

That's my opinion. I'm done arguing this point until we get some official response from Customer Service on this (assuming the OP or myself actually decides to send an email off to get the question answered.)

Andy
So
- if you take the "empower spell-like ability" you need "pay a cost" each time you use it
- If you take that feat after the "maximized spell-like ability" you stop paying any cost to use it.
That's at least funny
I'm pretty sure you're totally wrong
Tallow
06-26-07, 07:02 AM So
- if you take the "empower spell-like ability" you need "pay a cost" each time you use it
- If you take that feat after the "maximized spell-like ability" you stop paying any cost to use it.
That's at least funny
I'm pretty sure you're totally wrong

Um... you aren't paying a cost for the first one. You just can't apply the feat to a spell like ability that mimics a spell of higher level than 1/2 your caster level -2. There is no cost. There is simply a rule for what level of spell like ability you can apply the feat to.
Tallow
06-26-07, 07:24 AM There seems to be a fundamental difference in our arguments. And the arguments will keep going round and round unless we first resolve the fundamental difference.

1) Are you assuming that the feats can be used at will on any spell like ability? Not so, when taking the feat, you must apply it to one spell like ability, and then forever, that is the only spell like ability you can use that feat on. Then it is only usable up to 3 times per day maximum (assuming the spell like ability can be used 3 times per day or more.)

2) Are you assuming that there is a cost to using the feat like meta magic? There isn't. There is simply a limitation on which spell like abilities you can apply the feat to when you choose the feat.

Think of it like when making a wand or potion. The limit as to what level spells you can make into a wand or potion aren't part of the cost of making a wand or potion. It is simply an inherent limitation of the magic being crafted. It is similar for the feats described above.

Andy
yapwx
06-27-07, 11:44 PM Thank you for writing. In order to cast a 1st level spell-like ability using both the feats Empower and Quicken Spell-like Ability, you would need to be at least a 10th level caster. So the highest level spell you could affect using both feats is 6th level spell as a 20th level caster. Just reference the chart on page 304 of the Monster Manual. Please let me know if you need anymore help!

Good Gaming!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Paul
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast

This is just in from Wizards Customer Service, Metamagic Spell-like Abilities do not stack for requirements. So Tallow is right all along.
Tallow
06-28-07, 12:32 AM This is just in from Wizards Customer Service, Metamagic Spell-like Abilities do not stack for requirements. So Tallow is right all along.

Thanks for that! What's the email for CS anyways?

Andy
yapwx
06-28-07, 12:36 AM wizardscusthelp@wizards.com
Tallow
06-28-07, 12:43 AM wizardscusthelp@wizards.com

Thanks! Hopefully now we can put this thread to rest <G> don't know why I let myself get so worked up over stuff sometimes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yapwx 06-23-07, 11:34 AM	If i have Empowered Spell-like Ability and Maximised Spell-like Ability, am i able to use both on 1 spell-like ability in the same round/use? If so what is the minimun caster level i need to be to cast a 1st level spell-like ability?
Merestil Haye 06-23-07, 11:44 AM	If i have Empowered Spell-like Ability and Maximised Spell-like Ability, am i able to use both on 1 spell-like ability in the same round/use? Yes you can, assuming you have chosen the same SLA for both. If so what is the minimun caster level i need to be to cast a 1st level spell-like ability?A creature can use Empower SLA on an SLA of a level no higher than two less than half his caster level. The formula for Maximise is the same, thus to Empower and Maximise, you can apply both feats to an SLA with a level no higher than four less than half your caster level. That means CL10 for a 1st level SLA.
yapwx 06-23-07, 10:00 PM	Is there an official ruling on this, cause from what i read it doesn't say anywhere that they have to stack to determine the minimum caster level.
Merestil Haye 06-24-07, 07:45 AM	Meta-SLA feats are to SLAs what metamagic feats are to spells. If you apply two metamagic feats to the same spell, you increase the spell slot by both modifiers. I cannot see any argument at all that the same principle - that the costs both apply and must both be paid - does not apply to meta-SLA feats.
Witch 06-24-07, 07:53 AM	Meta-SLA feats are to SLAs what metamagic feats are to spells. If you apply two metamagic feats to the same spell, you increase the spell slot by both modifiers. I cannot see any argument at all that the same principle - that the costs both apply and must both be paid - does not apply to meta-SLA feats. I can. Meta-SLA feats have completely different mechanics from Metamagic feats. Metamagic doesn't have the limitation "choose one spell to apply this to", meta-SLA doesn't have the limitation that both requirements stack.
risner 06-24-07, 10:09 AM	Is there an official ruling on this, cause from what i read it doesn't say anywhere that they have to stack to determine the minimum caster level. So by your logic a Sorcerer that applies Empower and Maximize to his Fireball gets to pick which he likes? A 5th level Fireball that does 60+5d6 or a 6th level Fireball that does the same? Because he can obviously use both Maximize and Empower while only paying for one right? Yes, that is what you are saying right? Both Meta SLA must be paid, nothing in D&D is free (except a club and quarterstaff.)
yapwx 06-24-07, 11:04 AM	So by your logic a Sorcerer that applies Empower and Maximize to his Fireball gets to pick which he likes? A 5th level Fireball that does 60+5d6 or a 6th level Fireball that does the same? Because he can obviously use both Maximize and Empower while only paying for one right? Yes, that is what you are saying right? Both Meta SLA must be paid, nothing in D&D is free (except a club and quarterstaff.) No Sorcerer cast spells as spells not spell-like abilities. So he still have to use a higher level slot of the total value to cast metamagic spells. Cause it is stated in the rules. But i thought Empower and Maximise Spell-like Abilities work a bit like Sudden Metamagic Spells, where applying them dun increase the effective spell level. So if applying both just uses the higher of the two to determine caster level needed instead of adding both. So thats why i want to find an official ruling on it.
Tallow 06-24-07, 12:02 PM	Actually, I'd rule exactly the opposite. I'd say that having a spell-like ability be a spell of a level equal or less than 1/2 your level -2 is a pre-requisite of the feat. Being such, taking two feats that enhance the same spell-like ability does not stack the pre-req, as pre-req's don't get stacked. You can only use each feat effect 3 times per day max. So for a Warlock, you could cast an Empowered Maximized eldritch blast 3 times a day. Or I would say you could split them up and go Empowered 3 times a day and maximized 3 times a day. Or both 2 times a day with one combined once a day. Furthermore, these feats are "GENERAL" feats. Not Metamagic feats. So the rules for Metamagic does not apply to these feats. Andy
risner 06-24-07, 09:13 PM	Furthermore, these feats are "GENERAL" feats. Not Metamagic feats. So the rules for Metamagic does not apply to these feats. The whole logic of this position doesn't make sense. So you basically say if I wanted to make a +1 full plate, I could pay the 2,000 gp for the +1 magic, the 300 gp for the masterwork, or the 1,500 gp for the full plate; whichever is higher? So +1 full plate should cost 2,000 gp (because the 300 and 1,500 is included for free because I am paying the higher amount.) Nothing in this game gives you something for free, everything that has a cost must be paid or you break the paradigm of the game. Logic suggests that using two abilities and paying the "higher" of the two and not the "stacking" of the two is no fair, balanced, or logical. Can you point out a single example where you can pay the cost for one ability and you gain the benefits of a second ability for free?
Tallow 06-24-07, 09:19 PM	The whole logic of this position doesn't make sense. So you basically say if I wanted to make a +1 full plate, I could pay the 2,000 gp for the +1 magic, the 300 gp for the masterwork, or the 1,500 gp for the full plate; whichever is higher? So +1 full plate should cost 2,000 gp (because the 300 and 1,500 is included for free because I am paying the higher amount.) Nothing in this game gives you something for free, everything that has a cost must be paid or you break the paradigm of the game. Logic suggests that using two abilities and paying the "higher" of the two and not the "stacking" of the two is no fair, balanced, or logical. Can you point out a single example where you can pay the cost for one ability and you gain the benefits of a second ability for free? Actually your logic is goofy. There are specific rules, spelled out in no uncertain terms, how to build and/or buy magic items. Your analogy is flawed because you are still trying to equate the feats into something they are not. Empowered SLA, Heightened SLA, Maximized SLA, Quickened SLA are individual "GENERAL" feats, and thus are not metamagic feats. They do not follow the rules of metamagic feats. They follow their own rules. They don't add to the caster level of a spell or spell-like ability. They have a pre-req. They cannot be used on a SLA that is more than 1/2 the level minus a certain number (in the case of some -2.) There is nothing that would indicate that to use two of these feats on the same SLA, that the SLA would have to be 1/2 the caster level minus both amounts. This is not in the rules for the feats. No where does it even allude to this. If you want to house rule it this way, fine. But stop blowing smoke out your behind and spouting ridiculous analogies that are obviously false to try and make your point.
yapwx 06-24-07, 10:02 PM	Can you point out a single example where you can pay the cost for one ability and you gain the benefits of a second ability for free? Well there are Sudden Spells, where applying them are all for free, without increase in spell level or needing higher spell level slots. So there free. All your reasons from the start are not helping to clear this up. All are just your way of thinking and are just house-ruling. I want to find out if there is an official ruling on this. Even if it is from an official FAQs it would help. Nothing in this game gives you something for free, everything that has a cost must be paid or you break the paradigm of the game. If you read the rules you will be able to find lots of things that can be free. Like casting Wish for free (Planar Shepherd), casting Miracle for free (Dweomerkeeper), etc... If you want to house rule it this way, fine. But stop blowing smoke out your behind and spouting ridiculous analogies that are obviously false to try and make your point. Thank you. risner is just being a baby and needs a cookie.
risner 06-25-07, 02:34 AM	Empowered SLA, Heightened SLA, Maximized SLA, Quickened SLA are individual "GENERAL" feats, and thus are not metamagic feats. Please stop shaking the straw man. Let us just pretend there is no such thing as Metamagic feats. Your position is still flawed logically and still not balanced. You gain something without paying the cost and there is no other example in D&D where you gain something without paying the cost. If you are a Half Dragon (LA+3) and a Mineral Warrior (LA+1), your logic would suggest a ECL 5 Fighter could be build this way: Half Dragon/Half Human (LA+3) Mineral Warrior (LA+1 but ignored due to LA+3 template) Fighter 2 There simply isn't any way to suggest the cost should not need to be paid. It is illogical.
yapwx 06-25-07, 03:44 AM	Please stop shaking the straw man. Let us just pretend there is no such thing as Metamagic feats. Your position is still flawed logically and still not balanced. You gain something without paying the cost and there is no other example in D&D where you gain something without paying the cost. If you are a Half Dragon (LA+3) and a Mineral Warrior (LA+1), your logic would suggest a ECL 5 Fighter could be build this way: Half Dragon/Half Human (LA+3) Mineral Warrior (LA+1 but ignored due to LA+3 template) Fighter 2 There simply isn't any way to suggest the cost should not need to be paid. It is illogical. Why are you not taking Sudden Metamagic as examples? They are able to be used on 1 spell, all for free.
risner 06-25-07, 10:45 AM	Why are you not taking Sudden Metamagic as examples? To answer your question the same as above, because these are general feats and metamagic feats are a different beast and have nothing to do with general feats. Sudden Metamagic feats are have no cost and a X/day limit. These SLA feats have both a cost (the SLA must be higher level than minimum) and a X/day limit. They are substantially different than Metamagic feats and I have seen no compelling reason presented why the cost should not need to be paid like everything else in the game that has a cost. I may be wrong, so can anyone give me an example of something that has a cost that can be ignored when combined with a similar thing that also has a cost? Any example? Examples of things that have no cost does not advance your position (like Sudden metamagic, etc)
Leilond 06-25-07, 10:56 AM	Are there someone that really think that Empowered Spell-like Ability and Maximised Spell-like don't stack their prerequisite? This mean that EVERY maximised spell like ability will be ALWAYS empoered, because it's for free!!! Come on
Tallow 06-25-07, 05:40 PM	To answer your question the same as above, because these are general feats and metamagic feats are a different beast and have nothing to do with general feats. Sudden Metamagic feats are have no cost and a X/day limit. These SLA feats have both a cost (the SLA must be higher level than minimum) and a X/day limit. They are substantially different than Metamagic feats and I have seen no compelling reason presented why the cost should not need to be paid like everything else in the game that has a cost. I may be wrong, so can anyone give me an example of something that has a cost that can be ignored when combined with a similar thing that also has a cost? Any example? Examples of things that have no cost does not advance your position (like Sudden metamagic, etc) Um, they don't have a cost. They have a prerequisite. There is a difference. I suggest we just ask customer service or something and see what they say. The OP doesn't seem satisfied with the conversation here for an answer. I don't know if there is an official ruling on this, and I can't find one in the FAQ. The other guy doesn't seem to want to listen to any other opinion but his own, and I've noticed this across several threads. So lets just ask the question, and then let it die? Andy
Tallow 06-25-07, 05:48 PM	Are there someone that really think that Empowered Spell-like Ability and Maximised Spell-like don't stack their prerequisite? This mean that EVERY maximised spell like ability will be ALWAYS empoered, because it's for free!!! Come on I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it works. You don't get your SLA every time you use it like this. It has a maximum of 3 times per day with the feat (or less if your SLA can only be used 1 or 2 times a day.) And it isn't for "FREE." There is no COST unless spending a feat is considered a cost. If there is no cost, then it can't be for free, because saying its for free is inferring that there is a cost involved. You spend one of your precious feat slots (especially for Warlocks) on empowered SLA, Heightened SLA, Maximized SLA, and quickened SLA, of which most require at least Caster Level 6, and one requires Caster level 10. So you can't even take the feats until 6th level, which means you are devoting 6th, 9th, 12th, and 15th level feats to these four abilities. Are you saying that by 9th level, its too powerful to have 3x/day a Maximized and Heightened SLA? I don't. Especially since the Warlock gets hardly any feats (7 total, 8 if human) and you use 1/2 to over half your feats just for this? That's my opinion. I'm done arguing this point until we get some official response from Customer Service on this (assuming the OP or myself actually decides to send an email off to get the question answered.) Andy
Leilond 06-26-07, 03:52 AM	I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it works. You don't get your SLA every time you use it like this. It has a maximum of 3 times per day with the feat (or less if your SLA can only be used 1 or 2 times a day.) And it isn't for "FREE." There is no COST unless spending a feat is considered a cost. If there is no cost, then it can't be for free, because saying its for free is inferring that there is a cost involved. You spend one of your precious feat slots (especially for Warlocks) on empowered SLA, Heightened SLA, Maximized SLA, and quickened SLA, of which most require at least Caster Level 6, and one requires Caster level 10. So you can't even take the feats until 6th level, which means you are devoting 6th, 9th, 12th, and 15th level feats to these four abilities. Are you saying that by 9th level, its too powerful to have 3x/day a Maximized and Heightened SLA? I don't. Especially since the Warlock gets hardly any feats (7 total, 8 if human) and you use 1/2 to over half your feats just for this? That's my opinion. I'm done arguing this point until we get some official response from Customer Service on this (assuming the OP or myself actually decides to send an email off to get the question answered.) Andy So - if you take the "empower spell-like ability" you need "pay a cost" each time you use it - If you take that feat after the "maximized spell-like ability" you stop paying any cost to use it. That's at least funny I'm pretty sure you're totally wrong
Tallow 06-26-07, 07:02 AM	So - if you take the "empower spell-like ability" you need "pay a cost" each time you use it - If you take that feat after the "maximized spell-like ability" you stop paying any cost to use it. That's at least funny I'm pretty sure you're totally wrong Um... you aren't paying a cost for the first one. You just can't apply the feat to a spell like ability that mimics a spell of higher level than 1/2 your caster level -2. There is no cost. There is simply a rule for what level of spell like ability you can apply the feat to.
Tallow 06-26-07, 07:24 AM	There seems to be a fundamental difference in our arguments. And the arguments will keep going round and round unless we first resolve the fundamental difference. 1) Are you assuming that the feats can be used at will on any spell like ability? Not so, when taking the feat, you must apply it to one spell like ability, and then forever, that is the only spell like ability you can use that feat on. Then it is only usable up to 3 times per day maximum (assuming the spell like ability can be used 3 times per day or more.) 2) Are you assuming that there is a cost to using the feat like meta magic? There isn't. There is simply a limitation on which spell like abilities you can apply the feat to when you choose the feat. Think of it like when making a wand or potion. The limit as to what level spells you can make into a wand or potion aren't part of the cost of making a wand or potion. It is simply an inherent limitation of the magic being crafted. It is similar for the feats described above. Andy
yapwx 06-27-07, 11:44 PM	Thank you for writing. In order to cast a 1st level spell-like ability using both the feats Empower and Quicken Spell-like Ability, you would need to be at least a 10th level caster. So the highest level spell you could affect using both feats is 6th level spell as a 20th level caster. Just reference the chart on page 304 of the Monster Manual. Please let me know if you need anymore help! Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Paul Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast This is just in from Wizards Customer Service, Metamagic Spell-like Abilities do not stack for requirements. So Tallow is right all along.
Tallow 06-28-07, 12:32 AM	This is just in from Wizards Customer Service, Metamagic Spell-like Abilities do not stack for requirements. So Tallow is right all along. Thanks for that! What's the email for CS anyways? Andy
yapwx 06-28-07, 12:36 AM	wizardscusthelp@wizards.com
Tallow 06-28-07, 12:43 AM	wizardscusthelp@wizards.com Thanks! Hopefully now we can put this thread to rest <G> don't know why I let myself get so worked up over stuff sometimes.