Post/Author/DateTime	Post
unundindur 07-21-07, 11:02 AM	I was wondering if a spellcaster could just rule to lower his "hit roll", whcih he doesn't use, and thus increase his armour class? It sounds really stupid to me, but what do RAW, RAI and you look at this? Thanks.
Wraithwin 07-21-07, 11:25 AM	Not quite. Combat Expertise says you can lower your attack roll only when making an Attack or Full Attack action in melee. This means you cannot arbitrarily lower your to-hit to gain an AC bonus, but... Delivering a Touch Attack is an attack action. :) Ranged Touch attacks wouldn't count for this though... But touch ACs are generally way lower than normal ACs. You could always Expertise a Shocking Grasp... Heh.
unundindur 07-21-07, 12:06 PM	Ok, that makes sense. Just out of curiosity. If I then cast a touch-attack spell, then a quickened (insert spell here), I could pull this of? That has to be useful somehow :rolleyes: And it should also work well with that assassin spell which makes all attacks into touch attacks... but that is another topic entirely.
Merestil Haye 07-21-07, 12:18 PM	Delivering a Touch Attack is an attack action. :) This statement isn't quite 100% accurate. A character is permitted to cast a spell (let's say Vampiric Touch, as an example) and deliver it in the same action. Indeed, you can cast the spell, move your speed up to the enemy and attempt the touch attack. Clearly, that action is the Cast a Spell action and not the Attack action. In such cases, you cannot claim the benefit of Combat Expertise as well. It is also possible to cast the spell in one round and deliver it in the next. That would be using an attack action to deliver the spell, and therefore you could claim the benefit of Combat Expertise.
Wraithwin 07-21-07, 12:30 PM	Now, correct me if I'm wrong but... I'm pretty positive that anything requiring an attack roll to hit a target, is considered an attack action, regardless of what told you to make the roll. You can even use Combat Expertise with specialty attack actions such as Trip or Disarm, which in-and-of themselves are not actual attacks - so I see 0.00% reason to say "no, you can't Expertise a touch attack". (Please Note: I apparently have been wrong a lot today. O.o)
Merestil Haye 07-21-07, 01:10 PM	Now, correct me if I'm wrong but... I'm pretty positive that anything requiring an attack roll to hit a target, is considered an attack action, regardless of what told you to make the roll. You can even use Combat Expertise with specialty attack actions such as Trip or Disarm, which in-and-of themselves are not actual attacks - so I see 0.00% reason to say "no, you can't Expertise a touch attack".You are wrong. An attack action is a standard action that you can only take on your turn. It allows you to make an attack. An AoO is an attack, but it does not arise from an attack action - indeed it arises from no type of action whatsoever, since AoOs can be (and almost always are) taken on the turn of the creature that provokes the AoO and not the turn of the creature taking the AoO. When you cast a spell you are using the Cast a Spell action. Some spells allow you to make attack rolls as part of the spell - Scorching Ray, Meteor Swarm and the Orbs come to mind - but you are not taking an attack action, you have cast a spell this round which has consumed at least your standard action. Whe Warlock's Eldritch Blast requires the Use Special Ability action, not an attack action - but as part of that action you make an attack roll. "Attack" and "attack action" are not and have never been synonymous terms. You must use your standard action to take the attack action, or your full-round action to take the full attack action, in order to claim the benefit of Combat Expertise. Casting a spell will not do.
kalstrand 07-21-07, 01:13 PM	An attack action is defined in the PHB on page 139 under the standard action part. An attack action is a standard action used to make a single attack. This attack can be substituted for anything that is an attack for example trip, disarm, sunder, or using a weapon to attack an ememy.
Pentar 07-21-07, 01:19 PM	I agree with Merestil, et all - an attack action is taken as part of a Standard action. Using a touch spell in the same round that you cast it is part of the benefit of that particular spell and is part of the Cast a Spell action. However, I don't feel it is unbalancing or unreasonable to allow the use of Combat Expertise with a touch-spell attack in the same round the spell is cast as a house rule. EDIT: As a note, you do not gain the AC benefit the moment you start the spell (i.e. when you potentially draw AoOs or have other people attacking you as a readied action). The AC benefit only comes in once you've attempted to deliver the attack with an attack roll (regardless of the attack result). Thus it would only apply from the completion of the spell, onwards.
Nom 07-21-07, 06:19 PM	However, I don't feel it is unbalancing or unreasonable to allow the use of Combat Expertise with a touch-spell attack in the same round the spell is cast as a house rule.Let me put the opposite position: I think it's a silly house rule. Normal CE works sort-of like Fighting Defensively. You spend a standard (or full-round) action to "fight" and then put more effort into the defense than offense. In contrast, Cast a Spell is casting a spell. You can't gain extra defense while casting a normal spell; why should a touch spell be any different? Especially because you still successfully cast the spell if you miss; the spell is cast but not delivered so you get to hold the charge and try again the next round. It's not "something for nothing", but it is "something for not much". It also sets a strange precendent that any time you get an attack you can also initiate CE; using this logic you could full attack for all bar your last attack and then initiate CE on the last, thus gaining full CE benefit with negligible penalty.
Pentar 07-22-07, 12:02 AM	It's not "something for nothing", but it is "something for not much". It also sets a strange precendent that any time you get an attack you can also initiate CE; using this logic you could full attack for all bar your last attack and then initiate CE on the last, thus gaining full CE benefit with negligible penalty. Hmm, this last point is a good reason against the potential house rule. I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps some sort of feat that was like; Improved Combat Casting which operates like CE, but for spells that allow an attack roll at the end of it?