Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dragynson1 04-18-07, 07:45 PM	How should these two things work together? Would Blur be a substitute for Hide in plain sight? or does the observation caveat prevent this? The spell grants concealment does that trump observation? or would blur allow someone to stay hidden in front of someone if they were previously hidden before being observed? this one i am fairly sure would work. or would blur have no interaction at all with the hide skill? as an aside answer the same questions Subbing The darkness spell or deeper darkness spell for blur. Last but not least the same questions with displacement and blink please. PS: lots of responses would be good. I am trying to get a ruling other than just NO from My DM, and he said show me a decent thread on the subject.
Nom 04-18-07, 11:03 PM	Actually, the rules aren't explicit about whether blur qualifies as concealment for the purposes of Hide. Based on a lack of statement to the contrary, one would assume that it does. displacement won't, since it doesn't actually grant you total concealment, merely the miss chance (against conventional attacks) as if you were. While blur provides BYO concealment, it doesn't negate the normal requirements. Once you're observed, concealment or cover isn't enough to succeed in a Hide check. You need to achieve total concealment or total cover (or a Bluff check), and can then make a Hide check once you move into sight again. HiPS is different. It allows you to make a Hide check even while observed. Shadowdancer HiPS requires that you be close to "shadows" for this to work (insert long argument about what consistutes "shadows"), but allows you to treat those shadows as providing concealment for the purposes of hiding. In contrast, rangers get the Camoflauge ability which allows them to treat natural terrain as concealment for the purposes of hiding (but need HiPS too before they can hide while observed).
CantripN 04-19-07, 02:07 AM	Yup, those work. Check out Veil of Shadows (SpC) for a nice spell for this... I'm a bit fuzzy about the requirments of hiding, though. I though you just needed concealment or cover, not just Total to Hide once again...
Dheran 04-19-07, 02:37 AM	I'm a bit fuzzy about the requirments of hiding, though. I though you just needed concealment or cover, not just Total to Hide once again... It's not that you need total cover/concealment, it's that you need to be not observed to Hide. Once you've been Spotted, partial cover/concealment isn't adequate, because you're still in sight. Total cover/concealment means they can't see you. But then you don't need to Hide at all. This seems to be a Catch-22 type of situation. The thing that saves it is the Bluff check, which provides a way to divert the observer's attention away from you. Then you can make your way to some place that provides only partial cover/concealment, and Hide again. Magical means of diverting attention may do the job, too.
tarkin 04-19-07, 02:51 PM	1. Blur alone does not let you Hide in Plain sight. 2. You do not need concealment or cover to hide. You need to be un-observed and a hiding spot. Unobserved can be done using Hide In Plain Sight, Bluff, or via concealment. If you have total concealment, than a hiding spot is not needed, because you are not making a Hide Check, you just have total concealment. In an empty room, you can not hide, even if you have partial concealement, because there is no hiding spot. You need something, a chair, a desk, a tree, an ally, SOMETHING to hide behind. As a general rule, most locations have hiding spots. But if the room is described as empty and bare, then you are out of luck. 3. Darkness would prevent someone from observing you. This would substitute for Hide in Plain Sight, as long as your opponent could not see you. 4. Displacement would not let you hide in plain sight. Blink would. Neither spells provide Hiding spots.
dragynson1 04-19-07, 08:57 PM	umm tarkin. concealment or cover is what is needed to hide you cannot hide while being observed thats all the hide skill requires to hide. to stay hidden you need concealment or cover once your hidden your no longer being observed They have to make a spot check at this point to see you pg 76 players handbook and you cant use other creatures ( soft cover)to hide behind, you can use full cover to hide, and you can use full concealment to hide. it even describes why you can and might do that. pg 150 -152 players handbook The darkness spell does not prevent someone from being observed. pg 216 players handbook. it would allow an already hidden person to stay hidden IMO displacement i agree has nothing to do with hide at all. sorry i brought that one up. Blink would allow you to hide, unless somone can see invisible ethereal creatures, and if you timed it right. Staying hidden would require something else though. Blur would allow someone to STAY hidden even right in front of someone. Just as darkness would. once your hidden your no longer being observed. But would not allo wyou to actually do the initial hide right in front of someone like HIPS does.
Nom 04-19-07, 11:08 PM	I'm not so sure about blink. It wouldn't satisfy the concealment condition. Sure, you have total concealment when you blink out, but you also lose any form of concealment when you blink in. Further, you blink "very quickly and at random", which suggests that you wouldn't be gone for long enough to count as "unobserved". Consider that Hiding using Bluff requires a standard action (for the Bluff) and some form of movement (to Hide). Some DMs might allow you to blink into existing concealment and consider that you've become "unobserved" and thus can Hide, but I wouldn't.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 04-20-07, 04:33 AM	I think I'd allow blink. True you're not out of sight for long enough to hide but you can also pass through a small object. That moment where you disappear and reappear on the other side should be enough to let you slip into a new hiding spot unnoticed. I agree that displacement can't work though. you would need to hide both yourself and you're image and that just doesn't work unless you have enough space to hide yourself anyway (total cover). Now what about a tower shield?
dragynson1 04-24-07, 05:13 PM	bump, any other opinions?
VulcanStormwrath 04-24-07, 05:28 PM	According to Blink you can pass through objects since you are ethereal. Is it then possible to wait till you flicker out, step forward and be behind your opponent when you reappear by passing through them, then use the hide skill?
Dheran 04-25-07, 07:52 PM	Is it then possible to wait till you flicker out, step forward and be behind your opponent when you reappear by passing through them, then use the hide skill? No, it's not possible by D&D rules because of the lack of "facing". There is no "behind your opponent" because all characters are assumed to be constantly checking in all directions. The only way to Hide from someone (without extraordinary/supernatural abilities or magic) is to have cover/concealment from their line of sight, which extends in all directions from their square(s) on the map.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 04-26-07, 03:08 AM	For realities sake it should be pointed out that since the blinking is random you would have to basically be leaning against such an opponent as well.