Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mylon 01-21-08, 04:49 AM	One of the players in my group is using a spiked chain build (at level 1!) to do some major damage. And it's just stupidly effective unless the DM starts throwing in lots of ranged encounters. So I wanted a quick clarification on some rules: Improved Trip states that a successful melee trip grants a free attack. Does this include trips with weapons? I've already learned that the AoO for standing up cannot be used to make another trip attempt, which should help reduce the absurdity next session. Another absurdity: Using it two-handed. I don't understand how one would get 1.5x strength by using both hands. I was also thinking of stating that the spiked chain requires a bit of windup, so wouldn't work well in enclosed areas and that a whirlwind attack requires that a range be selected, otherwise the weight isn't at the right distance to hit both near and far opponents. So my major question is the improved trip attack. But any other details would be handy.
kuonji 01-21-08, 06:05 AM	Any successful trip made grants the extra attack from Improved Trip, even one made with a weapon. As for dealing with the trip-monkey build, strong creatures with stability (dwarves, for example), larger creatures, and high str or dex creatures are all good ways to overcome a trip attempt. Then there's tactics like grapple, sunder, disarm, and trip against the PCs. Multiple opponents can help as well. It's a pretty effective build for battlefield control but can be overcome and it does require a moderately high (13) INT score for a fighter type as well as suck up 3 feats to get all the benefits (exotic wpn prof, combat expertise, imp trip). And if you think it's fun now, wait till they learn to cast enlarge person on the guy for another 5' of reach and +5 to the opposed trip roll (+1 strength, +4 size).
Belkar 01-21-08, 11:59 AM	I'm not sure if you're asking with your first question whether the Improved Trip feat grants a free attack after you trip with a weapon, or whether your free attack can be another trip. To answer both, with Improved Trip, you can trip with a weapon (such as a spiked chain), then make an immediate attack against the same target with that same weapon - assuming the trip is successful. That free attack, though, cannot be another trip attempt (simply because you cannot trip a prone target), but could be a regular damage attack or even a sunder or disarm. The 1.5x Str bonus to damage is accurate... we're talking about a 6 foot length of chain here... even though it's weapon finessable, it's far from a light weapon. One more reason this build is often broken. The unbridled munchkinism of the spiked-chain tripper is pretty disgusting...lol... but there are a few tactics your DM may want to consider (aside from simple ranged attacks). As has been mentioned, opponents with multiple legs, or other forms of stability, are pretty easy. As are opponents that simply can't be tripped - such as flying creatures or creatures with no legs at all (ie: worms and such; carrion crawler FTW!). If he insists on pitting humanoids at you - consider the beauty of an NPC cleric with the shatter spell prepared. I've yet to game with a spiked-chain fighter who had a "backup" chain. It's an exotic weapon... and you just don't see it. Your DM might not rule that the chain is a solid object that can be sundered whole via shatter - but one link in that chain sure can! Easy way to rend his chain - all with nothing but a low-level spell. For a more martial approach - since he's built a munchkin tripper, have the DM build a munchkin sunderer - and slice the chain into little bits and pieces. :D
RobbyPants 01-21-08, 12:41 PM	One of the players in my group is using a spiked chain build (at level 1!) to do some major damage. And it's just stupidly effective unless the DM starts throwing in lots of ranged encounters. Yes, trip builds can be pretty effective. It's the best crowd control a non-magic user gets. So I wanted a quick clarification on some rules: Improved Trip states that a successful melee trip grants a free attack. Does this include trips with weapons? Correct. I've already learned that the AoO for standing up cannot be used to make another trip attempt, which should help reduce the absurdity next session. Correct. This is becasue the AoO is resolved before the action that caused it, so the target is still prone. Of course, this does mean that he gets +4 to hit the prone target. Another absurdity: Using it two-handed. I don't understand how one would get 1.5x strength by using both hands. Actually, what's worse is when he gets smart and starts using Power Attack, with the 2:1 ratio for a two-handed weapon. Suddenly those free attacks on the prone targets standing get +8 damage, because he can easily afford the -4 to hit. I was also thinking of stating that the spiked chain requires a bit of windup, so wouldn't work well in enclosed areas and that a whirlwind attack requires that a range be selected, otherwise the weight isn't at the right distance to hit both near and far opponents. Well, technically, the rules don't really handle this. It's assumed the user can always hike-up on their grip too, as it threatens adjacent squares (something most reach weapons don't do). When you say whirlwind attack, you're not talking about the feat, are you? There's no way he could have that at level one. Just a few other pointers, to make sure he's not abusing things: Unless he has Combat Reflexes, he can only make one AoO per round. Even with the feat, it's limited to 1 + his Dex bonus. Moving through a threatened square only provokes one AoO per attacker per round. Thus, if someone moves two squares through a threatened area, it still only generates one AoO. Now, the fighter can still attack multiple opponents per round, but only one AoO per opponent as they move through his threatening squares. While Enlarge Person is scary (it doubles his reach to 20 feet!), it does give him -2 Dex, which will reduce the number of AoOs he gets per round. It's a bit of a trade-off. There are various things the DM can do to keep things interesting. At lower levels, this is when this build dominates. At higher levels, things are harder to trip, or they're flat-out immune to it. It's hard to trip a ghost or a gelatenous cube.
Mylon 01-21-08, 12:42 PM	Thus far three of the "Counters" aren't very effective. Multiple legs doesn't work very well for a medium size monster (most likely to encounter at 1st level) as the stability only negates the +4 bonus from improved trip. Improved Trip by itself seems really powerful. Negates AoO, gives +4 bonus, and gives a free attack if the trip succeeds! Compare to improved grapple which requires improved unarmed strike (a fairly weak feat by itself) and grappling does require making a bit of a sacrifice in mobiliy and area denial and getting assistance from buddies). The free attack from grappling is only unarmed damage, but does not require the feat to get it. As for shatter/sunder? Sure, they work, but in general it's bad form for the DM to use sunder against the PCs. I mean, what if a level 10 character got this really nice +5 weapon, only have one NPC show up and sunder it and everything else he owns? Wealth accumulation is part of the appeal/character advancement of D&D, and encounters even assume a character is decked out with so much wealth for his level.
Mylon 01-21-08, 01:07 PM	Actually, what's worse is when he gets smart and starts using Power Attack, with the 2:1 ratio for a two-handed weapon. Suddenly those free attacks on the prone targets standing get +8 damage, because he can easily afford the -4 to hit. I personally house ruled power attack to be the same as other 2 handed weapons: 1.5x the power attack. I still don't understand the 1.5x strength bonus. That's like saying a 18 strength fighter can get a +6 damage bonus using a mighty longbow because it's a two handed weapon. The design of the weapon does not allow a person to put the extra power that another hand would do as it's not a rigid weapon like a sword. A bow uses two hands, but does not grant the 1.5x strength bonus. Well, technically, the rules don't really handle this. It's assumed the user can always hike-up on their grip too, as it threatens adjacent squares (something most reach weapons don't do). When you say whirlwind attack, you're not talking about the feat, are you? There's no way he could have that at level one. He's stated that he's going to get it later on. Just a few other pointers, to make sure he's not abusing things: Unless he has Combat Reflexes, he can only make one AoO per round. Even with the feat, it's limited to 1 + his Dex bonus. Moving through a threatened square only provokes one AoO per attacker per round. Thus, if someone moves two squares through a threatened area, it still only generates one AoO. Now, the fighter can still attack multiple opponents per round, but only one AoO per opponent as they move through his threatening squares. While Enlarge Person is scary (it doubles his reach to 20 feet!), it does give him -2 Dex, which will reduce the number of AoOs he gets per round. It's a bit of a trade-off. There are various things the DM can do to keep things interesting. At lower levels, this is when this build dominates. At higher levels, things are harder to trip, or they're flat-out immune to it. It's hard to trip a ghost or a gelatenous cube. Where do you get the only one AoO per round per opponent part? If anything this particular player has demonstrated his willingness to break systems before (putting almost nothing into combat and trying to use a lance on a motorcycle to do 2x the damage of a combat-focused character in Scion, building a sociopath in GURPS (though admittedly I prevented him from taking most of the disadvantages he wanted, he still tried somewhat successfully to storm his way through what was designed to be a non-combat encounter) so he's just starting to irk me, even though I've known him for a good many years. The hard part is that he is a decent GM when he runs his own game (using yet another system).
Merestil Haye 01-21-08, 02:15 PM	Where do you get the only one AoO per round per opponent part?At that point he's talking specifically about movement provoking AoOs. An enemy could start adjacent to this guy and hustle all the way around him, and it would provoke one AoO. From the SRD :Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus. (Bolding mine). That's where it comes from. As for Whirlwind Attack, good luck to him. He's already taken three feats (EWP, Combat Expertise and Improved Trip) so at first level cannot really have any more - so right now should not have Combat Reflexes either. To get Whirlwind he needs another four feats. He can't actually get there before 6th level, because of the prereqs on Spring Attack.
Merestil Haye 01-21-08, 02:20 PM	(Clicked Quote instead of Edit, sorry).
RobbyPants 01-21-08, 04:33 PM	I personally house ruled power attack to be the same as other 2 handed weapons: 1.5x the power attack. I still don't understand the 1.5x strength bonus. That's like saying a 18 strength fighter can get a +6 damage bonus using a mighty longbow because it's a two handed weapon. The design of the weapon does not allow a person to put the extra power that another hand would do as it's not a rigid weapon like a sword. A bow uses two hands, but does not grant the 1.5x strength bonus. Well, you can't use Power Attack on ranged weapons, so it's really inapplicable on bows. As for the reasoning on the 2:1, it's probably to help it keep up with Two-Weapon Fighting. Granted, your off-hand weapon is normally light, but I guess if they figured you're tying up two hands with a weapon, you should get more milage out of the feat. As for the 1.5 Str bonus nomrally, it's because two arms are stronger than one. It's the same reason that people swing a baseball bat with two hands. Where do you get the only one AoO per round per opponent part? Merestil Haye did a better job at clarifying. I was refering to AoOs generated by movement only. I wanted to make sure the player wasn't abusing that part. A lot of "broken" rules are often the result of misunderstanings of the rules. Not that I'm saying that's the case here. A good trip build is pretty potent. I'm just trying to make sure it's not too potent. ;) If anything this particular player has demonstrated his willingness to break systems before (putting almost nothing into combat and trying to use a lance on a motorcycle to do 2x the damage of a combat-focused character in Scion, building a sociopath in GURPS (though admittedly I prevented him from taking most of the disadvantages he wanted, he still tried somewhat successfully to storm his way through what was designed to be a non-combat encounter) so he's just starting to irk me, even though I've known him for a good many years. The hard part is that he is a decent GM when he runs his own game (using yet another system). Yeah, that can be frustrating. Really, all you can do is make sure he's following the rules, and hopefully the DM can compensate by adjusting encounters as needed. That, or you could always talk to him out of game about it.
JamesMaissen 01-21-08, 05:52 PM	One of the players in my group is using a spiked chain build (at level 1!) to do some major damage. And it's just stupidly effective unless the DM starts throwing in lots of ranged encounters. I'm sorry, what's the problem? If he went with a straight damage build (say extra rage and combat reflexes) instead of tripping the things he'd be straight out killing them. Tripping is a nice tactic, but if he becomes a one trick pony he'll regret it later on naturally. But, assuming things are being done correctly, what's the problem with an effective character? Low level is where the fighters easily shine over the casters. -James
mplindustries 01-21-08, 06:11 PM	Thus far three of the "Counters" aren't very effective. Multiple legs doesn't work very well for a medium size monster (most likely to encounter at 1st level) as the stability only negates the +4 bonus from improved trip. Improved Trip by itself seems really powerful. Negates AoO, gives +4 bonus, and gives a free attack if the trip succeeds! Compare to improved grapple which requires improved unarmed strike (a fairly weak feat by itself) and grappling does require making a bit of a sacrifice in mobiliy and area denial and getting assistance from buddies). The free attack from grappling is only unarmed damage, but does not require the feat to get it. As for shatter/sunder? Sure, they work, but in general it's bad form for the DM to use sunder against the PCs. I mean, what if a level 10 character got this really nice +5 weapon, only have one NPC show up and sunder it and everything else he owns? Wealth accumulation is part of the appeal/character advancement of D&D, and encounters even assume a character is decked out with so much wealth for his level. Tripping is a difficult tactic to rely on. It doesn't really scale with level at all, only with size and strength. Picture this: At level 1, a human fighter (which is the only way sans flaws you can get Spiked Chain and Improved Trip) with 18 strength has a +8 bonus to trip someone. At first level, thats brutal, but not unbeatable. Even a plain orc has a +2. So thats only a 77% chance to trip. Meanwhile, a CR 1 wolf would have a +5 bonus to defend against a trip. That's down to a 66% chance. Lets scale up a little. At level 2, your enemies get better trip checks, but you don't. A CR 2 Black Bear has a +8 bonus against trips (yes, bears are quadrupeds), which is suddenly only a 50% chance to be tripped. A heavy warhorse has a +12 to avoid a trip. By level 8, you've gotten your strength to 20, and probably have a steady supply of enlarge person. Lets even be generous and assume a +2 item. So you're finally up to +15 trip. Dire Tigers at CR 8 have a +16 to avoid a trip. Still less than 50%. And this is focusing entirely on trips. You're damage is probably ok, but I don't think you could hold a candle to a focused killer. After you have that +16, I really don't forsee it getting much better. Maybe a +1 every few levels. Meanwhile, enemies just get bigger and stronger. You will always be a force to be reckoned with against melee-classed humanoids, but against other things, you have a 50% chance at best to be effective. And trips aren't even all that great when your enemies have the same reach as you, or if they have tumble (and you haven't gotten thicket of blades yet). Attacking from prone isn't really that bad. -4? Eh, by the end, thats only really 8 less damage per swing. On two other topics mentioned in this thread: 1) You can in fact trip a prone target. Nothing RAW that I've found says you can't (though if you show me a reference I'd be grateful). It is a very common house ruling that you can't, however, because GMs hate seeing their smart players sweeping the legs out of their fallen foes as they try to stand. Well, and vice-versa. 2) The two-handed weapon getting 1.5xStr is a balancing issue. Compare a two-hander vs. two-weapon fighting. Lets say you have an 18 strength. With a greatsword, you'd get one attack for 2d6+6. With two shortswords, you'd have two attacks, one of which does 1d6+4 and the other 1d6+2. Hmm, suspiciously similar to 2d6+6. Power attack gives a 2 to 1 ration on two-handers because if you power attack with 2 one-handers, you ALSO get a 2 to 1 ratio, and have higher base damage (in fact, 2d8 from dual-wielding longswords is 2 average damage more than a greatsword in exchange for that -2 extra to hit beyond short swords). Now, sure, with TWF you get penalties to hit and you need a full round attack to make use of it, but thats somewhat balanced against static damage bonuses like weapon spec, sneak attack, or favored enemy. In the end, people who see chain trippers in action are always taken aback by the power of the chain. However, it really does have weak damage. A greatsword will average 2 more per swing, and that doesn't even count crits. I'd be happy to have this tripper guy in my party, to be honest. He could really make sure the squishies would be safe behind him, at least from melee. With good positioning, later on, nothing could pass a 45' diameter without him hitting them.
BruceLeeroy 01-21-08, 06:14 PM	But, assuming things are being done correctly, what's the problem with an effective character? Low level is where the fighters easily shine over the casters. -James Best point in the thread. After you have that +16, I really don't forsee it getting much better. Maybe a +1 every few levels. Meanwhile, enemies just get bigger and stronger. Heh. There are so many ways of getting a ridiculous trip check. Trust me, +16 is weak. I've built ECL 12 characters with +50 trip checks.
Mylon 01-21-08, 06:31 PM	Perhaps I stated the two-handed issue incorrectly. Bows, despite being two handed weapons, do not let a 18 Str person get +6 to damage. The spiked chain, being a non-ridgid weapon, does not seem to be one that would benefit from having a second hand behind it, much in the same way that a bow does not get the 1.5x bit. As for power attack, a separate issue, sword and shield style goes greatly out of favor at higher levels, especially since you use an animated shield. In line with the 1.5x for strength on a two handed weapon, and 0.5x strength for an offhand weapon, I ruled power attack to give 1.5x and 0.5x respectively, as if each -1 to attack was +2 to strength for the purpose of damage. The important difference here is that the player in question is deriving most of his fun by being effective. Everyone else in the group is just there to have a good time. I'm playing a fighter/wrestler (show up to battle unarmed, possibly take the opponent's weapon from him mid-battle, probably spend a lot of time giving them a "friendly" hug on the ground), we've got a wizard that's using all of the "weird" spells, and we've got a fourth player that will join the group later on when he has some time free up.
mplindustries 01-21-08, 06:40 PM	Heh. There are so many ways of getting a ridiculous trip check. Trust me, +16 is weak. I've built ECL 12 characters with +50 trip checks. ECL 12 would imply to me that he was not human. This started at level 1, so one could only assume the character in question is a human due to needing 3 feats, and thus is medium sized with at best, an 18 strength. I probably didn't make it totally clear that I was talking about trip being weak with those parameters in mind. To the original poster, bows don't get 1.5x strength because they have to be specially constructed to allow a strength bonus to apply at all (I don't really like or agree with that, but it is how it works). Spiked Chains are just melee weapons. Mechanics don't have to make sense, they just have to make balance. If something balanced doesn't seem like it should work how you picture it in game, don't change the balance, change how you perceive it working. Also, your changes to power attack do not change the balance factor at all. Nor is it a terribly uncommon house ruling, as I know a GM who similarly nerfs power attack. For your final point, if this guy derives his fun from being effective, and you clearly don't, you're basic complaint seems to be that your fun is more important than his. I don't really understand how his being good at what he does actually interferes with you wrestling or the mage casting weird spells. Nor do I understand why you can't be both interesting/weird and effective. I'd argue using a spiked chain to trip people is pretty flavorful and weird, it just also happens to be useful. Everyone is there to have fun, so don't try to take his fun away because "he's not playing right" or whatever.
kalstrand 01-21-08, 06:42 PM	Best point in the thread. Heh. There are so many ways of getting a ridiculous trip check. Trust me, +16 is weak. I've built ECL 12 characters with +50 trip checks. I would like to see how you managed that. Edit: Nevermind you said ECL 12. With templates and monstrous races that totally changes things.
BugHunter 01-21-08, 09:09 PM	I've played a spiked chain tripper and after tenth level fighter switched him to a warblade to take advantage of being able to use the weapon focus tree for any other weapon. At lower levels having combat reflexes with the chain is nasty. This makes it a safer ;) place for the party wizard to be since anyone who wants to attack the wizard would either have to avoid the area of control the chain weilder has or face the chance of being tripped. You can get two AoOs against the same target with combat reflexes one for them moving out of the threaten square and the second if they try to stand up in the same round.
JamesMaissen 01-22-08, 12:35 AM	Perhaps I stated the two-handed issue incorrectly. Bows, despite being two handed weapons, do not let a 18 Str person get +6 to damage. Bows are not two handed weapons. They are projectile weapons. -James
kuonji 01-22-08, 02:06 AM	1) You can in fact trip a prone target. Nothing RAW that I've found says you can't (though if you show me a reference I'd be grateful). It is a very common house ruling that you can't, however, because GMs hate seeing their smart players sweeping the legs out of their fallen foes as they try to stand. Well, and vice-versa. From the FAQ (page 68): You also can’t trip a prone creature. And for added clarification: When a character gets up from prone, when does the attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone? When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit. In the other, he can make another trip attack. All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the Player’s Handbook). When you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after he gets up, however.
mplindustries 01-22-08, 03:42 AM	I do appreciate the reference, and its probably enough to convince most people, but I really don't see the FAQ as official. The Sage gives an interpretation of the rules, not the actual rules. In the same question on page 68, he mentions that the information he is giving is not in the rules, because its "common sense." Thats not good enough for me, because my common sense says I can absolutely trip someone who is in the process of getting up. He talks at length in similar questions about how snakes can go prone as a free action and all kinds of stuff like that with no rules justifications. He is giving his houserules, basically, as fact. Still, I do appreciate knowing why so many people think you can't trip prone people in RAW.
Kratch 01-22-08, 08:11 AM	And if you think it's fun now, wait till they learn to cast enlarge person on the guy for another 5' of reach and +5 to the opposed trip roll (+1 strength, +4 size). It's actually an additional 10ft of reach. reach gets doubled (see the graph/short/picture/whatever it is, on page 308 of the DMG). The unbridled munchkinism of the spiked-chain tripper is pretty disgusting...lol... but there are a few tactics your DM may want to consider (aside from simple ranged attacks). As has been mentioned, opponents with multiple legs, or other forms of stability, are pretty easy. As are opponents that simply can't be tripped - such as flying creatures or creatures with no legs at all (ie: worms and such; carrion crawler FTW!). Just wanted to note that flight alone isn't enough to make you immune to trip, as, (according to the FAQ), if you have wings, you can be tripped, this results in a aerial stall. It is defined as "if limbs are required for the current form of movement, then tripping is an option". If he insists on pitting humanoids at you - consider the beauty of an NPC cleric with the shatter spell prepared. I've yet to game with a spiked-chain fighter who had a "backup" chain. It's an exotic weapon... and you just don't see it. Your DM might not rule that the chain is a solid object that can be sundered whole via shatter - but one link in that chain sure can! Easy way to rend his chain - all with nothing but a low-level spell. For a more martial approach - since he's built a munchkin tripper, have the DM build a munchkin sunderer - and slice the chain into little bits and pieces. :D :rofl: in one breath you speak of how much the spiked chain tripper build is "unbridled munchkinism", then follow it up by recommending a tactic that is even more munchkin, a tactic that abuses the fact that all "FIRST" level characters go without backup weapons, as they can rarely afford it. Is using that shatter an option against the party casters spell component pouch? or the clerics holy symbol? how about a silence spell for the casters? I just want to stress again, they are first level. they haven't even been playing for a full level and the OP is complaining. this seems more like a "I wasn't prepared for someone to be effective and I want to punish them for it" if thats really the case, I'd suggest you quit DM now before your casters reach level 5, because if you can't accept a 1st level tripper, your not going to be able to deal with effective casters, and casters are even harder to counter like your trying to do with this tripper, since casters aren't as set, IE predictable, thus aren't as easily metagamed against (and thats exactly what your trying to do here, metagame against the fighter). Do what you feel is required, just remember, if you metagame against this fighter, your ruining the fun of this player by making the build he choose to make (and presumable, was approved by the DM) ineffective, despite the fact the class has no option to change his specialty (IE, if everything he encounters from this point on is immune to trip, then you just took his trip feat away from him without letting him trade it for something else. thats not fair to any class). This will encourage people to avoid playing melee's, which are generally more predictable and thus easily metagamed against. you'll find your group focusing on playing casters, using druids and DMM clerics for the melee types, and then you'll be begging for the simplicity of a spiked chain tripper build, because druids and clerics can ruin your game much much much faster. I'm sorry, what's the problem? If he went with a straight damage build (say extra rage and combat reflexes) instead of tripping the things he'd be straight out killing them. Tripping is a nice tactic, but if he becomes a one trick pony he'll regret it later on naturally. But, assuming things are being done correctly, what's the problem with an effective character? Low level is where the fighters easily shine over the casters. -James I'm amazed it took so long for someone to say this. Casters absolutely dominate in the mid/high levels, and no-one says boo about that, but heaven forbid a melee should be effective. hells no!! For gods sake, it's level 1! if the fighter isn't being effective, the group would be mashed. Happens this character choose to spend his feats on something thats immediately effective (instead of taking power attack at first level and expecting it to offer good returns, like many others do). You may be thinking the spiked chain is too good, but remember, he spent a feat to get the utility the spiked chain offers (it wasn't a free weapon), and it comes with it's limitations (low damage for a THW, abysmal crit range, rarity as treasure)
JamesMaissen 01-22-08, 02:53 PM	Thats not good enough for me, because my common sense says I can absolutely trip someone who is in the process of getting up. AOOs pre-empt the action. You 'trip' the provoker again.. then they can continue their action... in this case to stand up. -James
RobbyPants 01-22-08, 03:26 PM	AOOs pre-empt the action. You 'trip' the provoker again.. then they can continue their action... in this case to stand up. -James Exactly. Unless the text on the specific AoO states otherwise, they always happen before the action that caused them. Standing from prone is no exception.
aikimiller 01-22-08, 04:29 PM	Just a clarification- you CAN trip a flying opponent, it causes them to go into a stall and lose altitude. As far as the other stuff goes, just pray the player doesn't figure out the silliness that happens if throw levels of ninja on top of it. A reach weapon on a character built around attacks of opportunity, with invisability and sudden strike dice... I'm DMing a gestalt game right now, one of my BBEGs is going to be a ninja/fighter with a spiked chain. I'm curious to see how long it takes them to figure out that see invisability will be a handy thing to have.
ToastedAmphibian 01-22-08, 10:22 PM	Ninja // fighter? Ninja 20 // fighter 1 swordsage 19 :} Spiked chain is a shadowhand weapon i belive. Better yet, its also a slashing weapon, so drop some Ninja levels for Dervish.... Then lets see if they can find him!
Kratch 01-23-08, 12:44 AM	Ninja // fighter? Ninja 20 // fighter 1 swordsage 19 :} Spiked chain is a shadowhand weapon i belive. Better yet, its also a slashing weapon, so drop some Ninja levels for Dervish.... Then lets see if they can find him! Spiked chain is a piercing weapon. Additionally, spiked chain is not worth taking exotic WP for unless you intending to get plenty of feats (like improved trip, combat reflex's, stand still, etc) to go with it. To the best of my knowledge, swordsage is also rather feat starved. IMHO, this build is not likely to do well, particularly in any primary melee role (the lost BAB is an additional issue here)
runestar 01-23-08, 06:07 AM	Tripping also has size limitations, so a medium sized tripper cannot trip foes bigger than large, or huge (for those with permanent enlarge person). It is possible to twink out your trip checks to be very effective at lower lvs. The wolf berserker feat (must be barb) from unapproachable east gives +4 to trip checks and lets you take improved trip without meeting the prereqs. Together with the str bonus from rage, a ranseur and enlarge person courtesy of the party wizard, you can get a trip check of +20, 20-ft reach, and touch attacks should be relatively easy to make. :)
BruceLeeroy 01-23-08, 05:15 PM	Don't forget battle jump - if your Dm will allow it, that is - +4 to trip when you drop from 5ft or more onto your target, and double damage on the free attack.
Vharuck 01-23-08, 05:38 PM	While the +4 from Improved Trip does usually prevent this from happening too often, if the tripper loses the opposed Strength vs Strength or Dex check, the defender can try to trip you back. I have a game where one of the players is exploiting (in a good way) the spiked chain, and this happened to her. She had the choice of dropping her spiked chain (which would leave her unarmed until she picked it back up, incurring an attack of opportunity) or falling prone (which left her still armed but prone, meaning she'd provoke an attack of opportunity trying to stand up or crawl away). She chose to keep the chain and hit the dirt, but really neither was a good option. And, aside from basic humanoids, a lot of opponents have decent Strength scores.
ToastedAmphibian 01-23-08, 06:00 PM	Spiked chain is a piercing weapon Hmm, i thought it was slashing/piercing, but it looks like i was mistaken.
Kratch 01-23-08, 11:21 PM	Tripping also has size limitations, so a medium sized tripper cannot trip foes bigger than large, or huge (for those with permanent enlarge person). True. Do things like powerful build and jotunbrand (sp?(not sure what book)) help to address the size limitation? I think it does.
BruceLeeroy 01-24-08, 02:22 AM	Jotunbrud. Player's Guide to Faerun, if I recall correctly. Powerful Build and Jotunbrud won't stack, unfortunately, but getting big is one of the best goals for a tripper. Enlarge Person, Expansion and Giant Size are all great ways to do this. And they stack with either Jotunbrud and Powerful Build.
Kratch 01-24-08, 09:23 AM	Jotunbrud. Player's Guide to Faerun, if I recall correctly. Powerful Build and Jotunbrud won't stack, unfortunately, but getting big is one of the best goals for a tripper. Enlarge Person, Expansion and Giant Size are all great ways to do this. And they stack with either Jotunbrud and Powerful Build. So that means, someone with Jotunbrud (or powerful build) and an enlarge item (readily available in most magic shops, and highly desired for those tough fights), can topple all but colossal critters, which means they can theoretically effect all but about 5% (if that, I think Bob worked out that over 2/3rds of the MM was made up of medium or large sized critters, leaving only a thirds for small and smaller, and huge and bigger) of the critters in the MM. I'd be willing to bet there are more critters in the MM immune to enchantments then there are colossal critters, yet enchantment is never said to be useless like so many others say tripping is past early levels. now, people will follow up by saying casters can change their spells, or have alternatives prepared. well, yes, and fighters are only using 2 feats for the tripping tactic, they still have a whole slew of other feats to make use of against those fairly rare untrippable foes. Generally those feats are chosen to enhance or make better use of tripping, or are better used against tripped foes, but those feats are not useless without tripping
BruceLeeroy 01-24-08, 03:55 PM	There's nothing useless about having 30' reach and making touch attacks to give yourself a +4 to attack and cause your enemy to suffer a -4 to attack. Combined with standstill, knockdown and a few other feats (disarm or sunder spring to mind) and the right weapon, and you're ultimate battlefield control. Sure, a caster of equivalent level is still going to hand you your ass if you don't get lucky... but that's just casters in general. As far as melee goes, the tripmaster is effective well into epic.
kalstrand 01-24-08, 06:40 PM	Jotunbrud doesn't stack because it treats you as large. So if you get an Enlarge Person your Jotunbrud feat becomes irrelevant.