Spot checks and skill tricks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spot checks and skill tricks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Netjack
01-10-08, 07:48 PM So anyone who have seen my last few posting can tell, the DM I play with loves to nerf things that do not particularly make sense to nerf.

Next up, a skill trick
Back on Your Feet and nimble stand, both skill tricks that do not provoke an attack of opportunity when standing back up. One is an immediate action, the other uses the same rules of standing back up, except that when doing it like this there is no AOP.

One of the players in the campaign I play, did this skill trick, and he was AOP, when asked, the DM said the NPC had a feat to allow him to do this. Obviously we cant ask the DM the NPCs skills and feats.

Knowing his track record now, is there a feat to AOP on a skill trick that prevents AOP? I do not think so, but I could be wrong....

Is there a feat?

Now for something that not really game mechanics, just annoying.

Spot check against the hidden. Apparently our group was being followed, and it cost us dearly, however, we all though this was a story line event, meaning we could not really prevent it. Later the DM said, I CAN BELIEVE YOU GUYS DIDN'T MAKE SPOT CHECKS. So now out of spite I will do one ever 5 minutes for now on.

The point is, the only person that can "see" the world is the DM, to not be annoying, we usually don't make random spot checks, we where in a wide open area, no one was actually around us and, in all actuality, if someone other then your allies is following you, unless he had hide in plain site, which he didn't. You would notice. Second, we never rolled a spot check. It just happened. I was on the understanding, if an stealthy creature creeps near you, everyone gets a spot and listen to see if it is there. Since obliviously no one but the DM can "see" it.

I thought *** was automatic since I wouldn't know since I literally can't know unless I could read his mind.

Does that mean I could go around invisible, and no one could attempt to see me unless they said to them selfs "IM GOING TO MAKE A SPOT AND LISTEN CHECK FOR INVISIBLE PEOPLE!!!".

and now to ask a question about never having a thieves kit and not being allowed to substitute.
Dashmin Fleetfoot
01-10-08, 08:13 PM It would certainly seem reasonable to me to say that if your DM thought that your party should/might have a chance at spotting the person who was trailing you, that he (your DM) should have giving you some indication, beit a spot check or some other hint that some mysterious person was trailing you. And judging by his reaction, it sounds as if you were in fact supposed to realize this. How this would have been possible aside from making random spot checks the entire time, I do not know.

Oh, and to answer your question about Thieves Tools. I believe you can use improvised tools, but with a penalty to your skill check. Much like using improvised weapons. I would have to dig out my books to verify, but I am pretty sure.
Tedronai
01-10-08, 08:49 PM Spot checks against hidden opponents, hidden objects, or disguised opponents or objects are all REACTIVE. If something is there to be seen, all individuals with line of sight to it get a spot check. THIS IS NOT OPTIONAL. The DM is perfectly within their rights to roll these checks for you secretly, notifying you only if you succeed, but they MUST be rolled. Anything else is cheating.

Active spot checks are a supplement to these reactive checks, and represent devoting your full attention (and thus your actions) to the task of observing your surroundings.

Listen checks are treated the same.

The mysterious feat is something of a more delicate subject, however, but there is one solution I can think of.
Suggest to your DM that you might be interested in acquiring that feat for your character, and would like to know the prerequisites and specific benefits (since I sincerely doubt that he could refer you to a page number in any book).
The point being that, if he has created this feat and applied it to the NPC legitimately, then there is nothing to complain about (although such a specific feat in itself is suspicious when it counters EXACTLY the tactics of the PCs). If it was added 'on the fly' simply because he felt the need to get in one additional attack, then something is wrong with his DMing style.
And, if you're REALLY lucky, you might even get a somewhat worthwhile feat as an option for future character development in that DM's campaign.
Netjack
01-10-08, 10:04 PM So beside thefeat being something of his own creation, is there one that even exist though? Personally I think he did it just so he could hit him....
Tedronai
01-10-08, 10:34 PM I am aware of no feat even approaching the one supposedly used by that NPC, but that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't actually make one. It might not be likely, but it's not impossible.
Netjack
01-10-08, 10:35 PM All four of us didn't notice him apparently,

wait he did give us a small..... crappy hint.....

"There are five people on the platform", since he said "people" we assumed he wasn't talking about us but apparently the fact that he said 5 instead of 4 means we were supposed to notice there was an extra person

...and that we were on the platform

side note to the skill tricks, the other player apparently had more back story.

<Player A> - "Usually after sessions i take my own char sheet with me, but the session just before that skill trick thing, he asked to keep my sheet, then mysteriously next session that happens. He only asked for may character sheet."
groveborn
01-10-08, 10:46 PM Your DM is trying to have fun at the expense of his players. Don't tolerate it. Suggest that he play by the rules, or that you won't play with him. The point of the game isn't Player vs. DM, but for the DM to provide a world to play in. Providing a challenge is fun, taking away all power of the player is not.

No DM is god. They are merely the story teller. It's their story, true, but the game belongs to everyone playing.
1 ton ghost
01-11-08, 11:30 AM -don't konw a feat that allows rise from prone w/out AoO. super high Tumble check (like 35 i think, CompAdv), but yeah, normally you need the Skill Trick
-was this target Shadowing you (CompAdv)? that is, you throw in a Hide vs. Spot every 10 min or so provided they're around 60ft of the tail. even when spotted, there's a Sense Motive vs. Bluff to "look inoccuous" and so on, but this is generally urban fare, for crowds and the like.
if he was invisible, or hiding, the enemy should probably be at 1/2 moves so as not to accrue the -5 to Move Silently while he worked up on you. even so, you SHOULD be allowed a reactive Spot periodically to note an invisible assailant and the like. you were right, even if not actively looking, if he's in tactical range, you get some chance no matter how slim.
there's tracks and things too. what type of terrain did you pass through? his stealth skills, etc?
given his botching of the Sense roll vs. Stealth, you should probably analyze the whole scenario out of game. too many campaigns were derailed by one bad ruling or misinterpretation of 1 rule...

sounds like your DM is taking liberties. salting the wound, "oh, you guys should'a done this..." or "i can't believe..." isn't helping and serves to make an ass out of him. no one likes a gloater, but he shouldn't have been gloating as you don't have to actively make Spots. you throw the PCs a bone once in a while...and don't ask them if it tastes good either. just keep moving.
Gareshra
01-12-08, 03:43 AM No DM is god. They are merely the story teller. It's their story, true, but the game belongs to everyone playing.

This is the most true thing on these forums. People in my group often say "You're the DM, you're god. Do what you want" And I correct them saying I'm not God. I'm just the narrator. The misconception leads to many a DM playing wrong. The only time the DM should break the rules is when it is in the interest of making the game more fun or interesting for the players. I don't generally advocate skewing does or making on the fly rule changes, but every now and then the players will do everything right and get screwed over by bad luck. IN that case, the DM can cheat a little bit. Anything else is the DM just abusing power and being dumb.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Netjack 01-10-08, 07:48 PM	So anyone who have seen my last few posting can tell, the DM I play with loves to nerf things that do not particularly make sense to nerf. Next up, a skill trick Back on Your Feet and nimble stand, both skill tricks that do not provoke an attack of opportunity when standing back up. One is an immediate action, the other uses the same rules of standing back up, except that when doing it like this there is no AOP. One of the players in the campaign I play, did this skill trick, and he was AOP, when asked, the DM said the NPC had a feat to allow him to do this. Obviously we cant ask the DM the NPCs skills and feats. Knowing his track record now, is there a feat to AOP on a skill trick that prevents AOP? I do not think so, but I could be wrong.... Is there a feat? Now for something that not really game mechanics, just annoying. Spot check against the hidden. Apparently our group was being followed, and it cost us dearly, however, we all though this was a story line event, meaning we could not really prevent it. Later the DM said, I CAN BELIEVE YOU GUYS DIDN'T MAKE SPOT CHECKS. So now out of spite I will do one ever 5 minutes for now on. The point is, the only person that can "see" the world is the DM, to not be annoying, we usually don't make random spot checks, we where in a wide open area, no one was actually around us and, in all actuality, if someone other then your allies is following you, unless he had hide in plain site, which he didn't. You would notice. Second, we never rolled a spot check. It just happened. I was on the understanding, if an stealthy creature creeps near you, everyone gets a spot and listen to see if it is there. Since obliviously no one but the DM can "see" it. I thought *** was automatic since I wouldn't know since I literally can't know unless I could read his mind. Does that mean I could go around invisible, and no one could attempt to see me unless they said to them selfs "IM GOING TO MAKE A SPOT AND LISTEN CHECK FOR INVISIBLE PEOPLE!!!". and now to ask a question about never having a thieves kit and not being allowed to substitute.
Dashmin Fleetfoot 01-10-08, 08:13 PM	It would certainly seem reasonable to me to say that if your DM thought that your party should/might have a chance at spotting the person who was trailing you, that he (your DM) should have giving you some indication, beit a spot check or some other hint that some mysterious person was trailing you. And judging by his reaction, it sounds as if you were in fact supposed to realize this. How this would have been possible aside from making random spot checks the entire time, I do not know. Oh, and to answer your question about Thieves Tools. I believe you can use improvised tools, but with a penalty to your skill check. Much like using improvised weapons. I would have to dig out my books to verify, but I am pretty sure.
Tedronai 01-10-08, 08:49 PM	Spot checks against hidden opponents, hidden objects, or disguised opponents or objects are all REACTIVE. If something is there to be seen, all individuals with line of sight to it get a spot check. THIS IS NOT OPTIONAL. The DM is perfectly within their rights to roll these checks for you secretly, notifying you only if you succeed, but they MUST be rolled. Anything else is cheating. Active spot checks are a supplement to these reactive checks, and represent devoting your full attention (and thus your actions) to the task of observing your surroundings. Listen checks are treated the same. The mysterious feat is something of a more delicate subject, however, but there is one solution I can think of. Suggest to your DM that you might be interested in acquiring that feat for your character, and would like to know the prerequisites and specific benefits (since I sincerely doubt that he could refer you to a page number in any book). The point being that, if he has created this feat and applied it to the NPC legitimately, then there is nothing to complain about (although such a specific feat in itself is suspicious when it counters EXACTLY the tactics of the PCs). If it was added 'on the fly' simply because he felt the need to get in one additional attack, then something is wrong with his DMing style. And, if you're REALLY lucky, you might even get a somewhat worthwhile feat as an option for future character development in that DM's campaign.
Netjack 01-10-08, 10:04 PM	So beside thefeat being something of his own creation, is there one that even exist though? Personally I think he did it just so he could hit him....
Tedronai 01-10-08, 10:34 PM	I am aware of no feat even approaching the one supposedly used by that NPC, but that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't actually make one. It might not be likely, but it's not impossible.
Netjack 01-10-08, 10:35 PM	All four of us didn't notice him apparently, wait he did give us a small..... crappy hint..... "There are five people on the platform", since he said "people" we assumed he wasn't talking about us but apparently the fact that he said 5 instead of 4 means we were supposed to notice there was an extra person ...and that we were on the platform side note to the skill tricks, the other player apparently had more back story. <Player A> - "Usually after sessions i take my own char sheet with me, but the session just before that skill trick thing, he asked to keep my sheet, then mysteriously next session that happens. He only asked for may character sheet."
groveborn 01-10-08, 10:46 PM	Your DM is trying to have fun at the expense of his players. Don't tolerate it. Suggest that he play by the rules, or that you won't play with him. The point of the game isn't Player vs. DM, but for the DM to provide a world to play in. Providing a challenge is fun, taking away all power of the player is not. No DM is god. They are merely the story teller. It's their story, true, but the game belongs to everyone playing.
1 ton ghost 01-11-08, 11:30 AM	-don't konw a feat that allows rise from prone w/out AoO. super high Tumble check (like 35 i think, CompAdv), but yeah, normally you need the Skill Trick -was this target Shadowing you (CompAdv)? that is, you throw in a Hide vs. Spot every 10 min or so provided they're around 60ft of the tail. even when spotted, there's a Sense Motive vs. Bluff to "look inoccuous" and so on, but this is generally urban fare, for crowds and the like. if he was invisible, or hiding, the enemy should probably be at 1/2 moves so as not to accrue the -5 to Move Silently while he worked up on you. even so, you SHOULD be allowed a reactive Spot periodically to note an invisible assailant and the like. you were right, even if not actively looking, if he's in tactical range, you get some chance no matter how slim. there's tracks and things too. what type of terrain did you pass through? his stealth skills, etc? given his botching of the Sense roll vs. Stealth, you should probably analyze the whole scenario out of game. too many campaigns were derailed by one bad ruling or misinterpretation of 1 rule... sounds like your DM is taking liberties. salting the wound, "oh, you guys should'a done this..." or "i can't believe..." isn't helping and serves to make an ass out of him. no one likes a gloater, but he shouldn't have been gloating as you don't have to actively make Spots. you throw the PCs a bone once in a while...and don't ask them if it tastes good either. just keep moving.
Gareshra 01-12-08, 03:43 AM	No DM is god. They are merely the story teller. It's their story, true, but the game belongs to everyone playing. This is the most true thing on these forums. People in my group often say "You're the DM, you're god. Do what you want" And I correct them saying I'm not God. I'm just the narrator. The misconception leads to many a DM playing wrong. The only time the DM should break the rules is when it is in the interest of making the game more fun or interesting for the players. I don't generally advocate skewing does or making on the fly rule changes, but every now and then the players will do everything right and get screwed over by bad luck. IN that case, the DM can cheat a little bit. Anything else is the DM just abusing power and being dumb.