Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sinister DM 02-07-08, 02:00 AM	In our Dragonlance campaign, we recently had 2 encounters with dragons. In both cases, we were on even ground and the dragons came flying. In both cases we didn't see the dragons before they saw us. We have a ranger with maxed out spot and favored enemy dragon (+6), so we should have a pretty high chance to see the dragons, but out DM ruled that they user Hide to ambush us (from the air)??? How do you handle spotting a flying creature? I would imagine, that you roll a spot check and the result determines the distance at which you spot you enemy, modified by the size of the enemy (in this case, since the enemy was flying, I assume that there was nothing to Hide behind). How would you handle this situation. Is it at all possible to ambush someone while flying? If a dragon flies at 300', it should be possible for it to attack you before you had a chance to turn your head in that particular direction it was approaching you from? Peter/tired of being ambushed by flying dragons in random encounters....
Howie23 02-07-08, 03:18 AM	How do you handle spotting a flying creature? I would imagine, that you roll a spot check and the result determines the distance at which you spot you enemy, modified by the size of the enemy (in this case, since the enemy was flying, I assume that there was nothing to Hide behind). See, the problem is that there is no fixed DC to see something. What comes into play are the terrain (the DMG has info on spotting things based upon terrain) and concealment. You have to have either concealment or cover to Hide. Distance and size modify the check/DC, but what's the base DC? I regularly use Sensory skills (sometimes even Survival or Sense Motive) and terrain to initiate combat. The parenthetical statements aren't to everyone's taste, but can make sense at times ("The birds grow quiet...." "Out of the crowd, with murderous intent....") A cloudy day might give a dragon surprise on a Hide using the concealment of the clouds vs a Spot modified by distance. Otherwise, the DM is pulling a DC for the Spot out of his....um...dice bag. Time to start considering if said DM does this regularly. If so, he either needs some pointers on setting up encounter conditions or he's out to bully the players. :) Assume the best, but check for the worst. :) David
Dheran 02-07-08, 08:48 AM	See, the problem is that there is no fixed DC to see something. That's not true at all. The rules information you need is merely scattered around in several places.Table: Difficulty Class Examples Difficulty (DC) Very easy (0): Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)Spot Check Penalties Per 10 feet of distance: -1 Penalty Also see Table: Creature Size and Scale which shows that the Spot DC varies by +/4 for each size increment. Sinister DM is correct about how this calculation works. The total Spot roll needed to see a flying dragon at 300' is (assuming size Large) 30. A Ranger with a +6 favored enemy bonus and maximum Spot ranks has to have at least 19 + WIS modifier for their Spot checks versus dragons, so there's a decent chance of success if the DM plays by the rules. It's extremely unlikely that you'll have cloud cover within 300' of the ground, and dragons don't have Hide in Plain Sight so they can't use Hide to ambush you from the air. You should tell your DM to straighten up and fly right.
Howie23 02-07-08, 11:36 AM	That's not true at all. The rules information you need is merely scattered around in several places. Also see Table: Creature Size and Scale which shows that the Spot DC varies by +/4 for each size increment. I'll cop to having discounted the example DC, mainly because it is in a reference table and doesn't tie to the skill mentioned. Thanks for the references. With all deference to the accuracy of your references, applying the Large = DC0 as a baseline for spotting creatures that are unhidden does result in some results that are atypical in comparison to expected results. :) Some amusing examples to using the Large=DC0 as a baseline for things that are unhidden other than by distance: 1) A 1st level human warrior can fire a composite longbow 1650 feet with Far Shot. The DC for a colossal creature is -12. Modified for distance, he cannot reliably see it beyond 220 feet, and it is essentially invisible at 321 feet (Spot of +0). 2) Stormwrack provides a chart on seeing things based upon elevation changes, up to 100 miles away. What's the point? 3) Stage performances become quite interesting. "Nice seats, eh, buddy?" "Nah, I can't see a thing...empty stage." "What, you can't see horse on stage?" "Nah...I should have gotten tickets down closer." "Yeah. I wish I were about 40 feet closer; I heard that the rider has really long hair but not much else...nice play, Lady Godiva." 4) DM: "As mentioned, I'm using a stricter version of the spotting rules from now on. Let's start." DM: "Having returned to town from the Caves of Yosh-Fral, you enter a large, well lit tavern with a wide variety of patrons. <rolls dice> 20 feet away, you see a group of fellow adventurers seated in a circle. As you approach, a table appears in the midst of them. A voice beside you asks if you'd like to order. You see no one there. You notice that one of the adventurers is Smelton, who've you've met before. Player: "What's this figure you've placed next to me, a halfling?" DM: "Yes. She's a halfling waitress, commoner 1. Small. Really tough to see. You might want to invest some ranks in Spot." Player: "Hmm. 'Smelton, it is good to see you, my fine man. How does one get a drink around here?'" DM: "Smelton looks around <dice> and then again <dice>. 'Ah, Dorbet. I didn't notice you. Um...there was a halfling taking orders a moment ago...I seem to have lost her. You might ask the dragon tending bar." Player: "There's a dragon tending bar? You'd think I would have noticed that. Hmm. Is he a wyrmling or something?" DM: "No, he's large. He's just far away...big tavern." Player: "I see. Any chance we could play frisbee now?" 5) Let's just face it, there's a reason why no one plays golf in DnD. 6) I now understand why ammunition is only recoverable 50% of the time. Hard to find. :) Thanks again for the references. David
Amaril 02-07-08, 11:41 AM	Or the dragon was invisible, which grants a huge bonus to hide.
Sinister DM 02-08-08, 02:34 AM	Or the dragon was invisible, which grants a huge bonus to hide. Strange that all dragons fly around casting invisibility and they do it just before they notice us (or we notice them) (duration 1 min/lvl) :confused:
Finarin Panjoro 02-08-08, 02:41 PM	Sounds like your DM goofed. There are ways it could happen but he doesn't seem to have discribed any of them. The dragon could be doing nap of the earth flying (just above tree tops, down into valleys, between hills, etc) in which case I would set the encounter distance using the appropriate terrain type. He's effectively using the terrain to hide. Because he's not actually on the ground I'd give the PCs a +2 circumstance bonus on their spot checks. He could be so high that he has concealment from the clouds, but then he's also going to have a longer run on his first attack. This sets the encounter distance at whatever height cloud cover begins. He could be hunting at night in which case he'd be extremely difficult to spot, but his own vision would also be impaired. Dragons do have low-light vision so they can see as well in moonlight as a normal person sees in daylight. This would be the best time for concealed aerial hunting. Spell use could also allow this, but that requires some pretty phenomenal timing on the dragon's part. In broad daylight in relatively clear skies and at altitude I'd say you would automatically spot a dragon within about 1 mile per size category (1 mile medium, 2 miles large, 3 huge, 4 garg, 5 colossal). That's just a guess on my part, but it seems about fair.
Sorlen 02-09-08, 01:22 AM	There is one thing to keep in mind about that dragon attack: If they attack from the air as a charge with a flight speed of 300, they start their attack at 600 feet away. (More if they have increased their speed as part of a dive.) This is actually a -60 penalty (or more) to the spot check before size modifier. It is fairly easy to fail any check with a -60 modifier. Of course, one then has to wonder how the dragon saw the party...
JamesMaissen 02-09-08, 09:20 AM	How would you handle this situation. Is it at all possible to ambush someone while flying? If a dragon flies at 300', it should be possible for it to attack you before you had a chance to turn your head in that particular direction it was approaching you from? First of all, it's always good to have trust in the DM. Sometimes having discussions with them about rules is a good idea. It reinforces that trust. Then when something odd occurs, perhaps you say something as a nice reminder. When the judge nods and says 'trust me' then you do as there could be other factors in play here. As to the case itself.. as others have said there is a difference between spot checks vs hiding and maximum range of vision. The two should not be confused. If we are talking about the former then the flying creature would need cover or concealment in order to hide. If we are talking about the later then it should be a hard cap for both parties. One way that is likely (assuming the party is traveling on an open plain) would be for the Dragon to be flying in the clouds using them for concealment. The dragon, just inside the concealment granting cloud, would look out and see the party. The party does not have concealment vs the dragon so they are not hidden from him. (The dragon picks a corner of his 'square' that's on the edge of the cloud and thus the line between it and the party has nothing giving concealment). The dragon then quaffs a potion of invisibility (or casts it directly) and closes the distance to the party. He likely also buffs himself prior to this as time isn't an issue. Otherwise the dragon 'runs' and as he's lowering elevation does so at double fly speed. The party notices something way up from the clouds becoming very large in their vision very quickly. A dragon that flies at 100ft could get 400ft lower in the 'surprise' round. If the cloud the dragon was flying in was as low as 200ft (plus dragon reach & party height) then it could also 'partial' charge one poor victim (or horse) in the surprise round (possibly then cleaving into another). But if the dragon is in the habit of doing things like this, rumors of it's 'reign of terror' are likely to abound. -James