Spring attack across difficult terrain? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spring attack across difficult terrain? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Prom
06-24-07, 01:38 AM Hi All,

Just recently I used a spring attack across difficult terrain to attack a hobgoblin. There was nothing listed in the FAQ or the PHB on this. The DM ruled that my character would have to make a balance check to see if he fell prone, which he did.

Does difficult terrain that slows movement by half require a balance check when using a spring attack?

Details:
Fighter moved 5ft into range to attack Hobgoblin (this used up 10ft as it was a plie of bones). Did not get to attack Hobgoblin, had to make balance check and failed. Fighter fell over prone. Fighter could move 20ft in a single move action by the way. So he would have been able to meet the requirements of a spring attack if he had not had to make a balance check.

Prom
Polaris
06-24-07, 01:47 AM Prom,

There is no ipso-facto requirement for a balance check when you spring-attack across difficult terrain. However if you look at the Balance skill on page 67 of the PHB (3.5), you will find various DCs for moving across surfaces that are considered difficult. If you make the check, you move at half-speed. If you fail by four or less, you can't move (for that round). If you fail by more than five, you fall down.

A pile of bones certain seems like Narrow Surface 7-10 inches wide that is either lightly or severly obstructed, i.e. DC 12-15 range for balance.

In short, it's a DM call, but what happened doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

-Polaris
Prom
06-24-07, 02:15 AM Hi Polaris,

Thanks for the response, just read the accelerated movement section of the balance skill on page 67. Spring attack is not strictly moving any faster than normal speed, but with the dodging back-out of combat without getting hit with an attack of opportunity, it does make sense. The only thing I was thinking is that the balance check should take place after the attack as the character springs back-out of combat. Any thoughts.

I noticed the piece on being attacked while balancing. In the situation I have described the Hobgoblin was standing on the difficult terrain of giant bones. Would it follow that the Hobgoblin would have to make a balance check while standing on the bones and being attacked. Unless it has 5 ranks in Balance that is. Infact anyone standing on the difficult terrain of bones will have to make a balance check while being attacked.

Prom
jaelis
06-24-07, 02:58 AM Spring attacking doesn't make movement any harder or easier. If the DM said you needed a balance check, then your opponent should have needed to make one too.
Polaris
06-24-07, 03:33 AM Spring attacking doesn't make movement any harder or easier. If the DM said you needed a balance check, then your opponent should have needed to make one too.

Not in this case. In this case, the Hobgoblin never actually got attacked. You only have to make the balance check if you move or are being attacked. This the hobgoblin had a situational tactical advantage by standing still (which is pretty easy to understand and visualize).

Thanks for the response, just read the accelerated movement section of the balance skill on page 67. Spring attack is not strictly moving any faster than normal speed, but with the dodging back-out of combat without getting hit with an attack of opportunity, it does make sense. The only thing I was thinking is that the balance check should take place after the attack as the character springs back-out of combat. Any thoughts.

Actually that depends. If the DM ruled that this was a 'narrow' or 'treacherous' surface where any movement (or attack) required a balance check (a ruling that seems at least sensible to me given what you've described), then no. You moved on the treachous surface requiring the roll. The movement first occured before the attack. Had you made your roll and attacked the hobgoblin, then the hobgoblin would have had to make a balance check himself. Also (although this obviously never came up), unless the hobgoblin had 5 or more ranks of balance, he'd lose his Dexterity bonus to AC (and everything that implies).

I noticed the piece on being attacked while balancing. In the situation I have described the Hobgoblin was standing on the difficult terrain of giant bones. Would it follow that the Hobgoblin would have to make a balance check while standing on the bones and being attacked. Unless it has 5 ranks in Balance that is. Infact anyone standing on the difficult terrain of bones will have to make a balance check while being attacked.

Yes had the hobgoblin in fact been attacked. You didn't make your balance check and since your first movement preceded any attack you could have made, the hobgoblin wasn't in fact attacked and thus no balance check would be required.

-Polaris
jaelis
06-24-07, 03:41 AM Not in this case. In this case, the Hobgoblin never actually got attacked. You only have to make the balance check if you move or are being attacked. This the hobgoblin had a situational tactical advantage by standing still (which is pretty easy to understand and visualize).

Beg pardon, I meant that if the hobgoblin moved, he should have to make a balance check. That if the terrain requires balance checks for movement, everyone needs to make them, spring attacking or not. (Or as you say, if the hobgoblin was actually balancing, he'd need a check if attacked. But you could have terrain that requires balance checks for movement, but not that you actually need to balance on. We'd just have to know what the DM had in mind.)
pukunui
06-24-07, 04:43 AM I'm the DM in question. This was a "not covered by the rules so I'll make something up on the fly" situation. Basically, there was a 10ft wide gap in a castle wall that was full of rubble and a Huge forest giant skeleton. This was classed as difficult terrain but required no balance check to simply move through (thus the hobgoblin made no check). He was not necessarily standing on the skeleton.

However, I felt that springing into an area full of rubble and bones would require a balance check in order to land safely and in such a way that you could then attack and spring away again. Even if that's too literal a reading of the feat and the PC is not so much leaping as just rushing forward, it still implies faster than normal movement. Requiring a balance check for it made sense to me at the time and the player failed the check by more than 5, so his PC fell flat on his face.

If the consensus is that I made the wrong call, I'm happy to accept it. However, since it didn't result in anything more than embarrassment for the player and his PC, I'm not going to worry about it much.

Cheers,
Jonny
Nom
06-24-07, 10:29 AM By the rules, you made a wrong call. Spring attack doesn't require you to move faster than "hustle", and the only special restriction is "not wearing heavy armour". If a character would not suffer an effect if they performed a move-attack or attack-move, then they should not suffer it due to Spring Attack.
Polaris
06-24-07, 12:16 PM By the rules, you made a wrong call. Spring attack doesn't require you to move faster than "hustle", and the only special restriction is "not wearing heavy armour". If a character would not suffer an effect if they performed a move-attack or attack-move, then they should not suffer it due to Spring Attack.

Actually to nitpick a pit, the only special restriction is "not having your speed reduced due to encumberance or armor". Dwarves can tumble at any encumberance and in any armor for this reason.

I'm the DM in question. This was a "not covered by the rules so I'll make something up on the fly" situation. Basically, there was a 10ft wide gap in a castle wall that was full of rubble and a Huge forest giant skeleton. This was classed as difficult terrain but required no balance check to simply move through (thus the hobgoblin made no check). He was not necessarily standing on the skeleton.

Ah so. In that case you did in fact make the wrong call given that spring attack doesn't require any more strenous movement than simple hustling. If the hobgoblin didn't have to make a balance check while moving then the spring attacking PC didn't either RAW. However, as you said it's a minor point to be aware of in the future and as I said before, you on-spot ruling seemed reasonable at first blush (even if it was technically wrong in the end). That's good enough for me.

-Polaris
pukunui
06-24-07, 04:06 PM Thanks guys. From now on, I won't require a balance check to spring attack through difficult terrain, which, I'm sure, will make my player very happy. :)

You can't always make the right call in the heat of the moment, especially when it's not covered explicitly in the rules (and it also happens to be about 12:30am and you can't really think straight anyway).

I suppose I could always just say that the hobgoblin did make a balance check (and succeeded) but of course that would be cheating ... :angelhide

Cheers,
Jonny
Prom
06-24-07, 04:16 PM Hi All,

So difficult terrain that slows movement but does not require a balance check to move through it or balance while attacking, should not require a balance check for a spring attack.

If a balance check is required to move through the terrain or balance while attacking, then a balance check would be required for a spring attack.

That makes sense to me, and it is better to clear it up now. As I have the feat spring attack and more than likely will come across this problem again.

Posted by Pukunui,
However, since it didn't result in anything more than embarrassment for the player.

I was more frustrated by the call then embarrised, Pukunui. I watched Hobgoblin's move across the terrain and attack with no balance check being required. It was also very late at night and no ones brain was working well, including my own.

Thanks for the advice: Polaris, Nom and jaelis.

Prom
pukunui
06-24-07, 04:18 PM I was more frustrated by the call then embarrised, Pukunui. I watched Hobgoblin's move across the terrain and attack with no balance check being required. It was also very late at night and no ones brain was working well, including my own.
Except that even if I had made the hobgoblins roll balance checks, you never would have known unless they had failed. :teach: Just thought I'd point that out.

EDIT: The thing is, the module itself is silent on the terrain effects for the encounter. I just assumed that a Huge forest giant skeleton, combined with a whole lot of rubble, would have some effect on movement. For all I know, I should have required everyone to climb through/over the skeleton. In the heat of the moment, I decided it would count as difficult terrain.
Nom
06-24-07, 08:51 PM Actually to nitpick a pit, the only special restriction is "not having your speed reduced due to encumberance or armor".Yeah, that's what I thought Spring Attack said too. So I checked it up, and PH pg 100 quite clearly says "heavy armour."
Dwarves can tumble at any encumberance and in any armor for this reason.The restrictions on Spring Attack are different to (and except in the special case of Dwarves, less onerous than) those on Tumble.

Spring Attack: not heavy armour
Tumble: no speed reduction due to armour or load

Prom and Pukunai: yeah, the terrain rules aren't always easy to find. Difficult terrain is relatively easy: it slows you down. Stuff that's not open floors, roads, or "clear" terrain is difficult. As DM, I often avoid declaring difficult terrain even when it strictly should be since it neuters 5 ft. steps and restricts mobility, making for much more boring combats.

Terrain gets tricky when you start dealing with heavy undergrowth, water, or slippery or narrow surfaces since a whole new set of rules come into play.
Polaris
06-24-07, 09:13 PM Yeah, that's what I thought Spring Attack said too. So I checked it up, and PH pg 100 quite clearly says "heavy armour."
The restrictions on Spring Attack are different to (and except in the special case of Dwarves, less onerous than) those on Tumble.

You're right. I was thinking about Tumble. Sorry about that. It's worth noting that Mithril Full Plate is considered medium armor and thus you can spring-attack in it.

-Polaris
pukunui
06-24-07, 09:33 PM Prom and Pukunai: yeah, the terrain rules aren't always easy to find. Difficult terrain is relatively easy: it slows you down. Stuff that's not open floors, roads, or "clear" terrain is difficult. As DM, I often avoid declaring difficult terrain even when it strictly should be since it neuters 5 ft. steps and restricts mobility, making for much more boring combats.

Terrain gets tricky when you start dealing with heavy undergrowth, water, or slippery or narrow surfaces since a whole new set of rules come into play.Yes. I probably should have read up on terrain rules before the session started but to be honest it just never occurred to me until I saw what the players were planning and that it involved fighting in the relatively narrow gap in a 15ft high wall that was full of rubble and a Huge forest giant skeleton. I probably should have made it more than just difficult terrain but it's a bit too late for that now ...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prom 06-24-07, 01:38 AM	Hi All, Just recently I used a spring attack across difficult terrain to attack a hobgoblin. There was nothing listed in the FAQ or the PHB on this. The DM ruled that my character would have to make a balance check to see if he fell prone, which he did. Does difficult terrain that slows movement by half require a balance check when using a spring attack? Details: Fighter moved 5ft into range to attack Hobgoblin (this used up 10ft as it was a plie of bones). Did not get to attack Hobgoblin, had to make balance check and failed. Fighter fell over prone. Fighter could move 20ft in a single move action by the way. So he would have been able to meet the requirements of a spring attack if he had not had to make a balance check. Prom
Polaris 06-24-07, 01:47 AM	Prom, There is no ipso-facto requirement for a balance check when you spring-attack across difficult terrain. However if you look at the Balance skill on page 67 of the PHB (3.5), you will find various DCs for moving across surfaces that are considered difficult. If you make the check, you move at half-speed. If you fail by four or less, you can't move (for that round). If you fail by more than five, you fall down. A pile of bones certain seems like Narrow Surface 7-10 inches wide that is either lightly or severly obstructed, i.e. DC 12-15 range for balance. In short, it's a DM call, but what happened doesn't seem unreasonable to me. -Polaris
Prom 06-24-07, 02:15 AM	Hi Polaris, Thanks for the response, just read the accelerated movement section of the balance skill on page 67. Spring attack is not strictly moving any faster than normal speed, but with the dodging back-out of combat without getting hit with an attack of opportunity, it does make sense. The only thing I was thinking is that the balance check should take place after the attack as the character springs back-out of combat. Any thoughts. I noticed the piece on being attacked while balancing. In the situation I have described the Hobgoblin was standing on the difficult terrain of giant bones. Would it follow that the Hobgoblin would have to make a balance check while standing on the bones and being attacked. Unless it has 5 ranks in Balance that is. Infact anyone standing on the difficult terrain of bones will have to make a balance check while being attacked. Prom
jaelis 06-24-07, 02:58 AM	Spring attacking doesn't make movement any harder or easier. If the DM said you needed a balance check, then your opponent should have needed to make one too.
Polaris 06-24-07, 03:33 AM	Spring attacking doesn't make movement any harder or easier. If the DM said you needed a balance check, then your opponent should have needed to make one too. Not in this case. In this case, the Hobgoblin never actually got attacked. You only have to make the balance check if you move or are being attacked. This the hobgoblin had a situational tactical advantage by standing still (which is pretty easy to understand and visualize). Thanks for the response, just read the accelerated movement section of the balance skill on page 67. Spring attack is not strictly moving any faster than normal speed, but with the dodging back-out of combat without getting hit with an attack of opportunity, it does make sense. The only thing I was thinking is that the balance check should take place after the attack as the character springs back-out of combat. Any thoughts. Actually that depends. If the DM ruled that this was a 'narrow' or 'treacherous' surface where any movement (or attack) required a balance check (a ruling that seems at least sensible to me given what you've described), then no. You moved on the treachous surface requiring the roll. The movement first occured before the attack. Had you made your roll and attacked the hobgoblin, then the hobgoblin would have had to make a balance check himself. Also (although this obviously never came up), unless the hobgoblin had 5 or more ranks of balance, he'd lose his Dexterity bonus to AC (and everything that implies). I noticed the piece on being attacked while balancing. In the situation I have described the Hobgoblin was standing on the difficult terrain of giant bones. Would it follow that the Hobgoblin would have to make a balance check while standing on the bones and being attacked. Unless it has 5 ranks in Balance that is. Infact anyone standing on the difficult terrain of bones will have to make a balance check while being attacked. Yes had the hobgoblin in fact been attacked. You didn't make your balance check and since your first movement preceded any attack you could have made, the hobgoblin wasn't in fact attacked and thus no balance check would be required. -Polaris
jaelis 06-24-07, 03:41 AM	Not in this case. In this case, the Hobgoblin never actually got attacked. You only have to make the balance check if you move or are being attacked. This the hobgoblin had a situational tactical advantage by standing still (which is pretty easy to understand and visualize). Beg pardon, I meant that if the hobgoblin moved, he should have to make a balance check. That if the terrain requires balance checks for movement, everyone needs to make them, spring attacking or not. (Or as you say, if the hobgoblin was actually balancing, he'd need a check if attacked. But you could have terrain that requires balance checks for movement, but not that you actually need to balance on. We'd just have to know what the DM had in mind.)
pukunui 06-24-07, 04:43 AM	I'm the DM in question. This was a "not covered by the rules so I'll make something up on the fly" situation. Basically, there was a 10ft wide gap in a castle wall that was full of rubble and a Huge forest giant skeleton. This was classed as difficult terrain but required no balance check to simply move through (thus the hobgoblin made no check). He was not necessarily standing on the skeleton. However, I felt that springing into an area full of rubble and bones would require a balance check in order to land safely and in such a way that you could then attack and spring away again. Even if that's too literal a reading of the feat and the PC is not so much leaping as just rushing forward, it still implies faster than normal movement. Requiring a balance check for it made sense to me at the time and the player failed the check by more than 5, so his PC fell flat on his face. If the consensus is that I made the wrong call, I'm happy to accept it. However, since it didn't result in anything more than embarrassment for the player and his PC, I'm not going to worry about it much. Cheers, Jonny
Nom 06-24-07, 10:29 AM	By the rules, you made a wrong call. Spring attack doesn't require you to move faster than "hustle", and the only special restriction is "not wearing heavy armour". If a character would not suffer an effect if they performed a move-attack or attack-move, then they should not suffer it due to Spring Attack.
Polaris 06-24-07, 12:16 PM	By the rules, you made a wrong call. Spring attack doesn't require you to move faster than "hustle", and the only special restriction is "not wearing heavy armour". If a character would not suffer an effect if they performed a move-attack or attack-move, then they should not suffer it due to Spring Attack. Actually to nitpick a pit, the only special restriction is "not having your speed reduced due to encumberance or armor". Dwarves can tumble at any encumberance and in any armor for this reason. I'm the DM in question. This was a "not covered by the rules so I'll make something up on the fly" situation. Basically, there was a 10ft wide gap in a castle wall that was full of rubble and a Huge forest giant skeleton. This was classed as difficult terrain but required no balance check to simply move through (thus the hobgoblin made no check). He was not necessarily standing on the skeleton. Ah so. In that case you did in fact make the wrong call given that spring attack doesn't require any more strenous movement than simple hustling. If the hobgoblin didn't have to make a balance check while moving then the spring attacking PC didn't either RAW. However, as you said it's a minor point to be aware of in the future and as I said before, you on-spot ruling seemed reasonable at first blush (even if it was technically wrong in the end). That's good enough for me. -Polaris
pukunui 06-24-07, 04:06 PM	Thanks guys. From now on, I won't require a balance check to spring attack through difficult terrain, which, I'm sure, will make my player very happy. :) You can't always make the right call in the heat of the moment, especially when it's not covered explicitly in the rules (and it also happens to be about 12:30am and you can't really think straight anyway). I suppose I could always just say that the hobgoblin did make a balance check (and succeeded) but of course that would be cheating ... :angelhide Cheers, Jonny
Prom 06-24-07, 04:16 PM	Hi All, So difficult terrain that slows movement but does not require a balance check to move through it or balance while attacking, should not require a balance check for a spring attack. If a balance check is required to move through the terrain or balance while attacking, then a balance check would be required for a spring attack. That makes sense to me, and it is better to clear it up now. As I have the feat spring attack and more than likely will come across this problem again. Posted by Pukunui, However, since it didn't result in anything more than embarrassment for the player. I was more frustrated by the call then embarrised, Pukunui. I watched Hobgoblin's move across the terrain and attack with no balance check being required. It was also very late at night and no ones brain was working well, including my own. Thanks for the advice: Polaris, Nom and jaelis. Prom
pukunui 06-24-07, 04:18 PM	I was more frustrated by the call then embarrised, Pukunui. I watched Hobgoblin's move across the terrain and attack with no balance check being required. It was also very late at night and no ones brain was working well, including my own. Except that even if I had made the hobgoblins roll balance checks, you never would have known unless they had failed. :teach: Just thought I'd point that out. EDIT: The thing is, the module itself is silent on the terrain effects for the encounter. I just assumed that a Huge forest giant skeleton, combined with a whole lot of rubble, would have some effect on movement. For all I know, I should have required everyone to climb through/over the skeleton. In the heat of the moment, I decided it would count as difficult terrain.
Nom 06-24-07, 08:51 PM	Actually to nitpick a pit, the only special restriction is "not having your speed reduced due to encumberance or armor".Yeah, that's what I thought Spring Attack said too. So I checked it up, and PH pg 100 quite clearly says "heavy armour." Dwarves can tumble at any encumberance and in any armor for this reason.The restrictions on Spring Attack are different to (and except in the special case of Dwarves, less onerous than) those on Tumble. Spring Attack: not heavy armour Tumble: no speed reduction due to armour or load Prom and Pukunai: yeah, the terrain rules aren't always easy to find. Difficult terrain is relatively easy: it slows you down. Stuff that's not open floors, roads, or "clear" terrain is difficult. As DM, I often avoid declaring difficult terrain even when it strictly should be since it neuters 5 ft. steps and restricts mobility, making for much more boring combats. Terrain gets tricky when you start dealing with heavy undergrowth, water, or slippery or narrow surfaces since a whole new set of rules come into play.
Polaris 06-24-07, 09:13 PM	Yeah, that's what I thought Spring Attack said too. So I checked it up, and PH pg 100 quite clearly says "heavy armour." The restrictions on Spring Attack are different to (and except in the special case of Dwarves, less onerous than) those on Tumble. You're right. I was thinking about Tumble. Sorry about that. It's worth noting that Mithril Full Plate is considered medium armor and thus you can spring-attack in it. -Polaris
pukunui 06-24-07, 09:33 PM	Prom and Pukunai: yeah, the terrain rules aren't always easy to find. Difficult terrain is relatively easy: it slows you down. Stuff that's not open floors, roads, or "clear" terrain is difficult. As DM, I often avoid declaring difficult terrain even when it strictly should be since it neuters 5 ft. steps and restricts mobility, making for much more boring combats. Terrain gets tricky when you start dealing with heavy undergrowth, water, or slippery or narrow surfaces since a whole new set of rules come into play.Yes. I probably should have read up on terrain rules before the session started but to be honest it just never occurred to me until I saw what the players were planning and that it involved fighting in the relatively narrow gap in a 15ft high wall that was full of rubble and a Huge forest giant skeleton. I probably should have made it more than just difficult terrain but it's a bit too late for that now ...