Spring Attack + Fighting Defensively [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spring Attack + Fighting Defensively [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bkdubs123
04-28-08, 11:12 PM This is okay right? I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be, but I just wanted to be sure. Spring Attack + Melee Evasion for a skirmisher type character is pretty nice.
mplindustries
04-29-08, 01:09 AM This is okay right? I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be, but I just wanted to be sure. Spring Attack + Melee Evasion for a skirmisher type character is pretty nice.
Strictly? No. You can fight definsively (1) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#fightingDefensivelya saStandardAction) as part of a standard action, or (2) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#fightingDefensivelya saFullRoundAction) as part of a full round action. Spring Attack only allows a single attack, not a standard or full round action.

However, thats really nit-picky, and I've got to say, I don't think there are very many GMs who would disallow it, or more imporantly, even know it isn't RAW. I know I would allow it, but my houserules are pretty liberal, in favor of non-magical characters.
bkdubs123
04-29-08, 02:28 AM Single attacks are standard actions. And technically, to use Spring Attack you take a Full Round Action.

Spring Attack honestly isn't worded well though. The feat literally doen't describe how the actions are taken at all. If you use it RAW I don't even think you can actually move after your attack, because since it doesn't say anything about how you use your actions you've already used your move action to move prior to the attack, and your standard action to attack to equal a full round action. Since it doesn't reference anything about the actions used in that sequence it leaves it somewhat cloudy as to how Fighting Defensively is supposed to work with it. Unless I'm missing errata on Spring Attack, which I could be.
mplindustries
04-29-08, 03:08 AM Single attacks are standard actions.
Sorry to cut it there, but this is fundamentally flawed as an argument. Yes, single attacks are standard actions. But standard actions are not single attacks.

As for the rest, Spring Attack is worded strangely. However, it is still possible to figure out whats going on (Now, if anything, the lack of clarification, I think, would lead to the movement and attack all taking an attack action and not a full round action, but I digress).

"When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack..." In truth, its not just a "you can," but a "you must" as you are required to move at least 5' before and after the attack. So, what actually happens? You take the attack action, which you correctly identified as a standard action (but not any standard action...that specific one), during your move action.

Would it have been easier to word Spring Attack as, "You can use the attack action during a move action, as long as you move at least 5' before and after you make the attack?" Of course, but whatever, the game is badly written. Oh well.

Now, Fighting Defensively is also worded poorly. If you look at the links I provided, they are clearly labeled with the type of action it takes. "Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action." It does not say, "Fighting Defensively during a Standard Action," or "Fighting Defensively as part of a Standard Action" This means the "Attack" action, allowed by Spring Attack, and the "Fighting Defensively" action are not the same thing.

Didn't I say it was nit-picky? Didn't I say that most DMs would not run it this way? Yes, yes I did. This is RAW. Its not good(I personally hate RAW), it just is.

I honestly think Fighting Defensively should have just been an option you could use along with any attack, no matter what action the attack takes. The reason it isn't that way, is that I'm sure they couldn't come up with sufficient wording to require both:
A) that you actually make a melee attack and don't just "fight defensively" whenever you take a non-melee action and
B) that you choose whether or not to Fight Defensively before you make any attacks, and you can't go back and change your mind until the next round.

Anyway, if you didn't expect objection to Spring Attack and Fighting Defensively, why did you post something asking about it? What did you see contoversial enough about it that you felt it necessary to ask the forum?
Dheran
04-29-08, 03:28 PM If you use it RAW I don't even think you can actually move after your attack, because since it doesn't say anything about how you use your actions you've already used your move action to move prior to the attack, and your standard action to attack to equal a full round action. Since it doesn't reference anything about the actions used in that sequence it leaves it somewhat cloudy as to how Fighting Defensively is supposed to work with it. Unless I'm missing errata on Spring Attack, which I could be.
Not errata, but the updated text in the leather-bound special edition Player's Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Special-Handbook-Rulebook-Dungeons-Roleplaying/dp/0786934328/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209496958&sr=1-2) states that Spring Attack involves a move action that's split around your attack. (The actual type of action required for the attack itself isn't specified, so you could use a Belt of Battle to take a full attack action in your Spring Attack.)
bkdubs123
04-29-08, 10:02 PM So then, yes, you can fight defensively and spring attack as you are still taking a single attack as a standard action.

@mplindustries: I asked because I thought I must have been missing something. Spring Attack is written unclearly. Fighting Defensively is written unclearly. The heading in the PHB is Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action, yes, but then the text just underneath goes on to say,

You can choose to fight defensively when attacking.

I don't really take the heading as rules text.
Divisionbyzer0
04-29-08, 11:59 PM So then, yes, you can fight defensively and spring attack as you are still taking a single attack as a standard action.

@mplindustries: I asked because I thought I must have been missing something. Spring Attack is written unclearly. Fighting Defensively is written unclearly. The heading in the PHB is Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action, yes, but then the text just underneath goes on to say,

I don't really take the heading as rules text.
What else could you do while fighting defensively besides attack?

Spring attack is a full round action, as per the description of the feat. It's really not worded poorly.

I think you can do it.

Nothing about spring attack and fighting defensively says to me that you can't fight defensively while spring attacking.

PS: there is no RAW -- everything is interpreted.
Kouk
04-30-08, 12:17 AM I agree with mplindustries that strictly by the RAW, you cannot use Fighting Defensively with Spring Attack, because Fighting Defensively is listed as either a Standard Action or as a Full-round Action, and not just any old attack action.

I'm sure the reason is so that you can't take a couple of swings at your highest bonus, then use your last swing (with the lowest attack bonus) to Fight Defensively and claim the AC bonus even if you didn't expect to hit with that attack anyway.

The FAQ notes several times that Spring Attack only works with "an attack action" and not any Action that involves an attack.

Would it be terrible to allow you to Fight Defensively? It would probably be fine.

Note that you could use Fighting Defensively with Flyby Attack, because you actually get a Standard Action in the middle of your Move Action.
Divisionbyzer0
04-30-08, 01:47 AM I agree with mplindustries that strictly by the RAW, you cannot use Fighting Defensively with Spring Attack, because Fighting Defensively is listed as either a Standard Action or as a Full-round Action, and not just any old attack action.

I'm sure the reason is so that you can't take a couple of swings at your highest bonus, then use your last swing (with the lowest attack bonus) to Fight Defensively and claim the AC bonus even if you didn't expect to hit with that attack anyway.

The FAQ notes several times that Spring Attack only works with "an attack action" and not any Action that involves an attack.

Would it be terrible to allow you to Fight Defensively? It would probably be fine.

Note that you could use Fighting Defensively with Flyby Attack, because you actually get a Standard Action in the middle of your Move Action.

The FAQ isn't clear. In one part it says "the attack option" and in another it says "you may only make a single attack". While fighting defensively you can only make a single attack, but such an attack presumably isn't the aforementioned "the attack option".

"RAW" or not, I'd allow it. Spring attacking seems like a "defensive" enough fighting style to me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bkdubs123 04-28-08, 11:12 PM	This is okay right? I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be, but I just wanted to be sure. Spring Attack + Melee Evasion for a skirmisher type character is pretty nice.
mplindustries 04-29-08, 01:09 AM	This is okay right? I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be, but I just wanted to be sure. Spring Attack + Melee Evasion for a skirmisher type character is pretty nice. Strictly? No. You can fight definsively (1) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#fightingDefensivelya saStandardAction) as part of a standard action, or (2) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#fightingDefensivelya saFullRoundAction) as part of a full round action. Spring Attack only allows a single attack, not a standard or full round action. However, thats really nit-picky, and I've got to say, I don't think there are very many GMs who would disallow it, or more imporantly, even know it isn't RAW. I know I would allow it, but my houserules are pretty liberal, in favor of non-magical characters.
bkdubs123 04-29-08, 02:28 AM	Single attacks are standard actions. And technically, to use Spring Attack you take a Full Round Action. Spring Attack honestly isn't worded well though. The feat literally doen't describe how the actions are taken at all. If you use it RAW I don't even think you can actually move after your attack, because since it doesn't say anything about how you use your actions you've already used your move action to move prior to the attack, and your standard action to attack to equal a full round action. Since it doesn't reference anything about the actions used in that sequence it leaves it somewhat cloudy as to how Fighting Defensively is supposed to work with it. Unless I'm missing errata on Spring Attack, which I could be.
mplindustries 04-29-08, 03:08 AM	Single attacks are standard actions. Sorry to cut it there, but this is fundamentally flawed as an argument. Yes, single attacks are standard actions. But standard actions are not single attacks. As for the rest, Spring Attack is worded strangely. However, it is still possible to figure out whats going on (Now, if anything, the lack of clarification, I think, would lead to the movement and attack all taking an attack action and not a full round action, but I digress). "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack..." In truth, its not just a "you can," but a "you must" as you are required to move at least 5' before and after the attack. So, what actually happens? You take the attack action, which you correctly identified as a standard action (but not any standard action...that specific one), during your move action. Would it have been easier to word Spring Attack as, "You can use the attack action during a move action, as long as you move at least 5' before and after you make the attack?" Of course, but whatever, the game is badly written. Oh well. Now, Fighting Defensively is also worded poorly. If you look at the links I provided, they are clearly labeled with the type of action it takes. "Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action." It does not say, "Fighting Defensively during a Standard Action," or "Fighting Defensively as part of a Standard Action" This means the "Attack" action, allowed by Spring Attack, and the "Fighting Defensively" action are not the same thing. Didn't I say it was nit-picky? Didn't I say that most DMs would not run it this way? Yes, yes I did. This is RAW. Its not good(I personally hate RAW), it just is. I honestly think Fighting Defensively should have just been an option you could use along with any attack, no matter what action the attack takes. The reason it isn't that way, is that I'm sure they couldn't come up with sufficient wording to require both: A) that you actually make a melee attack and don't just "fight defensively" whenever you take a non-melee action and B) that you choose whether or not to Fight Defensively before you make any attacks, and you can't go back and change your mind until the next round. Anyway, if you didn't expect objection to Spring Attack and Fighting Defensively, why did you post something asking about it? What did you see contoversial enough about it that you felt it necessary to ask the forum?
Dheran 04-29-08, 03:28 PM	If you use it RAW I don't even think you can actually move after your attack, because since it doesn't say anything about how you use your actions you've already used your move action to move prior to the attack, and your standard action to attack to equal a full round action. Since it doesn't reference anything about the actions used in that sequence it leaves it somewhat cloudy as to how Fighting Defensively is supposed to work with it. Unless I'm missing errata on Spring Attack, which I could be. Not errata, but the updated text in the leather-bound special edition Player's Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Special-Handbook-Rulebook-Dungeons-Roleplaying/dp/0786934328/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209496958&sr=1-2) states that Spring Attack involves a move action that's split around your attack. (The actual type of action required for the attack itself isn't specified, so you could use a Belt of Battle to take a full attack action in your Spring Attack.)
bkdubs123 04-29-08, 10:02 PM	So then, yes, you can fight defensively and spring attack as you are still taking a single attack as a standard action. @mplindustries: I asked because I thought I must have been missing something. Spring Attack is written unclearly. Fighting Defensively is written unclearly. The heading in the PHB is Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action, yes, but then the text just underneath goes on to say, You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. I don't really take the heading as rules text.
Divisionbyzer0 04-29-08, 11:59 PM	So then, yes, you can fight defensively and spring attack as you are still taking a single attack as a standard action. @mplindustries: I asked because I thought I must have been missing something. Spring Attack is written unclearly. Fighting Defensively is written unclearly. The heading in the PHB is Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action, yes, but then the text just underneath goes on to say, I don't really take the heading as rules text. What else could you do while fighting defensively besides attack? Spring attack is a full round action, as per the description of the feat. It's really not worded poorly. I think you can do it. Nothing about spring attack and fighting defensively says to me that you can't fight defensively while spring attacking. PS: there is no RAW -- everything is interpreted.
Kouk 04-30-08, 12:17 AM	I agree with mplindustries that strictly by the RAW, you cannot use Fighting Defensively with Spring Attack, because Fighting Defensively is listed as either a Standard Action or as a Full-round Action, and not just any old attack action. I'm sure the reason is so that you can't take a couple of swings at your highest bonus, then use your last swing (with the lowest attack bonus) to Fight Defensively and claim the AC bonus even if you didn't expect to hit with that attack anyway. The FAQ notes several times that Spring Attack only works with "an attack action" and not any Action that involves an attack. Would it be terrible to allow you to Fight Defensively? It would probably be fine. Note that you could use Fighting Defensively with Flyby Attack, because you actually get a Standard Action in the middle of your Move Action.
Divisionbyzer0 04-30-08, 01:47 AM	I agree with mplindustries that strictly by the RAW, you cannot use Fighting Defensively with Spring Attack, because Fighting Defensively is listed as either a Standard Action or as a Full-round Action, and not just any old attack action. I'm sure the reason is so that you can't take a couple of swings at your highest bonus, then use your last swing (with the lowest attack bonus) to Fight Defensively and claim the AC bonus even if you didn't expect to hit with that attack anyway. The FAQ notes several times that Spring Attack only works with "an attack action" and not any Action that involves an attack. Would it be terrible to allow you to Fight Defensively? It would probably be fine. Note that you could use Fighting Defensively with Flyby Attack, because you actually get a Standard Action in the middle of your Move Action. The FAQ isn't clear. In one part it says "the attack option" and in another it says "you may only make a single attack". While fighting defensively you can only make a single attack, but such an attack presumably isn't the aforementioned "the attack option". "RAW" or not, I'd allow it. Spring attacking seems like a "defensive" enough fighting style to me.