Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZeroAvatar 11-24-06, 05:57 PM	Is it possible to do a Strike maneuvre (of ToB) in conjunction with a Spring Attack?
DarkRhystar 11-24-06, 07:16 PM	Is it possible to do a Strike maneuvre (of ToB) in conjunction with a Spring Attack? Spring Attack requires an "Attack action." Attack actions are defined as Standard Actions (PhB 139). Strike Maneuvers also (usually) require a Standard Action. Since you are not able to make more than 1 Standard Action per turn, you cannot combine Spring Attack with a Strike Maneuver requiring Standard or Full-Round actions.
imba_duskblade 11-26-06, 10:06 AM	Can i combine Spring Attack and the channeling Ability form duskblades?
VonRichthofen 11-26-06, 11:09 AM	Same reasoning as above: NO Why should the Duskblade's Standard Action be anything different from that of any other character? Same thing applies for the Full Attack Action. It is not a Spring Attack.
WinterPsionic 11-27-06, 12:31 AM	Spring Attack requires an "Attack action." Attack actions are defined as Standard Actions (PhB 139). Strike Maneuvers also (usually) require a Standard Action. Since you are not able to make more than 1 Standard Action per turn, you cannot combine Spring Attack with a Strike Maneuver requiring Standard or Full-Round actions. Ummm... "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate." An attack action....your basically justifying that you could...and as long as the maneuver only requires an attack/standard I don't see why you couldn't, though some techniques come to mind that are obvious exceptions...
Ogre4Hire 11-27-06, 12:34 AM	It's because taking an Attack Action and taking a Standard Action that includes a Melee Attack are not the same thing. Likewise, you couldn't use Spring Attack with Shocking Grasp or Vampiric Touch.
Tempest Stormwind 11-27-06, 12:38 AM	It's because taking an Attack Action and taking a Standard Action that includes a Melee Attack are not the same thing. Likewise, you couldn't use Spring Attack with Shocking Grasp or Vampiric Touch. Unless you cast it the round before and are holding the charge. ;) WinterPsionic: An attack action is defined in the game. It's not an arbitrary thing. In this case, you can spend a standard action to take an attack action, defined as a single attack. Spring Attack lets you move before and after this, instead of just one or the other, provided that attack is a melee attack. Do note that when you make a full attack, you make a series of attack actions (if your base attack bonus is high enough) as a full-round action. You COULD use Spring Attack with a trip, disarm, or sunder attack (as these are special types of attack actions), or, theoretically, a grapple, although if you're successful there you may not be able to move afterward. You COULD NOT combine it with a Strike maneuver from the ToB, since those all require a standard action or a full-round action to implement. You COULD use a boost (swift action) and then apply that to your (spring-attack) attack action(s), though.
WinterPsionic 11-27-06, 12:43 AM	It's because taking an Attack Action and taking a Standard Action that includes a Melee Attack are not the same thing. Likewise, you couldn't use Spring Attack with Shocking Grasp or Vampiric Touch. I've never though of Spring attack as a standard action...more like a general move equivalent divided in 2, note how it says "When using the attack action", it never implies it has a presence or timing of it's own. I mean Steel Wind is a standard action maneuver that simply allows an attack against 2 adjacent opponents. I see no reason you couldn't spring for that.
WinterPsionic 11-27-06, 12:45 AM	Unless you cast it the round before and are holding the charge. ;) WinterPsionic: An attack action is defined in the game. It's not an arbitrary thing. In this case, you can spend a standard action to take an attack action, defined as a single attack. Spring Attack lets you move before and after this, instead of just one or the other, provided that attack is a melee attack. Do note that when you make a full attack, you make a series of attack actions (if your base attack bonus is high enough) as a full-round action. You COULD use Spring Attack with a trip, disarm, or sunder attack (as these are special types of attack actions), or, theoretically, a grapple, although if you're successful there you may not be able to move afterward. You COULD NOT combine it with a Strike maneuver from the ToB, since those all require a standard action or a full-round action to implement. You COULD use a boost (swift action) and then apply that to your (spring-attack) attack action(s), though. Hmmm I suppose that makes sense...I guess I've never considered the dynamics between "an attack action" and a "standard action" so firmly set. So by RAW I guess you can't though this isn't something I'd argue over as a DM as long as the strike would fit the move/style. Then again I don't see any imblanance in sacrificing a stance or technique to allow a technique to be used multiple times w/o charging (example a lvl 2 Warblade sacrifices a Technique and Stance known to maintain 2 techniques as always readied)
imba_duskblade 11-27-06, 03:53 AM	A 3rd lv duskblade could move up to his speed and channel a spell through his weapon. Why shouldn't he get the second move, if he bought an extra feat for that? Its only the move after the attack - is that not worse a feat?? I mean, if he can move and attack/channel without that feat, why not move - attack/channel - move WITH spring attack?
KurenaiYami 11-27-06, 03:57 AM	I mean, if he can move and attack/channel without that feat, why not move - attack/channel - move WITH spring attack? ...because the feat doesn't allow it?
VonRichthofen 11-27-06, 05:34 AM	...because the feat doesn't allow it? That's it, people. Plain and simple. The rules say you can't use any type of Standard Action with Spring Attack, only one very clearly specified type of Standard Action - the Attack Action. End of debate. Crying "boo" just because it doesn't fit your idea on how your build should work has nothing to do with this simple matter of reality. You can always break rules "just because flavor dictates", but that's nothing to be discussed here, honestly. Btw, we've had this discussion a hundred times over when CW came out and people just couldn't swallow the fact their so belovedly-broken Order of the Bow Initiates couldn't use Ranged Precision in conjunction with Greater Manyshot and Shot on the Run, all at the same time. Same problem here, just different names. "But I am an OotBI! I should be able to do an extra 20d8 every round, and still be able to appear from cover and run back to it again!" Gawk, it's coming back again...
Ryu Katsuragi 11-27-06, 10:11 AM	I dunno... I think the worst offender is since Wizards published Monkey Grip and Powerful Build. The amount of threads on that (not to mention, katanas and Japanese weapons in general) make me want to bash my head open with a rusty hammer.
VonRichthofen 11-27-06, 10:28 AM	...make me want to bash my head open with a rusty hammer. Bash away! :D And while we're having a rant, yes, PB & MG are top-rank offenders, but katana threads are great fun: The number of fanboys seems unlimited, and their ideas - oh, well, they make me laugh everytime I read them, over and over again. And a thing that makes you laugh ought to be good for something, after all. :D
pmurray@bigpond.com 11-27-06, 09:10 PM	I've never though of Spring attack as a standard action...more like a general move equivalent divided in 2, Much in the same way that tumble is not a move action - it is something that you can do "as part of normal movement".
Esponer 11-27-06, 09:33 PM	Would people consider a feat which improved Spring Attack to allow any sort of standard action reasonable? If so, should it exclusively allow manoeuvres/arcane channelling/both and a few other similar things, or is any standard action at all reasonable? Compare with Fly-By Attack. Note: an adept who wishes to "spring attack" whilst using a strike should consider sudden leap, quicksilver motion and shadow blink.
imba_duskblade 11-28-06, 02:50 AM	Note: an adept who wishes to "spring attack" whilst using a strike should consider sudden leap, quicksilver motion and shadow blink. where to find, plz?
Optimator 11-28-06, 03:10 AM	Would people consider a feat which improved Spring Attack to allow any sort of standard action reasonable? If so, should it exclusively allow manoeuvres/arcane channelling/both and a few other similar things, or is any standard action at all reasonable? Compare with Fly-By Attack. I've done this for ToB. It's... really good.
makeshiftwings 11-28-06, 03:32 AM	And while we're having a rant, yes, PB & MG are top-rank offenders, but katana threads are great fun: The number of fanboys seems unlimited, and their ideas - oh, well, they make me laugh everytime I read them, over and over again. And a thing that makes you laugh ought to be good for something, after all. :D there is nothing funny about katanas. do u realize that they fold the steel in a katana seventeen million times when making it? the edge of a real katana is so sharp that it could cut through the earth, and that is why Japan is just an island now. the katanas that are still around today that most people think are real are just fake ones because the real ones were all destroyed because samurais had honor and had to fall on their swords and then break them and they could only be broken in this special way that samurais were taught but i have a real one and it is still sharp even though i cut a tree once with it just because my friend didn't believe i could lol. i saw this show on the history channel once and steven hawking or someone said that a real katana was so sharp it could cut thru a black hole. i came up with stats for katana for dnd and my dm said no because he is stupid and said the rule already is there that its a bastard sword but that is so stupid because a real katana can cut thru a thousand bastard swords and also is so light that it is faster than a dagger or anything, even sound but maybe not light except if you are really strong. anyway the rule didn't work because a katana would need to have like a four hundred sided dice to roll, and every number on the dice would have to be a million, and my dm said they don't make those or something which is so stupid hopefully they will make one for 4th edition.
VonRichthofen 11-28-06, 04:13 AM	there is nothing funny about katanas. do u realize that they fold the steel in a katana seventeen million times when making it? the edge of a real katana is so sharp that it could cut through the earth, and that is why Japan is just an island now. the katanas that are still around today that most people think are real are just fake ones because the real ones were all destroyed because samurais had honor and had to fall on their swords and then break them and they could only be broken in this special way that samurais were taught but i have a real one and it is still sharp even though i cut a tree once with it just because my friend didn't believe i could lol. i saw this show on the history channel once and steven hawking or someone said that a real katana was so sharp it could cut thru a black hole. i came up with stats for katana for dnd and my dm said no because he is stupid and said the rule already is there that its a bastard sword but that is so stupid because a real katana can cut thru a thousand bastard swords and also is so light that it is faster than a dagger or anything, even sound but maybe not light except if you are really strong. anyway the rule didn't work because a katana would need to have like a four hundred sided dice to roll, and every number on the dice would have to be a million, and my dm said they don't make those or something which is so stupid hopefully they will make one for 4th edition. I stand in awe. :D
chucky 11-28-06, 12:09 PM	AS far as i can remember the manouvers from TOB say that if the manouver is a standard action it must be used as part of a standard action. Not that its the only standard action you can use. So yes you can run up to sombody and smack them, like any other attack, and then run off out of their reach. Some manouvers are set so that they are the only attack you can use that round if you use them. But that does not mean you cannot move and then use that attack or if you had spring attack you could not run hit and then run. Just like you could run up to sombody, disarm them, and then run away if you wanted to. The manouvers are not spells you dont need to concentrate to do them they are just special attacks you need training to do.
elonin 11-28-06, 12:17 PM	This doesn't help with TOB stuff. If you want to (effectively) spring attack then get the dervish dance ability. Let's you attack, move, attack etc while dancing.
DarknessEternal 11-28-06, 04:08 PM	Dervish dance is type of full attack action. So again, no.
DarkRhystar 11-28-06, 05:04 PM	Dervish dance is type of full attack action. So again, no. Um, all the poster was saying was that the Dervish lets you move and attack. And he explicitly said himself that it doesn't help ToB so what are you saying no to?
elonin 11-28-06, 06:51 PM	The only point I was trying to make is that it is possible to get a full attack while moving more than 5-foot step. Sorry if my post came off as more than that.
WinterPsionic 11-28-06, 07:03 PM	there is nothing funny about katanas. do u realize that they fold the steel in a katana seventeen million times when making it? the edge of a real katana is so sharp that it could cut through the earth, and that is why Japan is just an island now. the katanas that are still around today that most people think are real are just fake ones because the real ones were all destroyed because samurais had honor and had to fall on their swords and then break them and they could only be broken in this special way that samurais were taught but i have a real one and it is still sharp even though i cut a tree once with it just because my friend didn't believe i could lol. i saw this show on the history channel once and steven hawking or someone said that a real katana was so sharp it could cut thru a black hole. i came up with stats for katana for dnd and my dm said no because he is stupid and said the rule already is there that its a bastard sword but that is so stupid because a real katana can cut thru a thousand bastard swords and also is so light that it is faster than a dagger or anything, even sound but maybe not light except if you are really strong. anyway the rule didn't work because a katana would need to have like a four hundred sided dice to roll, and every number on the dice would have to be a million, and my dm said they don't make those or something which is so stupid hopefully they will make one for 4th edition. .....ya..... 1. The typical katana had steel folded 70-100 times....NOT seventeen million 2. Japan is not an island because Samurai kept slashing the ground....and most swords can cut through "earth" hell a broom handle with a point could cut through "earth" 3. A Black Hole is a sheer mass of energy, anything with a strong enough physical structure and the ability to resist the suction would be able to "cut thru" a "black hole" as long as you aren't one of the believers that think anything entering the hole is instantly absorbed/destroyed/transported. 4. WHAT THE HELL does Steven Hawking know about Black Holes? I mean really, if Kevin Sorbo said you could survive a boulder falling on your head because you slapped 2 pieces of leather and metal to your fore-arms would you believe him? 5. It isn't hard to break the speed of sound, I mean the general concept behind being able to "crack a whip" is if I remember correctly... because your breaking the sound barrier, NO ONE can possibly swing a sword/dagger/piece of paper/butterfly net/etc at the speed of light....PERIOD 6. A Katana WOULD NOT deal a million damage...unless your typicaly creature had 30 million or above hit points. Based on the basic rules a weapon of the nature your desciribing would not only be able to slay a large number of Deities in a single swing it would most likely cut through the very fabric of space and time...if that's even possible.... 7. Based on your posting I would think your a little to young to be posting on these boards w/o permission or your so far off in la-la land that you've lost the ability to distinguish between fact and fiction...it must be nice living in your dream world...I mean it's certainly messed up enough...
elonin 11-28-06, 07:31 PM	[QUOTE=WinterPsionic;10764258].....ya..... 1. The typical katana had steel folded 70-100 times....NOT seventeen million QUOTE] Makeshiftwings just referred to a common misconception. The 1 million number is talking about the approximate number of layers. Not sure off hand but that is 17 folds. Also, the Katana edge is superior to what the europeans could accomplish. Lastly, if used incorrectly a katana is fairly easy to break.
strenoth 11-28-06, 07:51 PM	Well, that and the post WInter was responding to was in jest I'm sure. :) Anyway, onto the topic on hand Consider the follow list to be from 'biggest' to 'smallest' action Full Round Action (very rare I might add) 1 round actions (Full Attack, some spells, spontaneous meta-magic spells) Standard Action Move Action Basically, the bigger actions can be used to perform the smaller action, but not visa verse Now, there are many possibe standard actions. One of these is the Attack action. A different standard action is the Strike action (which is admittedly more useful than an attack action most of the time). Spring attack specifies you can use an Attack Action in the middle of a move action. Similiar to the above list, an attack action is 'less' than a standard action, in the sense that a standard action can be spent to perform an attack, but an attack can not be spent to perform a standard action. if you could do that, then a Full Attack with TWF would let you cast a LOT of spells. :) Now that we've eliminated using strikes with Spring Attack (I know, :( ) let's move on to possibilities. 1) House rule it : Eh, no, not yet I don't think. 2) Create feat that builds on spring attack, becomes any standard action: this is to abusable. 3) "springing strike" feat that builds on spring attack, would read the same as spring attack but replaces "attack action" with "Martial Strike". (least abusable wording I can think of.): I like this one personally, but you migth need some caveats built in to which strikes can be used (unless you want spring attacks involving enhanced two-weapon attacks and such)
Mc_Bane 11-28-06, 08:13 PM	Now I am well aware that this makes me look like an ass, but I felt it needed to be said. .....ya..... 3. A Black Hole is a sheer mass of energy, anything with a strong enough physical structure and the ability to resist the suction would be able to "cut thru" a "black hole" as long as you aren't one of the believers that think anything entering the hole is instantly absorbed/destroyed/transported. 4. WHAT THE HELL does Steven Hawking know about Black Holes? Well, mass of energy.....mass is energy, and it is unclear what a black hole is, i.e. a singularity, a point of extreme mass etc. As for resisting the suction, well, thats just silly. Its not suction, and once you are passed the event horizon, nothing can resist it, at all, as to do so you would have to travel faster than the speed of light, which is impossible c.f. general relativity. Otherwise, as for entering the hole, I assume you mean cross the event horizon, and a theory currently held by a fair few is that the information is emitted as "Hawking Radiation". The body would then exist more or less in two places at once. Besides which it isnt clear, so, is could well be transported or whatever. As for point 4, well, nevermind.......
WinterPsionic 11-28-06, 10:27 PM	Now I am well aware that this makes me look like an ass, but I felt it needed to be said. Well, mass of energy.....mass is energy, and it is unclear what a black hole is, i.e. a singularity, a point of extreme mass etc. As for resisting the suction, well, thats just silly. Its not suction, and once you are passed the event horizon, nothing can resist it, at all, as to do so you would have to travel faster than the speed of light, which is impossible c.f. general relativity. Otherwise, as for entering the hole, I assume you mean cross the event horizon, and a theory currently held by a fair few is that the information is emitted as "Hawking Radiation". The body would then exist more or less in two places at once. Besides which it isnt clear, so, is could well be transported or whatever. As for point 4, well, nevermind....... Ok well Mass of Energy was the first thing that showed up on a page when I googled "What is a Black Hole" as I was at a loss of words to properly describe it as for number 4....ya I feel smart....wasn't sure why but I was thinking Steven Seagal...(swords and all....) Hawking didn't click until about an hour later while I was getting dinner...so....ya.....:D
makeshiftwings 11-28-06, 11:41 PM	.....ya..... 1. The typical katana had steel folded 70-100 times....NOT seventeen million no like elonin said you misconcepted and it was really 17 million but when england invaded japan they hadn't invented numbers more than 100 yet but japan could count really high they had an abacuss(sp?) so england knights tried to count teh layers but thought only 100. 2. Japan is not an island because Samurai kept slashing the ground....and most swords can cut through "earth" hell a broom handle with a point could cut through "earth" lol a broom can't cut thru earth well maybe if a samurai held it but still lol 3. A Black Hole is a sheer mass of energy, anything with a strong enough physical structure and the ability to resist the suction would be able to "cut thru" a "black hole" as long as you aren't one of the believers that think anything entering the hole is instantly absorbed/destroyed/transported. no way steven hawking said black holes are like the most powerful thing in the universe EXCEPT katanas 4. WHAT THE HELL does Steven Hawking know about Black Holes? I mean really, if Kevin Sorbo said you could survive a boulder falling on your head because you slapped 2 pieces of leather and metal to your fore-arms would you believe him? u dont know what ur talking about, steven hawking is the smartest person alive because he is the only one who's brain is made out of robots and the robots talk for him 5. It isn't hard to break the speed of sound, I mean the general concept behind being able to "crack a whip" is if I remember correctly... because your breaking the sound barrier, NO ONE can possibly swing a sword/dagger/piece of paper/butterfly net/etc at the speed of light....PERIOD that's why i said ONLY if you were really strong, most people can't do it 6. A Katana WOULD NOT deal a million damage...unless your typicaly creature had 30 million or above hit points. Based on the basic rules a weapon of the nature your desciribing would not only be able to slay a large number of Deities in a single swing it would most likely cut through the very fabric of space and time...if that's even possible.... no because space has like 2 million hit points because it's big and maybe time does too or at least high AC 7. Based on your posting I would think your a little to young to be posting on these boards w/o permission or your so far off in la-la land that you've lost the ability to distinguish between fact and fiction...it must be nice living in your dream world...I mean it's certainly messed up enough... maybe u need to learn about REAL katanas first lol
King Bulba 11-28-06, 11:54 PM	IMO the spirt of the law here would allow you to do it but the letter of the law says no. By RAW you cant, but there is a reason why so many houserules exist since RAW is often retarded. Personally I would huserule that you could.
KurenaiYami 11-29-06, 12:17 AM	no like elonin said you misconcepted and it was really 17 million but when england invaded japan they hadn't invented numbers more than 100 yet but japan could count really high they had an abacuss(sp?) so england knights tried to count teh layers but thought only 100. lol a broom can't cut thru earth well maybe if a samurai held it but still lol no way steven hawking said black holes are like the most powerful thing in the universe EXCEPT katanas u dont know what ur talking about, steven hawking is the smartest person alive because he is the only one who's brain is made out of robots and the robots talk for him that's why i said ONLY if you were really strong, most people can't do it no because space has like 2 million hit points because it's big and maybe time does too or at least high AC maybe u need to learn about REAL katanas first lol I know your joking, but I honestly feel like several billion brain cells committed suicide because of your posts in this thread.
WinterPsionic 11-29-06, 01:38 AM	I know your joking, but I honestly feel like several billion brain cells committed suicide because of your posts in this thread. ...I'm not even sure that encases the amount of damage his posts have done...It's like every time someone reads one god kills a Kitten, and a Puppy, and the cute hamster at the local pet store...and then revives them only to kill them again...
imba_duskblade 11-29-06, 03:53 AM	back to topic plz. :P
VonRichthofen 11-29-06, 04:45 AM	back to topic plz. :P See? The experiment works, no matter the circumstances. You drop the "K" - word, and everybody just starts :censored: up. And that's about it! :evillaugh
Optimator 11-29-06, 01:36 PM	.....ya..... 1. The typical katana had steel folded 70-100 times....NOT seventeen million 2. Japan is not... blah blah blah That went right over your head, didn't it?:nonono: Seriously, though, makeshiftwings, that is one of the funniest things I've read in a good while. My favorite part was the simple "there is nothing funny about katanas." :clap:
WackyOne 04-01-07, 07:12 PM	You should note, by the way, that Raging and Dancing Mongoose work fine with Spring Attack, generating quite a bit more attacks (and more with the PHB2 feats)