Spring Attack problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spring Attack problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
battlejunk
05-13-07, 05:39 PM we ran into a strange problem with the "Spring Attack" feat in our ongoing campaign, which has us dumbfounded.

Here is the setup - Character with "Spring Attack" moves forward from her initial position, into a square already occupuied by her ranger ally (who acts on a differeing Iniative ), strikes at an enemy from that particular square ( the only square it is possble to strike from at the enemy), and moves back to her initial square. All of this with a move equal to her normal speed, including adjustments for terrain/occupied squares.

The big question is - can a character enter an occupied square, attack from that position (which she could not normally occupy according to the PHB and the RAW ) and move on back into her original position ?

The chincher seems to be - she cannot _end_ her move in the occupied square, nor could she otherwise take any action in it, unless her ally was on the ground out or helpless. But can she attack from said position with "Spring Attack" ?

Any feedback is appreciated - something backed up by the rules even more so !

thx
Azog_the_Firvin
05-13-07, 06:00 PM You could apply the rules for squeezing. That's actually a pretty clever way to use Spring Attack, though.
hunterc311
05-13-07, 06:10 PM You could apply the rules for squeezing. That's actually a pretty clever way to use Spring Attack, though.

No, you -should- apply the rules for squeezing. That's what they are there for. ;) Remember that nobody is acting "before" anyone else during combat; initiative is just a game mechanic to control combat. Everything is still happening at the same time over the course of each 6-second period. The ranger is allowing the spring attacker to move through his square (a normal game mechanic) but the spring attacker is taking an attack action while in that square, so the -2 penalty on their attack roll should be applied because she is squeezing into a space that is smaller than she can normally move through (due to the ranger's presence in that space) and attempt an attack action while in that space.
Dark1ord
05-13-07, 06:20 PM bear with me for a moment as I copy/paste some of the rules (I haven't seen anything on this, faq-wise):

"Moving through a Square
Friend
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging."

"Ending Your Movement
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless."

Spring Attack:
"When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed." - "You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack."

Squeezing:
"A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square."

I'd say it all boils down to whether we should consider the movement before and efter the attack as "ended" or not - the fact that you're actually doing something distinct inbetween, namely attacking, seems to suggest it should actually be considered two moves...
Alvoros Darkleaf
05-13-07, 06:58 PM Original post deleted...did not read the question properly.

Edited post...agree that the attack should work, albeit at the -4 penalty to the attack, and -4 AC should anyone get an attack on the spring attacker while in that square.

Alvo
Nathreet
05-13-07, 07:34 PM Seems legal both rules-wise and reality-wise. I'd apply the -2 AB for squeezing and call it a day.
Dheran
05-13-07, 11:22 PM I'd say it all boils down to whether we should consider the movement before and efter the attack as "ended" or not - the fact that you're actually doing something distinct inbetween, namely attacking, seems to suggest it should actually be considered two moves... I've got to disagree with this. Spring Attack lets you split a move action in two, but it doesn't give you extra movement. The movement is only ended when you finish the second part of your single move action.

I do agree that the melee attack should suffer the -4 penalty for squeezing. Also remember that you've got to count this square twice, so your total movement will be reduced.
tarkin
05-14-07, 10:36 AM 1. You can not end your turn in a square that requires squeezing.

2. If you are squeezing, you have penalty to attack of -4, not -2. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

3. Therefore there must be SOME case where you can be squeezing and attack.

4. Is this not that case? Otherwise when could you be squeezing and attack?
jaelis
05-14-07, 11:29 AM 1. You can not end your turn in a square that requires squeezing.

I don't think that's true... you could squeeze through and even fight in a long narrow passage. You can't end your turn in another character's square, but that's not the only time you squeeze.

Given that the rules say you only have to squeeze to move through an opponent's square, it doesn't sound to me like the -4 penalty is required. It seems like a reasonable thing for a DM to impose, as does a simple -2 circumstance penalty. But I'd say by RAW the tactic works with no penalty.

(A related question: if a character were just taking a normal move to pass through a friendly creatures square, and drew an AoO, would you impose the squeezing AC penalty?)
The_Ditto
05-14-07, 11:34 AM I think this quote is key:

Squeezing:
"A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square."

When you spring attack, you are ending your movement prior to your attack .. (yes, you have more movement and get to "move again" after your attack .. but it does end ... )

I think the rules are quite clear in this: No you cannot spring attack "into" a square occupied by another creature and attack ... yes, you can "move through" another creature (supposedly an ally - but I suppose tumble could allow you move through an enemy square) and then attack ...

Spring attack doesn't allow you to "break the rules" beyond what it indicates which is simply:
Move before and after your attack.
Mechanically it's more similar to two seperate move actions then it is to a single move action interrupted by an attack ... ;) (Spring Attack even tells us this by telling us we move before the attack, and after the attack ...)
jaelis
05-14-07, 11:37 AM I guess it depends on whether you think you need to stop momentarily to make your attack in a spring attack, or whether it lets you attack while continuing your movement. (In the second case, your movement doesn't "end" in the middle.)

I'd say the later, but it would have to be a DM call.
Dheran
05-14-07, 02:02 PM Squeezing

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square. As tarkin has pointed out, it's got to be possible to attack while squeezing. Perhaps the key is that the quote above means that you can't end your movement in an enemy-occupied square, but can attack while squeezing through a square occupied by an ally. (I think a requirement to work on D&D books is a flair for tortured syntax.)

Thoughts?
battlejunk
05-14-07, 03:12 PM Well, you can of course squeeze into a square of less than 5' width (say a narrow passage or a window ), not to mention enlarging yourself in a 5' wide passage and suddenly requiring 10' of space like an ogre.

Hence the "attacking while squeezing" entry, and its stiff penalties

As for the movement ending - spring attack is not "run by attack", analogous to "fly-by-attack". And "back-and-forth" movement for one requires coming to a full-stop, and reversing direction. Which would indicate an end of movement, and a resumption after the attack.

Also I find it indicative that DnD commonly does not allow attacks in between movements, but rather either before or after it. Which to my mind means the following squence of events for "Spring Attack" :

partial movement
stopping in position to attack
attacking
partial movment

which, in the scenario in question, would mean stopping in an occupied square. Which is not permissible.....

Extraordinary, in a way, that this has never come up before or been posted to the Sage or whatever...
darkeness
05-14-07, 03:31 PM I think the rules are quite clear in this
If the rules were clear there would be no debate on the issue.;) That said I do agree with your interpretation.

For flavor reasons here is what I would probably rule in-game: If the attack occured while the character was moving in a fairly striaght line I would allow it because it is kinda like a run-by type if atttack with a quick slash of his weapon. However, if the attacker has to move forward, stop, attack, and then move back away from the enemy I would probably not allow it for the reasons given by Ditto & battlejunk. It might seem unfair or inconsistant the way I would rule, but I think it works better for flavor and storytelling.
DarkRhystar
05-14-07, 03:49 PM I've got to disagree with this. Spring Attack lets you split a move action in two, but it doesn't give you extra movement. The movement is only ended when you finish the second part of your single move action.

(yes, you have more movement and get to "move again" after your attack .. but it does end ... )

Spring attack doesn't allow you to "break the rules" beyond what it indicates which is simply:
Move before and after your attack.
Mechanically it's more similar to two seperate move actions then it is to a single move action interrupted by an attack ... ;) (Spring Attack even tells us this by telling us we move before the attack, and after the attack ...)

Dheran has the right here.

Spring Attack is a move action and standard action combined, not 2 move actions and a standard action combined.
Soceus
05-15-07, 05:48 PM Quick question... what ever happened to "Sharing a square?" With the - to ac, and attack rolls?
Lucas Blackstone
05-15-07, 06:36 PM Sounds like to me that people are confusing the real world action of physically stopping and changing direction with the in game term of ending your movement. The way the rule reads to me is that ending your movement is when your move action is done that round. They are referring to specific game terminology. But to those naysayers who believe otherwise there isn't any reason to think you would have to stop moving anyway during a spring attack. If anything, the logical assumption is that you are always in motion during the spring attack. You're running/leaping/moving up to someone and swinging while moving by them. During this movement you are picking a time to attack. You don't actually stop.

After rereading the feat I don't see anything that says you are stopping to make the attack, then moving again with the same move action.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
battlejunk 05-13-07, 05:39 PM	we ran into a strange problem with the "Spring Attack" feat in our ongoing campaign, which has us dumbfounded. Here is the setup - Character with "Spring Attack" moves forward from her initial position, into a square already occupuied by her ranger ally (who acts on a differeing Iniative ), strikes at an enemy from that particular square ( the only square it is possble to strike from at the enemy), and moves back to her initial square. All of this with a move equal to her normal speed, including adjustments for terrain/occupied squares. The big question is - can a character enter an occupied square, attack from that position (which she could not normally occupy according to the PHB and the RAW ) and move on back into her original position ? The chincher seems to be - she cannot _end_ her move in the occupied square, nor could she otherwise take any action in it, unless her ally was on the ground out or helpless. But can she attack from said position with "Spring Attack" ? Any feedback is appreciated - something backed up by the rules even more so ! thx
Azog_the_Firvin 05-13-07, 06:00 PM	You could apply the rules for squeezing. That's actually a pretty clever way to use Spring Attack, though.
hunterc311 05-13-07, 06:10 PM	You could apply the rules for squeezing. That's actually a pretty clever way to use Spring Attack, though. No, you -should- apply the rules for squeezing. That's what they are there for. ;) Remember that nobody is acting "before" anyone else during combat; initiative is just a game mechanic to control combat. Everything is still happening at the same time over the course of each 6-second period. The ranger is allowing the spring attacker to move through his square (a normal game mechanic) but the spring attacker is taking an attack action while in that square, so the -2 penalty on their attack roll should be applied because she is squeezing into a space that is smaller than she can normally move through (due to the ranger's presence in that space) and attempt an attack action while in that space.
Dark1ord 05-13-07, 06:20 PM	bear with me for a moment as I copy/paste some of the rules (I haven't seen anything on this, faq-wise): "Moving through a Square Friend You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging." "Ending Your Movement You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless." Spring Attack: "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed." - "You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack." Squeezing: "A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square." I'd say it all boils down to whether we should consider the movement before and efter the attack as "ended" or not - the fact that you're actually doing something distinct inbetween, namely attacking, seems to suggest it should actually be considered two moves...
Alvoros Darkleaf 05-13-07, 06:58 PM	Original post deleted...did not read the question properly. Edited post...agree that the attack should work, albeit at the -4 penalty to the attack, and -4 AC should anyone get an attack on the spring attacker while in that square. Alvo
Nathreet 05-13-07, 07:34 PM	Seems legal both rules-wise and reality-wise. I'd apply the -2 AB for squeezing and call it a day.
Dheran 05-13-07, 11:22 PM	I'd say it all boils down to whether we should consider the movement before and efter the attack as "ended" or not - the fact that you're actually doing something distinct inbetween, namely attacking, seems to suggest it should actually be considered two moves... I've got to disagree with this. Spring Attack lets you split a move action in two, but it doesn't give you extra movement. The movement is only ended when you finish the second part of your single move action. I do agree that the melee attack should suffer the -4 penalty for squeezing. Also remember that you've got to count this square twice, so your total movement will be reduced.
tarkin 05-14-07, 10:36 AM	1. You can not end your turn in a square that requires squeezing. 2. If you are squeezing, you have penalty to attack of -4, not -2. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC. 3. Therefore there must be SOME case where you can be squeezing and attack. 4. Is this not that case? Otherwise when could you be squeezing and attack?
jaelis 05-14-07, 11:29 AM	1. You can not end your turn in a square that requires squeezing. I don't think that's true... you could squeeze through and even fight in a long narrow passage. You can't end your turn in another character's square, but that's not the only time you squeeze. Given that the rules say you only have to squeeze to move through an opponent's square, it doesn't sound to me like the -4 penalty is required. It seems like a reasonable thing for a DM to impose, as does a simple -2 circumstance penalty. But I'd say by RAW the tactic works with no penalty. (A related question: if a character were just taking a normal move to pass through a friendly creatures square, and drew an AoO, would you impose the squeezing AC penalty?)
The_Ditto 05-14-07, 11:34 AM	I think this quote is key: Squeezing: "A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square." When you spring attack, you are ending your movement prior to your attack .. (yes, you have more movement and get to "move again" after your attack .. but it does end ... ) I think the rules are quite clear in this: No you cannot spring attack "into" a square occupied by another creature and attack ... yes, you can "move through" another creature (supposedly an ally - but I suppose tumble could allow you move through an enemy square) and then attack ... Spring attack doesn't allow you to "break the rules" beyond what it indicates which is simply: Move before and after your attack. Mechanically it's more similar to two seperate move actions then it is to a single move action interrupted by an attack ... ;) (Spring Attack even tells us this by telling us we move before the attack, and after the attack ...)
jaelis 05-14-07, 11:37 AM	I guess it depends on whether you think you need to stop momentarily to make your attack in a spring attack, or whether it lets you attack while continuing your movement. (In the second case, your movement doesn't "end" in the middle.) I'd say the later, but it would have to be a DM call.
Dheran 05-14-07, 02:02 PM	Squeezing A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square. As tarkin has pointed out, it's got to be possible to attack while squeezing. Perhaps the key is that the quote above means that you can't end your movement in an enemy-occupied square, but can attack while squeezing through a square occupied by an ally. (I think a requirement to work on D&D books is a flair for tortured syntax.) Thoughts?
battlejunk 05-14-07, 03:12 PM	Well, you can of course squeeze into a square of less than 5' width (say a narrow passage or a window ), not to mention enlarging yourself in a 5' wide passage and suddenly requiring 10' of space like an ogre. Hence the "attacking while squeezing" entry, and its stiff penalties As for the movement ending - spring attack is not "run by attack", analogous to "fly-by-attack". And "back-and-forth" movement for one requires coming to a full-stop, and reversing direction. Which would indicate an end of movement, and a resumption after the attack. Also I find it indicative that DnD commonly does not allow attacks in between movements, but rather either before or after it. Which to my mind means the following squence of events for "Spring Attack" : partial movement stopping in position to attack attacking partial movment which, in the scenario in question, would mean stopping in an occupied square. Which is not permissible..... Extraordinary, in a way, that this has never come up before or been posted to the Sage or whatever...
darkeness 05-14-07, 03:31 PM	I think the rules are quite clear in this If the rules were clear there would be no debate on the issue.;) That said I do agree with your interpretation. For flavor reasons here is what I would probably rule in-game: If the attack occured while the character was moving in a fairly striaght line I would allow it because it is kinda like a run-by type if atttack with a quick slash of his weapon. However, if the attacker has to move forward, stop, attack, and then move back away from the enemy I would probably not allow it for the reasons given by Ditto & battlejunk. It might seem unfair or inconsistant the way I would rule, but I think it works better for flavor and storytelling.
DarkRhystar 05-14-07, 03:49 PM	I've got to disagree with this. Spring Attack lets you split a move action in two, but it doesn't give you extra movement. The movement is only ended when you finish the second part of your single move action. (yes, you have more movement and get to "move again" after your attack .. but it does end ... ) Spring attack doesn't allow you to "break the rules" beyond what it indicates which is simply: Move before and after your attack. Mechanically it's more similar to two seperate move actions then it is to a single move action interrupted by an attack ... ;) (Spring Attack even tells us this by telling us we move before the attack, and after the attack ...) Dheran has the right here. Spring Attack is a move action and standard action combined, not 2 move actions and a standard action combined.
Soceus 05-15-07, 05:48 PM	Quick question... what ever happened to "Sharing a square?" With the - to ac, and attack rolls?
Lucas Blackstone 05-15-07, 06:36 PM	Sounds like to me that people are confusing the real world action of physically stopping and changing direction with the in game term of ending your movement. The way the rule reads to me is that ending your movement is when your move action is done that round. They are referring to specific game terminology. But to those naysayers who believe otherwise there isn't any reason to think you would have to stop moving anyway during a spring attack. If anything, the logical assumption is that you are always in motion during the spring attack. You're running/leaping/moving up to someone and swinging while moving by them. During this movement you are picking a time to attack. You don't actually stop. After rereading the feat I don't see anything that says you are stopping to make the attack, then moving again with the same move action.