Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StruckingFuggle 03-13-07, 04:39 PM	So, I thought I knew how spring attack worked, but looking over the feat, I realized it was a bit off. And now I'm not sure, exactly, how it works. o.O " When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor." Is it a full-round action? Is it a standard action? If its a standard action, why isn't it listed as such? If it's a full-round action, why can't I move up to my full speed? CAN I move and then spring attack? If its an attack action, what happens if I have iteratives? How should the feat be worded to prevent all this ambiguity?
cwslyclgh 03-13-07, 04:48 PM	when you use the spring attack feat, it allows you to take an attack (a specific standard action) at some point during your normal move action. why can't I move up to my full speed?I think you are reading it wrong, the feat says you can't move more then your full speed.. ei that is just clairifying that it doesn;t double your movement when using it. If its an attack action, what happens if I have iteratives?you never get more then one attack unless you take a full attack which is a full round action (meaning that you can't take a move action, so you can't spring attack).
jaelis 03-13-07, 04:57 PM	Yep, that's right.
StruckingFuggle 03-13-07, 05:10 PM	But - Where does it say that the "move and attack in the process" attack action is a special "attack action that counts as a standard action" (which is entirely different than an "attack action"), instead of an "attack action", which when you take a full attack action, you can make a number of equal to your number of attacks - same as grapple or trip or disarm or whatnot. Spring Attack is explicitly an attack action, not a standard action.
Vegepygmy 03-13-07, 05:15 PM	Is it a full-round action? Is it a standard action? If its a standard action, why isn't it listed as such?By the RAW, Spring Attack allows you to move up to your speed and attack as a standard (attack) action. This is not what was intended, however, and is a result of the rules having subtly changed from 3.0 (when a standard action included a move action) to 3.5 (when move actions were separated out) without making the necessary change to Spring Attack's wording. The intent of Spring Attack is that you move some portion of your speed (as a move action), attack (as a standard action), and then move another portion of your speed (finishing your move action). The total distance moved may be equal to, but cannot exceed, your speed (because it's one move action, with an attack somewhere in the middle). How should the feat be worded to prevent all this ambiguity?Maybe: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way requires a move action but does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.
Vegepygmy 03-13-07, 05:18 PM	Spring Attack is explicitly an attack action, not a standard action.The attack action is a standard action (see PHB, page 139). When you use the full attack action, you can make multiple attacks, but each attack is not an action; they are part of your single, full attack action.
WinDReiN 03-13-07, 05:20 PM	You can compare it with the Shot on the Run feat which is a standard action. That attack action is a some sort of 'blend in' action, a 'attack' which does not count for a regular action.
Crimson_Concerto 03-13-07, 05:32 PM	The attack made in the middle of a Spring Attack is an attack action, not a standard action. There is clarification in the FAQ as to what the difference is. Spring attack is basically intended to be a move action with an attack action in the middle.
cwslyclgh 03-13-07, 05:35 PM	an attack action is a standard action (of a specific type).
Crimson_Concerto 03-13-07, 05:41 PM	an attack action is a standard action (of a specific type). Yes, honey, I know that, usually that's true, but not all standard actions are attack actions. You can take an attack action during Spring Attack, not a standard action.
Crimson_Concerto 03-13-07, 05:42 PM	You can compare it with the Shot on the Run feat which is a standard action. That attack action is a some sort of 'blend in' action, a 'attack' which does not count for a regular action. Actually, Shot on the Run specifies an attack action as well, so no Manyshot, for example, which is a standard action.
Vegepygmy 03-13-07, 05:56 PM	Yes, honey, I know that...Don't blame cwslyclgh for correctly reading what you wrote. If you meant The attack made in the middle of a Spring Attack is an attack action, as well as a standard action, you should have written that. Honey.
Crimson_Concerto 03-13-07, 06:07 PM	Don't blame cwslyclgh for correctly reading what you wrote.I don't. I'm just saying he misinterpreted what I meant. I said that the attack made in the middle of a Spring Attack is an attack action, not a standard action, because you can't use a standard action during spring attack, only an attack action. Normally, the two take up the same amount of time, but not in this case, which is why I said so. If you meant The attack made in the middle of a Spring Attack is an attack action, as well as a standard action, you should have written that.I didn't mean that because it's NOT a standard action as well as an attack action. You can't just use any old standard action that happens to involve attacking, like Manyshot during Shot on the Run, for example. Honey.Don't get cute with me. :bored:
StruckingFuggle 03-13-07, 07:09 PM	By the RAW, Spring Attack allows you to move up to your speed and attack as a standard (attack) action. This is not what was intended, however, and is a result of the rules having subtly changed from 3.0 (when a standard action included a move action) to 3.5 (when move actions were separated out) without making the necessary change to Spring Attack's wording. The intent of Spring Attack is that you move some portion of your speed (as a move action), attack (as a standard action), and then move another portion of your speed (finishing your move action). The total distance moved may be equal to, but cannot exceed, your speed (because it's one move action, with an attack somewhere in the middle). Maybe: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way requires a move action but does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. So then what sort of action does it take to use? Standard, Move, or Full-Round? And would it be broken to allow a person, as a full-round action, to make a double move that functioned a spring attack?
cwslyclgh 03-13-07, 07:17 PM	in a round, you get a move action and a standard action (unless you opt to take a full round action, in which case you get a full round action and a 5-foot step). the spring attack feat allows you to start your move action, inturrupt it to take your standard action (which in the case of spring attack has to be a specific standard action, the Attack action), and then finish your movement. you still only get 1 move action and 1 standard action in the round.
Vegepygmy 03-13-07, 07:20 PM	So then what sort of action does it take to use? Standard, Move, or Full-Round?A standard action plus a move action. And would it be broken to allow a person, as a full-round action, to make a double move that functioned a spring attack?Broken? I don't know. But it's not what was intended.
Tsuul 03-13-07, 07:30 PM	How should the feat be worded to prevent all this ambiguity?It was reworded in the special edition of the 3.5 PHB. Send angry letters to WoTC for introducing Paid-For-Errata without updating the SRD, or producing free errata.
StruckingFuggle 03-13-07, 07:38 PM	in a round, you get a move action and a standard action (unless you opt to take a full round action, in which case you get a full round action and a 5-foot step). the spring attack feat allows you to start your move action, inturrupt it to take your standard action (which in the case of spring attack has to be a specific standard action, the Attack action), and then finish your movement. you still only get 1 move action and 1 standard action in the round. Huh. In THAT light, it seems kinda gimped unless you have, say, Haste, or are a high-level monk. And it makes something like Rapid Blitz seem almost unworkable. o.O I mean, now, you can get in to attack something with superior reach, BUT you still likely end up in position where, next round, he can full-attack you.
Vegepygmy 03-13-07, 08:06 PM	In THAT light, it seems kinda gimped unless you have, say, Haste, or are a high-level monk.All I can say is that my experience is quite different from your perception. :tiphat:
chucky 03-14-07, 08:38 AM	So can you do a manouver from the tomb of battle with a spring attack? AkA move 15 feet, do a mountain hammer, and then move another 15 feet?
WinDReiN 03-14-07, 08:49 AM	Yes you can use manouvers, make disarm, sunder or trip attacks while making a spring attack.
Big_Mac 03-14-07, 03:25 PM	I mean, now, you can get in to attack something with superior reach, BUT you still likely end up in position where, next round, he can full-attack you. You need to invest in movement. Haste does that for you, Dervish, Boots of speed and others. It is great for fighting Golem's that are slow. you run in hit it once and run away. Other large creatures too. You may take a full attack every other round but that is still better than a full attack and AoO. you could also get a reach weapon.
BloodDragon 03-14-07, 03:34 PM	On the note of Spring attack and Move action, Full action, etc. Can you do a charge attack and spring attack? When you charge you are using a melee weapon (whether it be unarmed, lance, sword, slam, etc...) so thats fine. However Spring Attack itself doesn't take a movement action, so does that qualify it for use with spring attack?
cwslyclgh 03-14-07, 04:26 PM	Can you do a charge attack and spring attack?no, a charge is its own kind of action, and it is a full round action.
Crimson_Concerto 03-14-07, 04:30 PM	Yes you can use manouvers, make disarm, sunder or trip attacks while making a spring attack. You can make disarm, sunder, trip, and similar attacks while using spring attack because those are all attack actions, if I remember correctly, but you CANNOT use ToB maneuvers, because none of them are attack actions. This is where the difference between allowing you to take an attack action and standard action matters. And as for BloodDragon's last question, cwslyclgh is correct. Charging is a full-round action, and so it cannot be combined with Spring Attack.
Matthew77 03-14-07, 04:33 PM	Yes you can use manouvers, make disarm, sunder or trip attacks while making a spring attack. I disagree on Maneuvers. Most Strike Maneuvers, such as Mountain Hammer require a Standard action. Spring attack does not allow any standard action, it only allows one specific standard action (the attack action). This is the same reason why you can't many shot with Shot on the Run. I agree that you could disarm, sunder or trip, because those all replace attacks, instead of requiring a Standard action.
WinDReiN 03-14-07, 06:35 PM	Maneuvers usualy take a swift action, and that is why I argued that they can be combined with SA. Those that take a move, standard or any other action other than a free action could not. It is a house rule, depending on the DM.
Crimson_Concerto 03-14-07, 06:46 PM	Maneuvers usualy take a swift action, and that is why I argued that they can be combined with SA.Actually, most maneuvers are strikes. In the case of boosts, sure, but I had assumed the person who asked was referring to strikes, which are always at least a standard action and thus incompatable with Spring Attack. This is not house rule. It is RAW.
Tonil 03-14-07, 08:21 PM	Actually, most maneuvers are strikes. I am not familar with the term "strike" action. Move, standard, swift...OK. Strikes I have not heard of before. Explain?
Crimson_Concerto 03-14-07, 10:20 PM	I am not familar with the term "strike" action. Move, standard, swift...OK. Strikes I have not heard of before. Explain? There are 4 different types of maneuvers: Boosts, Strikes, Counters, and Stances. Boosts are usually swift actions that act as self-buffs for a round. Strikes are maneuvers that attack. Theses are usually standard actions or full-round actions. Counters are just what they sound like, and they're usually immediate actions. Stances are a state that your character is permanantly in. They take a swift action to activate or switch between. None of the strike maneuvers are attack actions. They are all usually either sandard or full-round actions. Thus, you cannot use a maneuver that is a strike during a spring attack, even though strikes nomally include an attack. The majority of maneuvers are Strikes, not Boosts, and so the majority of maneuvers take a standard or full-round action to activate, not a swift action.
Tonil 03-14-07, 11:42 PM	There are 4 different types of maneuvers: Boosts, Strikes, Counters, and Stances. ...... Thanks Crimson. I was able to use your info and do some searching on the boards and web. Tome of Battle looks interesting. It looks like I have some more reading to do. Meanwhile, back at the thread...
dochigh 03-15-07, 10:10 AM	Getting technical.. What about Sping Attack + grapple? That is i move 10 feet, make a grapple check (fail) and then move away another 20 feet. Or move 10 feet, make a grapple check (success) and remain in grapple (for easy reference, lets say i have Impr.Grapple). Or 3rd option (which i doubt would be illegal): move 10 feet, make a grapple check (success) and move in grapple with the victim (move+attack+standard).
cwslyclgh 03-15-07, 10:21 AM	I'd have to say no on that, using the spring attack feat requires you to move both before and after the attack, grappling would make that situational (ei if the grapple was successful you could not be spring attacking, and should therefor have provoked AoO from the target is applicable, etc)
Vegepygmy 03-15-07, 11:53 AM	I disagree slightly with cwslyclgh. I think you could move 10 feet, and attempt to start a grapple as your attack, but if you succeeded in establishing a hold, you would not be able to maintain it. You would have to let go and move away. (If you failed to start the grapple, obviously there would be no problem.) If there were no way to start a grapple and still be able to move away afterwards, I would agree with cwslyclgh, but maintaining the grapple is optional, so there is a way to do what you're suggesting.
cwslyclgh 03-15-07, 11:55 AM	I actually thought of that, but then dismissed the idea because it seemed pretty pointless to me ;)
UnholyKitsune 03-18-07, 08:39 PM	With spring attack and two weapons, could you move, hit an enemy with the first weapon, move again, and then hit another enemy with the second? Or would I have to use both attacks on the first enemy?
Johannixx 03-18-07, 08:51 PM	With spring attack and two weapons, could you move, hit an enemy with the first weapon, move again, and then hit another enemy with the second? Or would I have to use both attacks on the first enemy? You only get one attack with Spring Attack, so you couldn't move, hit, move and hit again. Spring Attack is most useful with reach weapons. Say an orc moves adjacent to your glaive-wielding PC and attacks her. On her turn, she uses Spring Attack to move back 5', then takes a normal attack with the glaive, and continues back another 5'. Now that orc has to take a move action to close with the glaive-wielder again, and unless it has ranks in Tumble or some other way to do so, it'll provoke AoOs. Now the orc only gets one attack per round, but the glaive-wielder essentially gets two (one from Spring Attack, one from the AoO).
Frugal 03-19-07, 09:02 AM	The Tempest PrC does allow you to TWF with Spring Attack but I believe both attacks are made against the same target.
skywyze 03-19-07, 09:24 AM	The Tempest PrC does allow you to TWF with Spring Attack but I believe both attacks are made against the same target.Nope, it doesn't specify. I just looked it up. Assuming you use the Tempest from Complete Adventurer, you get to attack once with both weapons on any target you want and then move away. Quite good when combined with Rapid Blitz, etc.
DrMorganes 03-19-07, 09:30 AM	Getting technical.. What about Sping Attack + grapple? That is i move 10 feet, make a grapple check (fail) and then move away another 20 feet. Or move 10 feet, make a grapple check (success) and remain in grapple (for easy reference, lets say i have Impr.Grapple). Or 3rd option (which i doubt would be illegal): move 10 feet, make a grapple check (success) and move in grapple with the victim (move+attack+standard). I would say this would work if your target is smaller than you. Ferinstance, a kidnapper's "grab and run" could be interpreted to be a Spring Attack with a grapple in the middle. Obviously, this doesn't work between two Medium-sized adults, but could potentially work if the target is at least one size smaller than the attacker. I'd go on to say that if the attacker fails to pin the smaller target, then his turn ends immediately after the grapple check. Essentially this interrupts the Spring Attack, ending his move early. Thoughts?
Frugal 03-19-07, 09:40 AM	Nope, it doesn't specify. I just looked it up. Assuming you use the Tempest from Complete Adventurer, you get to attack once with both weapons on any target you want and then move away. Quite good when combined with Rapid Blitz, etc. Right, but spring attack only allows you 1 target, so both weapons are used on that target. Now with rapid blitz and bounding assault it's definitely cool because it seems you'd get the TWF on each target. But, without those feats you can't use 2 weapons and say, pick 2 targets, and hit 1 with 1 weapon and the other with your other weapon, which is what I meant.
dochigh 03-19-07, 10:17 AM	I actually thought of that, but then dismissed the idea because it seemed pretty pointless to me ;) Well, a monk with improved Grapple would make a grapple check and .. Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. .. it'd be +4 to your roll if against his size opponent (from d20srd). So instead of regular attackroll d20+Str+BAB it would d20+Str+BAB+4. The damage dealt would be the same. So SpringAttack with Ipr.Grapple would make you "hit" better :p Ok-ok. I know, it would be illogical and bending the rules. But it would be by the book, wouldn't it?
skywyze 03-19-07, 11:19 AM	Here's an interesting build: Warblade 9/Tempest 5. It's only level 14, but already you could do the following: Dual wield kukris (just as an example), and take the following feats: Two-weapon fighting, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Bounding Assault. Buy yourself Boots of Expeditious Retreat (assuming your DM allows those). Tactic: Use Dancing Mongoose (Boost) as a swift action. Now Spring Attack the enemy, hitting them as follows: 1 (Spring Attack) with main weapon, 1 (Bounding Assault) with main weapon at -5, 1 with offhand (Tempest) and 1 with Main AND Offhand for using Dancing Mongoose. None of these attacks take any sort of penatly for dual wielding, thanks to the Tempest class. Result: Character runs 30 feet into combat without provoking attacks of opportunity from the target, hits the enemy 5 times and runs 30 feet away. All at level 14. If you're a human, you might even be able to squeeze in Combat Reflexes and Hold the Line somewhere. That way you get a free attack on them when they charge you next round, as well. Did I do something wrong here? This seems very powerful. Edit: Attack bonuses without stats, enhancement bonuses or anything else (just BAB) would be as follows: +14/+14/+9 for main hand AND +14/+14 for the offhand
Frugal 03-19-07, 12:13 PM	Tactic: Use Dancing Mongoose (Boost) as a swift action. Now Spring Attack the enemy, hitting them as follows: 1 (Spring Attack) with main weapon, 1 (Bounding Assault) with main weapon at -5, 1 with offhand (Tempest) and 1 with Main AND Offhand for using Dancing Mongoose. None of these attacks take any sort of penatly for dual wielding, thanks to the Tempest class. I'm away from work but if memory serves, bounding assault requires specifying a 2nd target, I don't think you can specify the same target.
skywyze 03-19-07, 12:48 PM	I'm away from work but if memory serves, bounding assault requires specifying a 2nd target, I don't think you can specify the same target. You can use both attacks against one of the opponents targeted with this feat, or split your attacks between themSo you can pretty much choose.
Frugal 03-19-07, 01:46 PM	So you can pretty much choose. Sweet!
Merestil Haye 03-19-07, 02:28 PM	Getting technical.. What about Sping Attack + grapple? Or 3rd option (which i doubt would be illegal): move 10 feet, make a grapple check (success) and move in grapple with the victim (move+attack+standard).I hate to disagree with cwsyclgh and Vegepygmy, but your third option is not only perfectly legal, it is mandated. The Grapple rules state that if you successfully negotiate the AoO, touch attack and first grapple check, that you move into the victim's space - that or release him. Thus you fulfill the Spring Attack requirement to move at least 5' after the attack. Assuming that you are Small or larger, of course.
Vegepygmy 03-19-07, 04:23 PM	I hate to disagree with cwsyclgh and Vegepygmy, but your third option is not only perfectly legal, it is mandated. The Grapple rules state that if you successfully negotiate the AoO, touch attack and first grapple check, that you move into the victim's space - that or release him. Thus you fulfill the Spring Attack requirement to move at least 5' after the attack.It depends on how you interpret: Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target. IMO, since moving into the target's space "doesn't count as part of your movement in the round," it also doesn't satisfy Spring Attack's requirement that you move at least 5 feet after your attack. But there's enough wiggle room there for one to interpret it as Merestil does.