spring attack - Loop of contradictions?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

spring attack - Loop of contradictions?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheBuzz
08-18-07, 01:17 PM guys!

I have a problem with the spring attack feat and AoOs. Please be a bit patient with my question since I need time to explain myself.
Assume I have that feat and my base speed is 30.

situation 1:
let's say I'm adjactene to one opponent. There's only this one opponent, let's call him A. Now I move 10' away from him (i.e. to activate skirmish), then move another 10' right to be right next to him again and hit him. After that I move another 10' away.

In this case I don't provoke an AoO from that opponent at any time because A is the target of my spring attack! This I understand.

situation 2:
Same situation as before, only that now there's a second opponent, called B, through whose threatened area I move whith my 20' movement prior to my attack.

In this situation I provoke an AoO from B, but not from A.
This I understand as well.

for example, the situation might look like this:
view from top; first line is the start up, in each new line I have moved another 5' of movement. The AoO will take place inbetween line 3 and 4.
A is opponent A
B is opponent B
M is me, the one using spring attack
x is an empty field

BxxMA start off right next to A, B is 10' away
BxMxA this is how it looks after I moved 5'
BMxxA this is how it looks after I moved 10
BxMxA
BxxMA now I hit

And here comes the problem:
Assume B grapples or trips me with his AoO and thus I don't get to make my attack against A.
At this moment I pretty much have only walked away from A. I didn't attack him and thus the spring attack benefits can't be applied.
Suppose in the grapple (or when lying on the ground in the case of a trip) I drink a potion or so a similar option so that the withdraw option can't be applied. Then opponent A would be entitled an AoO against me for me leaving my first square. This AoO, however, would have to take place before B's AoO. Whith this retroacting alone I'm basically fine.
BUT, assume A grapples me with his AoO. Then B will not be entitled his AoO, since I will not be able to move to him. However, if B doesn't get his AoO to grapple me, then A is not gonna get his AoO as well...
We end up in an endless loop of contradictions. :confused:

What do you think on this?
How would you handle this problem?

The only solution to this that I can see is to not allow A to make an AoO in any case, no matter if my spring attack actually takes place or not. That, however, yould probably make spring attack stronger than intended.

PS. I think and hope I understand the spring attack rules correctly. If there's any mistake in my thinking, please let me know. Same if I didn't make myself clear and you need more explanation.

Cheers
BW0222
08-18-07, 01:50 PM TheBuzz,

Such situtations are easy to demonstrate. You don't need spring attack.

To make it easier, forget spring and pretend you are withdrawing. You move 5 feet away from a creature without an AoO (which is fine), but you then continue moving into some grease and then trip. You then stand up. Well, you haven't taken a withdrawl action -- you've taken a 10' move, and stood up. So, the creature should have had an AoO against you when you left his square... right?

Actually, no. Withdrawing is a full round action. You can't break it into smaller parts. When you declare that you are withdrawing, if you are prevented from completing that action (say tripped), your turn it over. You can't pretent it was a move and then a stand from prone. It was a withdrawl when you started the action, and it remains so. i.e. no "take backs".

Treat spring attack the exact same way. It isn't a move and an attack, nor a half-move attack and half-move. It is a full-round action in which you can move and attack. If the action is interupted, you must attempt to complete it. However, if that isn't possible, then the action is over.

In your case, you attempt a spring attack. Treat it as a single full-round action. Once you start it, that's all you can attempt. At some point if you are prevented from completing the action -- say tripped an unable to attack or continue moving -- your action is over. You can't say "that was just a move and now I'll stand up". It was a spring-attack, it just didn't work.
Vaelan
08-18-07, 03:37 PM You still took the Spring Attack action, you just got interrupted before you could make the attack. That doesn't mean that you retroactively provoke AoOs.
risner
08-20-07, 09:08 PM A number of corrections to your understanding:

1) You can't use skirmish to trace your steps. In other words, you can not move into a square that you have occupied during your move and still claim the "move 10 ft" benefit. So moving to the square to your west, them moving back into your square to your east (your original square) is illegal.

2) This is how it works:
a) You activate Spring Attack (which allows non AoO movement for target A.)
b) You move 5 ft and provoke from B, who successfully trips you.
c) You are prone in the square and your Spring Attack has ended.
TheBuzz
08-26-07, 10:01 AM Thanks for your answers, guys.
Your answers have pretty much solved all of my questions.

@rinser:
where do I find these limitations on the movement of skirmish? I can't find any word of that in the skirmish description.
Also, does it work the way that you are forbidden to move back into squares where you have been earlier this round,
or do these squares just not count for activating skirmish?
zorgling25
08-26-07, 10:15 AM Thanks for your answers, guys.
Your answers have pretty much solved all of my questions.

@rinser:
where do I find these limitations on the movement of skirmish? I can't find any word of that in the skirmish description.
Also, does it work the way that you are forbidden to move back into squares where you have been earlier this round,
or do these squares just not count for activating skirmish?

Its in the errata for Complete Adventurer, found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a).
Merestil Haye
08-26-07, 03:06 PM The only restriction the errata imposes on the use of Skirmish is that it cannot be used before the character has moved 10' away from his start point, and cannot use Skirmish while mounted. Once they have done that there is no restriction on where they move in the round. If they choose to move back where they started, the Skirmish bonuses still apply.

In any case, the OP devoted no thought to the possibility of moving round A and staying within his threatened area, which simultaneously negates AoOs and allows Skirmish damage.
tarkin
08-27-07, 10:36 AM Also note.

Even if I were to rule that when you fail to complete the Spring Attack you incure an AoO for movement, there is NO reason to claim that the AoO occures at the begining of the movement.

That is, here is what I would rule:
........e
A.....xB

A is me, the spring attacker. B is the target. x is where I go to hit B, 25 feet away from me. e is where I wish to end my turn.

The entire area is in fog.

B has a spiked chain.

Unbeknownst to me, x is dificult terrain. Crossing it takes an extra 5ft of movement, leaving me none left to move to e.

What happens is:

1. I go to x and begin to cross it. As I do, I say "oh crap"
2. I hit target B.
3. I fail to complete my Spring Attack by moving away.
4. At this point, target B takes an AoO against me for FAILING TO MOVE.
Nom
08-27-07, 04:25 PM Though if you can't see square X, B probably can't see you either and thus isn't eligible to make an AoO when you enter X.
jaelis
08-27-07, 04:51 PM Actually, I think there is technically an issue, that can be seen more simply than TheBuzz is putting it.

Say I start 15 ft away from the bad guy, who has 10 ft natural reach. I use spring attack to move up to him, thus provoking no AoO. Say I try to trip him but fail, and he counter trips me. Then I obviously can't move any further, but Spring Attack says I need to move after the attack to get the benefit of the feat. So technically, I should have drawn an AoO on my movement in the first place.

But really, who cares? I think the point is that as long as you intend to use Spring Attack properly, it works until it fails. The only possible abuse I can see is someone starting a Spring Attack and then refusing to finish it by moving after the attack. I can't see that as a real problem.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheBuzz 08-18-07, 01:17 PM	guys! I have a problem with the spring attack feat and AoOs. Please be a bit patient with my question since I need time to explain myself. Assume I have that feat and my base speed is 30. situation 1: let's say I'm adjactene to one opponent. There's only this one opponent, let's call him A. Now I move 10' away from him (i.e. to activate skirmish), then move another 10' right to be right next to him again and hit him. After that I move another 10' away. In this case I don't provoke an AoO from that opponent at any time because A is the target of my spring attack! This I understand. situation 2: Same situation as before, only that now there's a second opponent, called B, through whose threatened area I move whith my 20' movement prior to my attack. In this situation I provoke an AoO from B, but not from A. This I understand as well. for example, the situation might look like this: view from top; first line is the start up, in each new line I have moved another 5' of movement. The AoO will take place inbetween line 3 and 4. A is opponent A B is opponent B M is me, the one using spring attack x is an empty field BxxMA start off right next to A, B is 10' away BxMxA this is how it looks after I moved 5' BMxxA this is how it looks after I moved 10 BxMxA BxxMA now I hit And here comes the problem: Assume B grapples or trips me with his AoO and thus I don't get to make my attack against A. At this moment I pretty much have only walked away from A. I didn't attack him and thus the spring attack benefits can't be applied. Suppose in the grapple (or when lying on the ground in the case of a trip) I drink a potion or so a similar option so that the withdraw option can't be applied. Then opponent A would be entitled an AoO against me for me leaving my first square. This AoO, however, would have to take place before B's AoO. Whith this retroacting alone I'm basically fine. BUT, assume A grapples me with his AoO. Then B will not be entitled his AoO, since I will not be able to move to him. However, if B doesn't get his AoO to grapple me, then A is not gonna get his AoO as well... We end up in an endless loop of contradictions. :confused: What do you think on this? How would you handle this problem? The only solution to this that I can see is to not allow A to make an AoO in any case, no matter if my spring attack actually takes place or not. That, however, yould probably make spring attack stronger than intended. PS. I think and hope I understand the spring attack rules correctly. If there's any mistake in my thinking, please let me know. Same if I didn't make myself clear and you need more explanation. Cheers
BW0222 08-18-07, 01:50 PM	TheBuzz, Such situtations are easy to demonstrate. You don't need spring attack. To make it easier, forget spring and pretend you are withdrawing. You move 5 feet away from a creature without an AoO (which is fine), but you then continue moving into some grease and then trip. You then stand up. Well, you haven't taken a withdrawl action -- you've taken a 10' move, and stood up. So, the creature should have had an AoO against you when you left his square... right? Actually, no. Withdrawing is a full round action. You can't break it into smaller parts. When you declare that you are withdrawing, if you are prevented from completing that action (say tripped), your turn it over. You can't pretent it was a move and then a stand from prone. It was a withdrawl when you started the action, and it remains so. i.e. no "take backs". Treat spring attack the exact same way. It isn't a move and an attack, nor a half-move attack and half-move. It is a full-round action in which you can move and attack. If the action is interupted, you must attempt to complete it. However, if that isn't possible, then the action is over. In your case, you attempt a spring attack. Treat it as a single full-round action. Once you start it, that's all you can attempt. At some point if you are prevented from completing the action -- say tripped an unable to attack or continue moving -- your action is over. You can't say "that was just a move and now I'll stand up". It was a spring-attack, it just didn't work.
Vaelan 08-18-07, 03:37 PM	You still took the Spring Attack action, you just got interrupted before you could make the attack. That doesn't mean that you retroactively provoke AoOs.
risner 08-20-07, 09:08 PM	A number of corrections to your understanding: 1) You can't use skirmish to trace your steps. In other words, you can not move into a square that you have occupied during your move and still claim the "move 10 ft" benefit. So moving to the square to your west, them moving back into your square to your east (your original square) is illegal. 2) This is how it works: a) You activate Spring Attack (which allows non AoO movement for target A.) b) You move 5 ft and provoke from B, who successfully trips you. c) You are prone in the square and your Spring Attack has ended.
TheBuzz 08-26-07, 10:01 AM	Thanks for your answers, guys. Your answers have pretty much solved all of my questions. @rinser: where do I find these limitations on the movement of skirmish? I can't find any word of that in the skirmish description. Also, does it work the way that you are forbidden to move back into squares where you have been earlier this round, or do these squares just not count for activating skirmish?
zorgling25 08-26-07, 10:15 AM	Thanks for your answers, guys. Your answers have pretty much solved all of my questions. @rinser: where do I find these limitations on the movement of skirmish? I can't find any word of that in the skirmish description. Also, does it work the way that you are forbidden to move back into squares where you have been earlier this round, or do these squares just not count for activating skirmish? Its in the errata for Complete Adventurer, found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a).
Merestil Haye 08-26-07, 03:06 PM	The only restriction the errata imposes on the use of Skirmish is that it cannot be used before the character has moved 10' away from his start point, and cannot use Skirmish while mounted. Once they have done that there is no restriction on where they move in the round. If they choose to move back where they started, the Skirmish bonuses still apply. In any case, the OP devoted no thought to the possibility of moving round A and staying within his threatened area, which simultaneously negates AoOs and allows Skirmish damage.
tarkin 08-27-07, 10:36 AM	Also note. Even if I were to rule that when you fail to complete the Spring Attack you incure an AoO for movement, there is NO reason to claim that the AoO occures at the begining of the movement. That is, here is what I would rule: ........e A.....xB A is me, the spring attacker. B is the target. x is where I go to hit B, 25 feet away from me. e is where I wish to end my turn. The entire area is in fog. B has a spiked chain. Unbeknownst to me, x is dificult terrain. Crossing it takes an extra 5ft of movement, leaving me none left to move to e. What happens is: 1. I go to x and begin to cross it. As I do, I say "oh crap" 2. I hit target B. 3. I fail to complete my Spring Attack by moving away. 4. At this point, target B takes an AoO against me for FAILING TO MOVE.
Nom 08-27-07, 04:25 PM	Though if you can't see square X, B probably can't see you either and thus isn't eligible to make an AoO when you enter X.
jaelis 08-27-07, 04:51 PM	Actually, I think there is technically an issue, that can be seen more simply than TheBuzz is putting it. Say I start 15 ft away from the bad guy, who has 10 ft natural reach. I use spring attack to move up to him, thus provoking no AoO. Say I try to trip him but fail, and he counter trips me. Then I obviously can't move any further, but Spring Attack says I need to move after the attack to get the benefit of the feat. So technically, I should have drawn an AoO on my movement in the first place. But really, who cares? I think the point is that as long as you intend to use Spring Attack properly, it works until it fails. The only possible abuse I can see is someone starting a Spring Attack and then refusing to finish it by moving after the attack. I can't see that as a real problem.