Spring Attack: How does it work? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spring Attack: How does it work? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fleetfang
06-08-07, 01:44 AM Tonight my gang and I got into a debate about how Spring Attack works. To me it seems plainly obvious how the feat is intended to work. Some of my friends seem just as adamantly confident that it works another way.

Please offer some help to me on this, as the FAQ does not seem to address it.

Which of these is the correct reading of the feat's effect?...

1) Let's assume a melee attacker, Regdar, with a 30' move and the Spring Attack feat. There's an orc 45' away from him. Regdar uses his move action to move 30-feet closer to the orc, which is now only 15 feet away. He then uses his attack action to spring attack 15 feet in, he attacks the orc, and then springs back out 15 feet.
-- His attack action (the spring attack) consists of no more movement before and after the attack than his total movement (30). The move action that he takes is considered a separate action.

2) Same situation, with the orc 15 feet away. Redgar Spring attacks in 15 feet, attacks, and springs out 15 feet. His turn is now over because he has made an attack and moved a total equal to his base land speed.
-- The Spring Attack feat just allows him to insert his attack in the middle of his movement for the round.

I thought myself that the answer to this is self evident, but apparently it is not, so even if it seems obvious to you, please sound off.

Or better yet, if anyone has a Sage Advice or FAQ ruling that they can point me and my group to, THAT would be greatly appreciated, as well.

Thanks in advance for the assistance,
Ff
Crimson_Concerto
06-08-07, 01:49 AM This problem has come up a few times on these boards, but the correct answer is #2.
I'm pretty sure it's in the FAQ if you look under feats.
sensestaker
06-08-07, 02:02 AM I also vote for #2, That's how my groups always play it. Version #1 is basically taking a move action and a full attack action, which is a no-no (unless you're hasted)
Crimson_Concerto
06-08-07, 02:08 AM I also vote for #2, That's how my groups always play it. Version #1 is basically taking a move action and a full attack action, which is a no-no (unless you're hasted)

Haste doesn't do that.
Also, there are plenty of ways to get a move action and full attack, but Spring Attack certainly isn't one of them (and neither is Haste).
cwslyclgh
06-08-07, 02:19 AM #2 is correct, all spring attack does is allows you to instert a single attack someplace in your move action (and prevents AoO from the opponent you attack due to your movement).
goawayugh
06-08-07, 07:46 AM #2.

...provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

If you do #1 then your total distance moved is 60' (greater than your speed).
jaelis
06-08-07, 07:56 AM Another vote for 2.

It is indeed confusing:

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack,

since it sounds like you move as part of the attack action. But if you look closely it doesn't really say that. It says that when you attack you can also move, but that doesn't mean the movement doesn't take an action of its own.

Compare to: "When you go to the store, you can get some gas." That doesn't necessarily mean that you can get gas at the store... you still have to go to the gas station.
Frugal
06-08-07, 11:18 AM Another vote for #2 but I agree that it would be better worded if it said something like, "as a full round action you may move, perform a melee attack and then move again, the total distance moved cannot be more than your move speed."
BW0222
06-08-07, 12:53 PM Frugal,

Another vote for #2 but I agree that it would be better worded if it said something like, "as a full round action you may move, perform a melee attack and then move again, the total distance moved cannot be more than your move speed."

Accept this isn't isn't quite correct. This would make spring attack a single action. It would preclude say drawing a weapon as part of that move.
Suin Bahhar
06-08-07, 01:09 PM Or using it in the surprize round.
Fleetfang
06-08-07, 05:50 PM So... wait. Can you spring attack in a surprise round?
DungeonMogrii
06-08-07, 06:19 PM As a DM I would not let you do that, the spring attack feat lets you combine your move action and a satndard action to attack in a special way, but it still takes both actions in any given round. So no, no spring attack in a surprise round.

Also, remember that in order to use spring attack you need to move both before and after the attack at least 5'.
Frugal
06-08-07, 07:21 PM As a DM I would not let you do that, the spring attack feat lets you combine your move action and a satndard action to attack in a special way, but it still takes both actions in any given round. So no, no spring attack in a surprise round.

Also, remember that in order to use spring attack you need to move both before and after the attack at least 5'.

Agreed, it requires both actions, since you only get a partial action in a surprise round it wouldn't work.
Frugal
06-08-07, 07:24 PM Accept this isn't isn't quite correct. This would make spring attack a single action. It would preclude say drawing a weapon as part of that move.

Well, it says you can draw as a free action, "as part of a regular move," so that could still apply.
Crimson_Concerto
06-09-07, 12:21 AM Well, it says you can draw as a free action, "as part of a regular move," so that could still apply.Yeah, the way spring attack currently works you could indeed draw a weapon as part of the move, but what he was trying to say was that if Spring Attack were specifically made into a full-round action to excecute completely, it wouldn't be possible.
sensestaker
06-09-07, 12:55 AM Haste doesn't do that.
Also, there are plenty of ways to get a move action and full attack, but Spring Attack certainly isn't one of them (and neither is Haste).

Is Haste another thing that got watered down for 3.5? If it is, disregard what I said about Haste letting you do that, and sorry that I'm out of touch, but I'm still rockin' 3.0 (3.25, actually :P )
Fleetfang
06-09-07, 01:23 AM Okay, so I'm not extraordinarily biased. It seems that everyone who has posted here agrees with my viewpoint. Unfortunately, I don't know if the other guys in my group will see it this way, even with the unanimous opinion voiced here.

Is there ANYONE in this online community who thinks that a PC with a base move of 30 can use spring attack to get an attack AND still move more than 30 feet in a single round?
Has anyone ever seen an experienced judge adjudicate it that way?

Like I said, I'm trying to get as large a concensus as possible, since (despite their considerable experience) my friends are extremely adamant in their belief that since Dodge and Mobility are pretty sucky feats that Spring Attack ought to be uber-awesome (moreso than it already would be by the popular "#2" interpretation in my original post).

Thanks again for all the help.
cwslyclgh
06-09-07, 01:45 AM Has anyone ever seen an experienced judge adjudicate it that way?No, I have not.
Crimson_Concerto
06-09-07, 03:17 AM Fleetfang, whether your friends like it or not, they're wrong. Whether they believe you or any of us or not, they're still wrong. If nothing else, at least now you really do know that you are right and they are wrong, and if you're a horrible person just like I am, you'll take great internal joy at that. :D
Geogoose
06-09-07, 04:12 AM It is quite clear Spring Attack will not grant you additional movement or actions.

#2 is correct.
Merestil Haye
06-09-07, 06:26 AM Spring Attack lets you take an attack action at some point in the middle of taking a move action.

Compare this with the wording of the Mobile Spellcasting feat (CAdv p111).If the check succeeds, you can cast the spell and move up to your speed as a special standard action.This is the sort of language that would be necessary if a character could move and attack as a standard action. That language is not present, thus using Spring Attack is not a standard action.
Frugal
06-09-07, 01:54 PM Yeah, the way spring attack currently works you could indeed draw a weapon as part of the move, but what he was trying to say was that if Spring Attack were specifically made into a full-round action to excecute completely, it wouldn't be possible.

I understand what you're saying, but as I said, the wording doesn't say as part of a move action (there are other move actions which you can't draw a weapon during) it says as part of regular movement, which I would argue still qualifies if Spring Attack were reworded to be a full-round action.
Nephlite
06-09-07, 02:04 PM Like I said, I'm trying to get as large a concensus as possible, since (despite their considerable experience) my friends are extremely adamant in their belief that since Dodge and Mobility are pretty sucky feats that Spring Attack ought to be uber-awesome (moreso than it already would be by the popular "#2" interpretation in my original post).

Thanks again for all the help.
Your friends are wrong.

Mobility isn't sucky: +4 AC is never bad.

But Dodge sucks if one target: if it instead gave +1 against all and +1 more against a single opponent: Now it is great. (and this wording works bewcaue dodge bonuses stack)

W00t, Combine Mobility with Binding Paimon's Dance of Death: you get to move by each opponent and make 1 attack on them (this provokes as normal from movement)
Now that +4 AC is awesome.
Pentar
06-09-07, 03:52 PM Add one more to the list of: "Your friends are wrong!"

Spring attack is really good - they're just trying to make it absolutely broken. Now thus armed with the truth, go forth and crush them with your mind.
royinator
06-09-07, 04:14 PM Dodge, mobility, and Spring Attack are good. In addition to the added AC and ability to move b4 and after an attack, they're pre-reqs for Whirlwind Attack.
Kalarus
06-09-07, 08:42 PM And yet again, just because I feel like emphasising it, "Your friends are wrong".

Truth is not a democracy.
Crimson_Concerto
06-10-07, 02:04 AM Truth is not a democracy.

Quoted for EPIC amounts of truth! :clap:
Lord_Zeb
06-10-07, 03:27 AM Your friends are wrong.

Mobility isn't sucky: +4 AC is never bad.

But Dodge sucks if one target: if it instead gave +1 against all and +1 more against a single opponent: Now it is great. (and this wording works bewcaue dodge bonuses stack)

W00t, Combine Mobility with Binding Paimon's Dance of Death: you get to move by each opponent and make 1 attack on them (this provokes as normal from movement)
Now that +4 AC is awesome.

Think Mobility is not that good... +4 AC vs Attacks of opportunity? Well, maybe one should add something else, like granting ability to use Tumble at full speed without adding +10 to DC when avoiding hits. OR just grant the +4 bonus not only to AC vs AoO but to Tumble checks to avoid AoO too.

Dodge improved that way would be too good though. Would be better to just have Dodge as they modified it in DDOnline: Grant +1 Dexbased AC bonus. No assigning of anyone one dodge in particular will speed up the game and make the feat easier to use. And, for compability: Let the Swashbuckler Dodge-like bonus be stackable with it and work in the same way. And let it be actually added to the Dex-based part of AC so that it is limited by armor, so that Dodgers will be forced to use lighter armor to make use of the feat.

As for Spring-attack above:
Main thing is that you avoid AoO with it if you move a lot around a specific attacker. It grants a load of mobility in combat. So it's #2. (And the way they integrated that in DDOnline where they removed AoO, was that everyone that moves more than 5 feet gains -4 to hit for a second or so (their equivalent of a Round) unless they have Spring-attack feat.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fleetfang 06-08-07, 01:44 AM	Tonight my gang and I got into a debate about how Spring Attack works. To me it seems plainly obvious how the feat is intended to work. Some of my friends seem just as adamantly confident that it works another way. Please offer some help to me on this, as the FAQ does not seem to address it. Which of these is the correct reading of the feat's effect?... 1) Let's assume a melee attacker, Regdar, with a 30' move and the Spring Attack feat. There's an orc 45' away from him. Regdar uses his move action to move 30-feet closer to the orc, which is now only 15 feet away. He then uses his attack action to spring attack 15 feet in, he attacks the orc, and then springs back out 15 feet. -- His attack action (the spring attack) consists of no more movement before and after the attack than his total movement (30). The move action that he takes is considered a separate action. 2) Same situation, with the orc 15 feet away. Redgar Spring attacks in 15 feet, attacks, and springs out 15 feet. His turn is now over because he has made an attack and moved a total equal to his base land speed. -- The Spring Attack feat just allows him to insert his attack in the middle of his movement for the round. I thought myself that the answer to this is self evident, but apparently it is not, so even if it seems obvious to you, please sound off. Or better yet, if anyone has a Sage Advice or FAQ ruling that they can point me and my group to, THAT would be greatly appreciated, as well. Thanks in advance for the assistance, Ff
Crimson_Concerto 06-08-07, 01:49 AM	This problem has come up a few times on these boards, but the correct answer is #2. I'm pretty sure it's in the FAQ if you look under feats.
sensestaker 06-08-07, 02:02 AM	I also vote for #2, That's how my groups always play it. Version #1 is basically taking a move action and a full attack action, which is a no-no (unless you're hasted)
Crimson_Concerto 06-08-07, 02:08 AM	I also vote for #2, That's how my groups always play it. Version #1 is basically taking a move action and a full attack action, which is a no-no (unless you're hasted) Haste doesn't do that. Also, there are plenty of ways to get a move action and full attack, but Spring Attack certainly isn't one of them (and neither is Haste).
cwslyclgh 06-08-07, 02:19 AM	#2 is correct, all spring attack does is allows you to instert a single attack someplace in your move action (and prevents AoO from the opponent you attack due to your movement).
goawayugh 06-08-07, 07:46 AM	#2. ...provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. If you do #1 then your total distance moved is 60' (greater than your speed).
jaelis 06-08-07, 07:56 AM	Another vote for 2. It is indeed confusing: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, since it sounds like you move as part of the attack action. But if you look closely it doesn't really say that. It says that when you attack you can also move, but that doesn't mean the movement doesn't take an action of its own. Compare to: "When you go to the store, you can get some gas." That doesn't necessarily mean that you can get gas at the store... you still have to go to the gas station.
Frugal 06-08-07, 11:18 AM	Another vote for #2 but I agree that it would be better worded if it said something like, "as a full round action you may move, perform a melee attack and then move again, the total distance moved cannot be more than your move speed."
BW0222 06-08-07, 12:53 PM	Frugal, Another vote for #2 but I agree that it would be better worded if it said something like, "as a full round action you may move, perform a melee attack and then move again, the total distance moved cannot be more than your move speed." Accept this isn't isn't quite correct. This would make spring attack a single action. It would preclude say drawing a weapon as part of that move.
Suin Bahhar 06-08-07, 01:09 PM	Or using it in the surprize round.
Fleetfang 06-08-07, 05:50 PM	So... wait. Can you spring attack in a surprise round?
DungeonMogrii 06-08-07, 06:19 PM	As a DM I would not let you do that, the spring attack feat lets you combine your move action and a satndard action to attack in a special way, but it still takes both actions in any given round. So no, no spring attack in a surprise round. Also, remember that in order to use spring attack you need to move both before and after the attack at least 5'.
Frugal 06-08-07, 07:21 PM	As a DM I would not let you do that, the spring attack feat lets you combine your move action and a satndard action to attack in a special way, but it still takes both actions in any given round. So no, no spring attack in a surprise round. Also, remember that in order to use spring attack you need to move both before and after the attack at least 5'. Agreed, it requires both actions, since you only get a partial action in a surprise round it wouldn't work.
Frugal 06-08-07, 07:24 PM	Accept this isn't isn't quite correct. This would make spring attack a single action. It would preclude say drawing a weapon as part of that move. Well, it says you can draw as a free action, "as part of a regular move," so that could still apply.
Crimson_Concerto 06-09-07, 12:21 AM	Well, it says you can draw as a free action, "as part of a regular move," so that could still apply.Yeah, the way spring attack currently works you could indeed draw a weapon as part of the move, but what he was trying to say was that if Spring Attack were specifically made into a full-round action to excecute completely, it wouldn't be possible.
sensestaker 06-09-07, 12:55 AM	Haste doesn't do that. Also, there are plenty of ways to get a move action and full attack, but Spring Attack certainly isn't one of them (and neither is Haste). Is Haste another thing that got watered down for 3.5? If it is, disregard what I said about Haste letting you do that, and sorry that I'm out of touch, but I'm still rockin' 3.0 (3.25, actually :P )
Fleetfang 06-09-07, 01:23 AM	Okay, so I'm not extraordinarily biased. It seems that everyone who has posted here agrees with my viewpoint. Unfortunately, I don't know if the other guys in my group will see it this way, even with the unanimous opinion voiced here. Is there ANYONE in this online community who thinks that a PC with a base move of 30 can use spring attack to get an attack AND still move more than 30 feet in a single round? Has anyone ever seen an experienced judge adjudicate it that way? Like I said, I'm trying to get as large a concensus as possible, since (despite their considerable experience) my friends are extremely adamant in their belief that since Dodge and Mobility are pretty sucky feats that Spring Attack ought to be uber-awesome (moreso than it already would be by the popular "#2" interpretation in my original post). Thanks again for all the help.
cwslyclgh 06-09-07, 01:45 AM	Has anyone ever seen an experienced judge adjudicate it that way?No, I have not.
Crimson_Concerto 06-09-07, 03:17 AM	Fleetfang, whether your friends like it or not, they're wrong. Whether they believe you or any of us or not, they're still wrong. If nothing else, at least now you really do know that you are right and they are wrong, and if you're a horrible person just like I am, you'll take great internal joy at that. :D
Geogoose 06-09-07, 04:12 AM	It is quite clear Spring Attack will not grant you additional movement or actions. #2 is correct.
Merestil Haye 06-09-07, 06:26 AM	Spring Attack lets you take an attack action at some point in the middle of taking a move action. Compare this with the wording of the Mobile Spellcasting feat (CAdv p111).If the check succeeds, you can cast the spell and move up to your speed as a special standard action.This is the sort of language that would be necessary if a character could move and attack as a standard action. That language is not present, thus using Spring Attack is not a standard action.
Frugal 06-09-07, 01:54 PM	Yeah, the way spring attack currently works you could indeed draw a weapon as part of the move, but what he was trying to say was that if Spring Attack were specifically made into a full-round action to excecute completely, it wouldn't be possible. I understand what you're saying, but as I said, the wording doesn't say as part of a move action (there are other move actions which you can't draw a weapon during) it says as part of regular movement, which I would argue still qualifies if Spring Attack were reworded to be a full-round action.
Nephlite 06-09-07, 02:04 PM	Like I said, I'm trying to get as large a concensus as possible, since (despite their considerable experience) my friends are extremely adamant in their belief that since Dodge and Mobility are pretty sucky feats that Spring Attack ought to be uber-awesome (moreso than it already would be by the popular "#2" interpretation in my original post). Thanks again for all the help. Your friends are wrong. Mobility isn't sucky: +4 AC is never bad. But Dodge sucks if one target: if it instead gave +1 against all and +1 more against a single opponent: Now it is great. (and this wording works bewcaue dodge bonuses stack) W00t, Combine Mobility with Binding Paimon's Dance of Death: you get to move by each opponent and make 1 attack on them (this provokes as normal from movement) Now that +4 AC is awesome.
Pentar 06-09-07, 03:52 PM	Add one more to the list of: "Your friends are wrong!" Spring attack is really good - they're just trying to make it absolutely broken. Now thus armed with the truth, go forth and crush them with your mind.
royinator 06-09-07, 04:14 PM	Dodge, mobility, and Spring Attack are good. In addition to the added AC and ability to move b4 and after an attack, they're pre-reqs for Whirlwind Attack.
Kalarus 06-09-07, 08:42 PM	And yet again, just because I feel like emphasising it, "Your friends are wrong". Truth is not a democracy.
Crimson_Concerto 06-10-07, 02:04 AM	Truth is not a democracy. Quoted for EPIC amounts of truth! :clap:
Lord_Zeb 06-10-07, 03:27 AM	Your friends are wrong. Mobility isn't sucky: +4 AC is never bad. But Dodge sucks if one target: if it instead gave +1 against all and +1 more against a single opponent: Now it is great. (and this wording works bewcaue dodge bonuses stack) W00t, Combine Mobility with Binding Paimon's Dance of Death: you get to move by each opponent and make 1 attack on them (this provokes as normal from movement) Now that +4 AC is awesome. Think Mobility is not that good... +4 AC vs Attacks of opportunity? Well, maybe one should add something else, like granting ability to use Tumble at full speed without adding +10 to DC when avoiding hits. OR just grant the +4 bonus not only to AC vs AoO but to Tumble checks to avoid AoO too. Dodge improved that way would be too good though. Would be better to just have Dodge as they modified it in DDOnline: Grant +1 Dexbased AC bonus. No assigning of anyone one dodge in particular will speed up the game and make the feat easier to use. And, for compability: Let the Swashbuckler Dodge-like bonus be stackable with it and work in the same way. And let it be actually added to the Dex-based part of AC so that it is limited by armor, so that Dodgers will be forced to use lighter armor to make use of the feat. As for Spring-attack above: Main thing is that you avoid AoO with it if you move a lot around a specific attacker. It grants a load of mobility in combat. So it's #2. (And the way they integrated that in DDOnline where they removed AoO, was that everyone that moves more than 5 feet gains -4 to hit for a second or so (their equivalent of a Round) unless they have Spring-attack feat.)