Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orenmir 05-29-07, 11:49 AM	Could this really be possible? With Attack Focus, I give up my extra attack for a +4 on a full-round single attack... With Great Blow, this full round attack deals double damage... With Vicious Strike, I ready the whole action and wait for my spell-casting opponant to begin a spell -- on a successful hit, I deal another double damage... In the end, I get +4 attack and 3x damage! Anybody see any errors in the logic?
tarkin 05-29-07, 12:57 PM	Nope. You can't do it. Great Blow is a Full round attack. Vicious Strike require you to ready an action, which means it must be a Standard Action, not a Full Round.
Orenmir 05-29-07, 02:04 PM	What's the difference between a standard action and a full-round action? If my standard action takes a full-round, aren't they one in the same?
SolenVlos 05-29-07, 02:20 PM	If my standard action takes a full-round wow, that's totally what tarkin says about matter and anti-matter. a full round is a move action + a standard action or a move action + move action. so an action usually lasts a move action, a standard action or a full round.
tarkin 05-29-07, 02:20 PM	A Standard Action is one that you can do in a full round and still have time left to do any Move Equivelent Action (MEA) of your choice (in addition one immediate/swift action, AoO's, and some free free actions, possibly including a 5ft step if you don't otherwise move). An MEA is something like getting up from prone, or moving your full speed (30 ft), reading a shield for use, sheath a weapon, mount a horse, etc. A Full round action takes a bit more time (letting you do more stuff) but therefore does not allow you to take that Move Equivelent Action. Otherwise it is identical to the Standard Action. A Full Round Action is requried for certain things like taking multiple attacks (from a high bab or from two weapon fighting). Generally it is an intentional limiting factor to prevent people from doing too much in a single round, such as what you describe. I.E. They do things like "hm, I want a double damage blow, but that seems too powerfull, so I will make it a Full Round action.: A standard action is enough to cast most spells or make a single attack (no more than one, without rare, special feats).
Orenmir 05-29-07, 03:07 PM	Man -- Why does such an important feature of the game have to be so confusing? OK, please grade my test (keep in mind, I'm an Occult Slayer with 2 attacks per round)... WHAT CAN YOU DO DURING YOUR TURN? 1. Move 5', attack, attack (in any order) 2. Move 30', attack (in any order) 3. Move 30', move 30' 4. Move 5', attack (with attack focus +4) 5. Attack (with great blow - double damage) 6. Move 5', ready attack (for vicious strike)
tarkin 05-29-07, 03:17 PM	#5, Use a full round action to do a Great Blow, can also let you move 5ft that round. Otherwise I think you got it right. Also, the words "in any Order" apply to everything (your 5ft moves may come after your attacks if you so desire, or in between them.)
Orenmir 05-29-07, 03:22 PM	How about stacking only Attack Focus with Vicious Strike?
tarkin 05-29-07, 03:35 PM	Not sure about Attack Focus. I think it is also a Full Round action, that prevents stacking.
Orenmir 05-29-07, 05:05 PM	Why can't I perform a full-round action that has two feats apply to it? One feat applies to the attack bonus and one to the damage. Afterall, Weapon Focus and Weapon Speacialization stack -- one for attack, one for damage.
WinDReiN 05-29-07, 05:14 PM	I suggest reading Players Handbook, page 138. Actions in Combat. That should help.
Zobdek 05-29-07, 05:17 PM	Why can't I perform a full-round action that has two feats apply to it? One feat applies to the attack bonus and one to the damage. Afterall, Weapon Focus and Weapon Speacialization stack -- one for attack, one for damage. In game terms you aren't taking a full round action, you are preforming an action that takes a full round to complete. That means that if you preformed a Great Blow, it would take you a full round to complete and thus you would not have time to do another action in said round. Attack Focus is an entirely different type of attack that also takes a full round to complete. This is similar to asking why you can't cast a spell and attack in the same standard action, they are completely different actions, they just happen to take a similar amount of time. Although I haven't read attack focus (at least recently) so I'm not sure about the rules concerning its uses.
Orenmir 05-29-07, 05:27 PM	Attack Focus isn't something that take a full round to perform (like Great Blow). It simply means that you forego your extra attacks to focus on a single attack (+2 default, and an additional +2 for every attack you forego). What prevents me from readying this action (it is only a single attack)? Then, Vicious Strike would simply double the damage.
Zobdek 05-29-07, 05:32 PM	Attack Focus isn't something that take a full round to perform (like Great Blow). It simply means that you forego your extra attacks to focus on a single attack (+2 default, and an additional +2 for every attack you forego). What prevents me from readying this action (it is only a single attack)? Then, Vicious Strike would simply double the damage. What book is attack focus from, it would be easier with more precise wording. However from what you have said, I would rule that the two could stack, maybe.
Zobdek 05-29-07, 05:39 PM	What book is attack focus from, it would be easier with more precise wording. However from what you have said, I would rule that the two could stack, maybe. I changed my mind. From what you said Attack focus requires you to give up extra attacks to increase your attack bonus, thus you must make a full attack option. However to preform a Great Blow you make one attack as a full round action, you cannot give up attacks to increase your attack bonus if you are making only one attack.
Orenmir 05-29-07, 05:43 PM	Here's the link to NBoF: http://datadeco.com/nbofeats/nbofeats012.html#Attack%20Focus It reads as a "full attack" not a "full round action" --- not quite sure what the difference is. Is there a difference between a "full attack" and a "standard action?"
Orenmir 05-29-07, 05:47 PM	I changed my mind. From what you said Attack focus requires you to give up extra attacks to increase your attack bonus, thus you must make a full attack option. However to preform a Great Blow you make one attack as a full round action, you cannot give up attacks to increase your attack bonus if you are making only one attack. I agree with you there. Forget about Great Blow. Can I not ready a "full attack" option? The result of getting ready is still only going to be one attack.
Zobdek 05-29-07, 05:50 PM	Here's the link to NBoF: http://datadeco.com/nbofeats/nbofeats012.html#Attack%20Focus It reads as a "full attack" not a "full round action" --- not quite sure what the difference is. Is there a difference between a "full attack" and a "standard action?" Thanks for the link. A full attack is a type of full round action that allows you to make as many attacks as your base attack bonus would allow (feats, class/racial abilites, and magic may alter the number of attacks).
Orenmir 05-29-07, 06:12 PM	And, a full-attack option can not be readied, right? I think my frustration stems from the initiative ready action. If I decide to ready my action, I can only take a standard action -- one attack only (no full round). That's frustrating, and barely seems useable. My point of this thread was to try to find a way to make Vicious Strike a more viable option. Giving up multiple attacks just so one MIGHT hit to deal double damage seems so risky that it might not even be worth it to use! I'd rather have 3 or 4 chances to hit a mage than just one. Unless, of course, there was more incentive -- like a big bonus on that one attack (hence Attack Focus). Anyway... Just venting now. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
Zobdek 05-29-07, 06:30 PM	I agree with you there. Forget about Great Blow. Can I not ready a "full attack" option? The result of getting ready is still only going to be one attack. You cannot ready a full round action regardless of its end result. There is still an option to use vicious strike and great blow in the same attack. But first you must learn about starting/finishing a full round action as part of a standard action, which is somewhat confusing. Since you just learned the specifics of full attacks vs standard actions it may be a little more complicated than you're preparedd to learn today. You can choose to start a full round action as a standard action. This allows you to use up a standard action to no mechanical effect and still move or preform a move equivalent action in that round. The next round you can finish the full round action as another standard action. Normally people use this so that they can preform full round actions when they are limited to only a single action per turn. Note- you cannot start/finish a full attack, charge, withdraw or run.To preform this trick you will probably walk up to a mage/spellcaster of some sort and with your standard action begin a great blow. On your next turn you will ready a standard action this action is to finish your great blow. You will ready this action so that you complete it the next time that your target begins casting a spell, therfore you have fulfilled the requirements for both abilites;).
Zobdek 05-29-07, 06:38 PM	And, a full-attack option can not be readied, right? I think my frustration stems from the initiative ready action. If I decide to ready my action, I can only take a standard action -- one attack only (no full round). That's frustrating, and barely seems useable. My point of this thread was to try to find a way to make Vicious Strike a more viable option. Giving up multiple attacks just so one MIGHT hit to deal double damage seems so risky that it might not even be worth it to use! I'd rather have 3 or 4 chances to hit a mage than just one. Unless, of course, there was more incentive -- like a big bonus on that one attack (hence Attack Focus). Anyway... Just venting now. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks. It is a trade off, you are readying an action to possibly deal double damage instead of using multiple attacks, there are two reasons that this is a good option. 1) The chance that your attack will hit is probably high as he is a caster (debateable). Also if your double damage strike isn't likely to hit then your extra attacks are definitely not going to hit your target. 2) Not only is it a double damage attack, if you hit you will also force him to make a concentration check against damage dealt + 10 or lose the spell. Since this is a double damage attack the check is probably very high and in many cases will equal auto failure for most caster types. This equals very happy occult slayer as not only does the spell not get cast, it also is lost meaning he has one less spell to cast at you.
Orenmir 05-29-07, 06:49 PM	There is still an option to use vicious strike and great blow in the same attack. But first you must learn about starting/finishing a full round action as part of a standard action, which is somewhat confusing. Since you just learned the specifics of full attacks vs standard actions it may be a little more complicated than you're preparedd to learn today. WHAT?!?! I am a huge believer in the concept that emotions are easily misinterpretted in any form of written communication. Your last comment COULD be interpreted as condescending. Therefore, I decided to unblock your quote (I hope you don't mind): You can only ready a standard action, therefore you could not ready the great attack, because it is a full round attack. There is still an option to use vicious strike and great attack in the same attack. But first you must learn about starting/finishing a full round action as part of a standard action, which is somewhat confusing. Since you just learned the specifics of full attacks vs standard actions it may be a little more complicated than you're prepared to learn today. (unblocked quote below) You can choose to start a full round action as a standard action. This allows you to use up a standard action to no mechanical effect and still move or preform a move equivalent action in that round. The next round you can finish the full round action as another standard action. Normally people use this so that they can preform full round actions when they are limited to only a single action per turn. Note- you cannot start/finish a full attack, charge, withdraw or run. To preform this trick you will probably walk up to a mage/spellcaster of some sort and with your standard action begin a great attack. On your next turn you will ready a standard action this action is to finish your great attack. You will ready this action so that you complete it the next time that your target begins casting a spell, therfore you have fulfilled the requirements for both abilites;). I can see how this would work. I guess the only downside is that I only get one attack in 2 rounds (albeit a very advantageous one). I'm not sure it's worth giving up an entire round...maybe. Thanks for the tip!
Zobdek 05-29-07, 07:04 PM	WHAT?!?! I am a huge believer in the concept that emotions are easily misinterpretted in any form of written communication. Your last comment COULD be interpreted as condescending. Therefore, I decided to unblock your quote (I hope you don't mind): I can see how this would work. I guess the only downside is that I only get one attack in 2 rounds (albeit a very advantageous one). I'm not sure it's worth giving up an entire round...maybe. Thanks for the tip! Sorry, I did not mean my comment to be condescending, I was simply stating that since you are just learning/clarifying the complexities of combat actions, adding more complexity so soon could be unwanted/unnecessary. (I always forget how limited typed communication can be >.<) And I am also glad that I could help.
Orenmir 05-29-07, 07:22 PM	Sorry, I did not mean my comment to be condescending, I was simply stating that since you are just learning/clarifying the complexities of combat actions, adding more complexity so soon could be unwanted/unnecessary. (I always forget how limited typed communication can be >.<) No worries. One last question for the day... Can I get an AoO after the readied action? Let's say I have the Mage Slayer feat, so the mage can't cast defensively -- normally that would provoke an AoO, right? If not, let me know why. Many thanks.
Zobdek 05-29-07, 07:42 PM	You would get an AoO if the caster succedded on the concentration save after your prepared action, I think. However you probably don't want mageslayer because casters know they cannot cast defensively so they probably will not attempt to cast near you, negating some of your class abilites.
Orenmir 05-29-07, 08:04 PM	However you probably don't want mageslayer because casters know they cannot cast defensively so they probably will not attempt to cast near you, negating some of your class abilites. Good point. But, they probably also wouldn't want to be casting near me because of Vicious Strike, or many other of the Occult Slayer special abilities. I would hope my DM would not play the mage as if this NPC knew my character's abilities. Else, choosing the Occult Slayer PrC would be pointless! --methinks
Zobdek 05-29-07, 08:12 PM	It would be pointless (but then your dm is also a jerk). However I find mage slayer to be a pointless feat. While spellcasters near you cannot cast defensively, they know that they cannot do this and therefore will most likely move or do something else. On the other hand the abilities from your occult slayer class are completely unknown to your opponent (unless he knows your abilities somehow) and are far more useful.
kalstrand 05-29-07, 08:50 PM	You cannot ready a full round action regardless of its end result. There is still an option to use vicious strike and great blow in the same attack. But first you must learn about starting/finishing a full round action as part of a standard action, which is somewhat confusing. Since you just learned the specifics of full attacks vs standard actions it may be a little more complicated than you're preparedd to learn today. You can choose to start a full round action as a standard action. This allows you to use up a standard action to no mechanical effect and still move or preform a move equivalent action in that round. The next round you can finish the full round action as another standard action. Normally people use this so that they can preform full round actions when they are limited to only a single action per turn. Note- you cannot start/finish a full attack, charge, withdraw or run.To preform this trick you will probably walk up to a mage/spellcaster of some sort and with your standard action begin a great blow. On your next turn you will ready a standard action this action is to finish your great blow. You will ready this action so that you complete it the next time that your target begins casting a spell, therfore you have fulfilled the requirements for both abilites;). Where are these rules located? I don't recall seeing them anywhere.
Zobdek 05-29-07, 09:45 PM	Where are these rules located? I don't recall seeing them anywhere. starting/finishing a full round action is the last standard action listed in the phb.