Stacking Toughness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Stacking Toughness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dracomortis
02-25-07, 12:30 PM Let's face it - it's no secret that toughness is one of the most useless feats around in the long run. Nobody takes it unless they're running a one-shot campaign at low levels or they need it to qualify for a prestige class. The reason is that at low levels, 3 hit points is a big deal - for a mage, that's almost a 100% increase over his normal total, and even for something like a barbarian it's still 33% extra. However, by the time you hit level 20, that 3 hit points isn't even going to make a difference. The barbarian is sitting on an average of 130 hit points before considering Constitution modifiers - that 3 hit points from toughness represents a mere 2% gain, which is probably closer to 1% or less after Con is added in. Even the wizard, with a mere 50 hit points before Con mod, is getting only a 6% increase.

My proposed fix is to have Toughness stack, much like the Psionic Talent feat. The first time Toughness is taken, the character gains 3 hit points, and each additional time the feat is taken, the amount gained increases by 2 (the second time it grants 5 hit points, the third time it grants 7 hit points, and so on). This should help keep it on par with other feats, as you actually have some incentive to take it more than once. The only thing I'm concerned with is that a 1st-level human fighter could take this feat three times and have a bonus 15 hit points (and, if you allow flaws, they could potentially take it five times at 1st level and have +35 hit points).

Do you all believe that this is a reasonable fix? Too strong? Too weak? Needs prerequisites before being taken?
jaelis
02-25-07, 12:44 PM It would make more sense to have follow up feats. You can use prereqs to control the level where they become available. For instance:

Even Tougher (5 hp, prereqs Toughness and Fort +3)
Tougher Yet (7 hp, prereqs Even Tougher and Fort +5)
Really Tough (9 hp, prereqs Tougher Yet and Fort +7)
Super Tough (11 hp, prereqs Really Tough and Fort +9)
Toughest of All (13 hp, prereqs Super Tough and Fort +11)

A fighter who took the whole chain would end up with +48 hp, compared to +20 for Improved Toughness. That's probably not really enough, maybe the progression should be 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, for a total of +63 hp. I could see that being worth six feats, if that's the kind of character you were after.
DIESCUMDIE
02-25-07, 12:51 PM In masters of the wild they have these feats. Cant remember off the top of my head, but I think they give you more hp than those you've made up. They're still rather weak but, its a cheap old 3.0 paperback, with some other reasonable stuff you might like.
Wharin
02-25-07, 12:56 PM Hell, I'd even make it closer to Psionic Body and have it so that you gain 2 hp for every Fighter feat you take, in addition to Toughness (though not an actual fighter feat, that can change)
Nidair
02-25-07, 01:00 PM Yes, Dwarf's Toughness gave you +6 hit points, Giant's Toughness gave +9 hit points, and Dragon's Toughness gave +12. Come to think about it, it's the same book that spawned the Forsaker and Frenzied Berserker which are just harmful for your party, and the Blighter, the most useless class ever printed.
Dracomortis
02-25-07, 01:10 PM It would make more sense to have follow up feats. You can use prereqs to control the level where they become available. For instance:

Even Tougher (5 hp, prereqs Toughness and Fort +3)
Tougher Yet (7 hp, prereqs Even Tougher and Fort +5)
Really Tough (9 hp, prereqs Tougher Yet and Fort +7)
Super Tough (11 hp, prereqs Really Tough and Fort +9)
Toughest of All (13 hp, prereqs Super Tough and Fort +11)

A fighter who took the whole chain would end up with +48 hp, compared to +20 for Improved Toughness. That's probably not really enough, maybe the progression should be 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, for a total of +63 hp. I could see that being worth six feats, if that's the kind of character you were after.
I actually like this method better, as it prevents 1st-level abuse, although I would probably rename the feats a bit. Drop the existing Improved Toughness feat, and then have the chain go Toughness, Improved Toughness, Greater Toughness, Ultimate Toughness, Supreme Toughness, and Perfect Toughness.

Hell, I'd even make it closer to Psionic Body and have it so that you gain 2 hp for every Fighter feat you take, in addition to Toughness (though not an actual fighter feat, that can change)
The problem with that is - what feats would it be based off of? Basing it off of fighter feats means is only one step below basing it off of all feats. Plus, that means it's going to be vastly more useful for a fighter (then again, that might not be such a bad thing).
Wharin
02-25-07, 02:03 PM The problem with that is - what feats would it be based off of? Basing it off of fighter feats means is only one step below basing it off of all feats. Plus, that means it's going to be vastly more useful for a fighter (then again, that might not be such a bad thing).

Well... my stance on this is this: What kind of feats are a psion going to take? Largely- psionic feats. I really fail to see a big difference. And as you said, it would probably not be just a bad thing.
Dracomortis
02-25-07, 03:13 PM The difference is that Psionic Body is only available to psionic characters, which means that most of their feats are going to be psionic feats, which cover a wide range of feats useful to all psionic classes. Toughness, on the other hand, is available to all characters. Making it based off of fighter bonus feats is severely limiting its usefulness to spellcasters, while giving the fighter a huge advantage (as I said, it's not so much the fighter's advantage I'm worried about as the caster's disadvantage).
Leress
02-25-07, 03:27 PM It would make more sense to have follow up feats. You can use prereqs to control the level where they become available. For instance:

Even Tougher (5 hp, prereqs Toughness and Fort +3)
Tougher Yet (7 hp, prereqs Even Tougher and Fort +5)
Really Tough (9 hp, prereqs Tougher Yet and Fort +7)
Super Tough (11 hp, prereqs Really Tough and Fort +9)
Toughest of All (13 hp, prereqs Super Tough and Fort +11)

A fighter who took the whole chain would end up with +48 hp, compared to +20 for Improved Toughness. That's probably not really enough, maybe the progression should be 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, for a total of +63 hp. I could see that being worth six feats, if that's the kind of character you were after.

Improved Toughness is still better because it only takes one feat away and not 5 which is a complete loss of a combat chain. Hit point increase are only really worth one feat(and make the feat scale) Extra hit points mean nothing if you can't kill your enemies faster or have a better defense.
Jaxgaret
02-25-07, 11:57 PM A simple solution would be to incorporate Masters of the Wild's "X's Toughness" feats into the Toughness feat. Once the character reaches the appropriate base Fort save to qualify, the Toughness feat gets bumped up to Dwarf's Toughness, then to Giant's Toughness, then to Dragon's Toughness.

This fix makes it much closer to on par with Improved Toughness, without making it overpowered.
claypigeons
02-26-07, 12:46 AM A simple solution would be to incorporate Masters of the Wild's "X's Toughness" feats into the Toughness feat. Once the character reaches the appropriate base Fort save to qualify, the Toughness feat gets bumped up to Dwarf's Toughness, then to Giant's Toughness, then to Dragon's Toughness.

This fix makes it much closer to on par with Improved Toughness, without making it overpowered.

I like this idea. It makes Toughness useful.

By allowing toughness to stack to greater effect when you take it multiple times, you still don't really help out Toughness... You have to remember that people are still only ever going to take Toughness one time... and that is to qualify for a small amount of PrCs. Why take Toughness and "Even Tougher"... when I can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec? Or Power Attack and Cleave? Why use that many feats on HP when I could take the bulk of the good Fighter feats and actually kill my enemy before he can hack away at my (now slightly inflated) HP?

Having the Feat itself scale a bit so that it remains at least partially useful at higher levels is probably the way to go if you don't want to replace the requirement with Improved Toughness.
kelb_panthera
02-26-07, 03:48 AM I don't remember where, but I seem to recall reading that toughness does stack with itself. It doesn't mean much, as most of you have already mentioned, but I'm pretty sure that's right.
claypigeons
02-26-07, 04:16 AM I don't remember where, but I seem to recall reading that toughness does stack with itself. It doesn't mean much, as most of you have already mentioned, but I'm pretty sure that's right.

The feat description states that it can be taken multiple times. But that isn't the point. The main point is that the feat sucks on a cosmic level. Why would you care if you can take a completely useless feat more than once, when almost no one even thinks about thinking about taking it even once?
Aminvelos
02-26-07, 10:13 AM Our toughness

These feats can be used along with the fighter bonus feats.

Toughness1 4+ Hit points You gain a re-roll on stabilization

Pre-req lvl 3, toughness1
Toughness2 6+ +1 damage reduction/-

Pre-req lvl 6 toughness1, toughness2
Touchness3 8+ +2 damage reduction/-

Pre-req lvl 9 toughness1,2,3
Toughness4 20+ hit points & a reroll on all fortitude checks and saves.
Dracomortis
02-26-07, 04:17 PM A simple solution would be to incorporate Masters of the Wild's "X's Toughness" feats into the Toughness feat. Once the character reaches the appropriate base Fort save to qualify, the Toughness feat gets bumped up to Dwarf's Toughness, then to Giant's Toughness, then to Dragon's Toughness.

This fix makes it much closer to on par with Improved Toughness, without making it overpowered.
So what you mean is initially Toughness grants +3 hit points, and then when you reach a certain point (say, base Fortitude save +3, as I don't have Masters of the Wild), you get two more hit points for a total of +5, and so on? This idea I really like. It stacks, it only costs one feat, it's balanced throughout all character levels, and it's still useful to all classes, although it's going to scale faster for melee-oriented classes, which is perfectly fine.
Leress
02-26-07, 05:31 PM Our toughness

These feats can be used along with the fighter bonus feats.

Toughness1 4+ Hit points You gain a re-roll on stabilization

Pre-req lvl 3, toughness1
Toughness2 6+ +1 damage reduction/-

Pre-req lvl 6 toughness1, toughness2
Touchness3 8+ +2 damage reduction/-

Pre-req lvl 9 toughness1,2,3
Toughness4 20+ hit points & a reroll on all fortitude checks and saves.

Do the hit point bonuses stack or overlap? What about the re rolls do I take the best one or just the second? If they do stack than that is +38 hp, DR 2/-, re roll stabilization and all fortitude checks. That's not really worth 4 feats. Since by 9th level many things have energy damage or deal bucket loads of damage so this DR doesn't matter much. The only class I can see even taking those is the Barbarian since it already has damage reduction. People with poor Fort will still probably fail their saves even with a re roll.
KarasDjun
02-28-07, 04:37 PM How about "Toughness grants +3 hp when first taken and +1 hp/level thereafter" (thus getting you to take it at 1st level for max effect)? Or maybe a flat +2 hp every level you are eligible for a feat (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc)? Or even changing future rolls so that you always have at least (average hp +1) per level, no matter how low you roll? Or maybe it grants a permanent +1 bonus to AC along with the +3 hp?

Toughness is a prereq for Improved Toughness which is nice at mid-levels, but once you get into the upper levels becomes just as useless. Con increases become much more important!

KarasDjun
DarkRhystar
02-28-07, 04:48 PM Toughness is a prereq for Improved Toughness which is nice at mid-levels, but once you get into the upper levels becomes just as useless. Con increases become much more important!

Toughness is not a prerequisite for Improved Toughness.

Just replace the original Toughness feat with the Improved Toughness feat and you're done.
Dracomortis
02-28-07, 04:51 PM Even if you go with +3 every 3rd level, that's the same as Improved Toughness with a +3 hit point bonus (a total of +23 hp at 20th level).
Jaxgaret
02-28-07, 10:29 PM I like this idea. It makes Toughness useful.

By allowing toughness to stack to greater effect when you take it multiple times, you still don't really help out Toughness... You have to remember that people are still only ever going to take Toughness one time... and that is to qualify for a small amount of PrCs. Why take Toughness and "Even Tougher"... when I can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec? Or Power Attack and Cleave? Why use that many feats on HP when I could take the bulk of the good Fighter feats and actually kill my enemy before he can hack away at my (now slightly inflated) HP?

Having the Feat itself scale a bit so that it remains at least partially useful at higher levels is probably the way to go if you don't want to replace the requirement with Improved Toughness.

So what you mean is initially Toughness grants +3 hit points, and then when you reach a certain point (say, base Fortitude save +3, as I don't have Masters of the Wild), you get two more hit points for a total of +5, and so on? This idea I really like. It stacks, it only costs one feat, it's balanced throughout all character levels, and it's still useful to all classes, although it's going to scale faster for melee-oriented classes, which is perfectly fine.

Thanks, guys :)

To Dracomortis - you're very close to correct, but CoC prevents me from typing out the feats themselves; I will say that the HP increase is +3, not +2 - and the base Fort save requirement for Dwarf's Toughness, the first feat in the chain above Toughness, is higher than +3.
Dracomortis
03-02-07, 04:44 PM Well, the way I'm looking at it is how many times your Fortitude save actually goes up. Assuming it's a good save for your class (and barring the stacking from multiclassing), you have a maximum base save of +12, which would give you an additional 15 hit points if the feat gives +3 at each save increase, or 20 hit points if the feat gives +4 at each save increase (including the initial three hit points, it would be 18 and 23, respectively). The former seems too low. The latter makes the feat slightly more useful if you stop before epic levels, but Improved Toughness is still better from level 21 and up (remember that in epic levels, your base save no longer increases and thus neither would the bonus from Toughness). Anyway, this is what the feat looks like so far.

Toughness [General]
You can take more hits than others.
Benefit: Upon taking this feat, you immediately gain three hit points. When your base Fortitude save reaches +3 and every two points thereafter (base save +5, +7, +9, and +11), you gain an additional four hit points.
Special: A fighter may select Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dracomortis 02-25-07, 12:30 PM	Let's face it - it's no secret that toughness is one of the most useless feats around in the long run. Nobody takes it unless they're running a one-shot campaign at low levels or they need it to qualify for a prestige class. The reason is that at low levels, 3 hit points is a big deal - for a mage, that's almost a 100% increase over his normal total, and even for something like a barbarian it's still 33% extra. However, by the time you hit level 20, that 3 hit points isn't even going to make a difference. The barbarian is sitting on an average of 130 hit points before considering Constitution modifiers - that 3 hit points from toughness represents a mere 2% gain, which is probably closer to 1% or less after Con is added in. Even the wizard, with a mere 50 hit points before Con mod, is getting only a 6% increase. My proposed fix is to have Toughness stack, much like the Psionic Talent feat. The first time Toughness is taken, the character gains 3 hit points, and each additional time the feat is taken, the amount gained increases by 2 (the second time it grants 5 hit points, the third time it grants 7 hit points, and so on). This should help keep it on par with other feats, as you actually have some incentive to take it more than once. The only thing I'm concerned with is that a 1st-level human fighter could take this feat three times and have a bonus 15 hit points (and, if you allow flaws, they could potentially take it five times at 1st level and have +35 hit points). Do you all believe that this is a reasonable fix? Too strong? Too weak? Needs prerequisites before being taken?
jaelis 02-25-07, 12:44 PM	It would make more sense to have follow up feats. You can use prereqs to control the level where they become available. For instance: Even Tougher (5 hp, prereqs Toughness and Fort +3) Tougher Yet (7 hp, prereqs Even Tougher and Fort +5) Really Tough (9 hp, prereqs Tougher Yet and Fort +7) Super Tough (11 hp, prereqs Really Tough and Fort +9) Toughest of All (13 hp, prereqs Super Tough and Fort +11) A fighter who took the whole chain would end up with +48 hp, compared to +20 for Improved Toughness. That's probably not really enough, maybe the progression should be 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, for a total of +63 hp. I could see that being worth six feats, if that's the kind of character you were after.
DIESCUMDIE 02-25-07, 12:51 PM	In masters of the wild they have these feats. Cant remember off the top of my head, but I think they give you more hp than those you've made up. They're still rather weak but, its a cheap old 3.0 paperback, with some other reasonable stuff you might like.
Wharin 02-25-07, 12:56 PM	Hell, I'd even make it closer to Psionic Body and have it so that you gain 2 hp for every Fighter feat you take, in addition to Toughness (though not an actual fighter feat, that can change)
Nidair 02-25-07, 01:00 PM	Yes, Dwarf's Toughness gave you +6 hit points, Giant's Toughness gave +9 hit points, and Dragon's Toughness gave +12. Come to think about it, it's the same book that spawned the Forsaker and Frenzied Berserker which are just harmful for your party, and the Blighter, the most useless class ever printed.
Dracomortis 02-25-07, 01:10 PM	It would make more sense to have follow up feats. You can use prereqs to control the level where they become available. For instance: Even Tougher (5 hp, prereqs Toughness and Fort +3) Tougher Yet (7 hp, prereqs Even Tougher and Fort +5) Really Tough (9 hp, prereqs Tougher Yet and Fort +7) Super Tough (11 hp, prereqs Really Tough and Fort +9) Toughest of All (13 hp, prereqs Super Tough and Fort +11) A fighter who took the whole chain would end up with +48 hp, compared to +20 for Improved Toughness. That's probably not really enough, maybe the progression should be 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, for a total of +63 hp. I could see that being worth six feats, if that's the kind of character you were after. I actually like this method better, as it prevents 1st-level abuse, although I would probably rename the feats a bit. Drop the existing Improved Toughness feat, and then have the chain go Toughness, Improved Toughness, Greater Toughness, Ultimate Toughness, Supreme Toughness, and Perfect Toughness. Hell, I'd even make it closer to Psionic Body and have it so that you gain 2 hp for every Fighter feat you take, in addition to Toughness (though not an actual fighter feat, that can change) The problem with that is - what feats would it be based off of? Basing it off of fighter feats means is only one step below basing it off of all feats. Plus, that means it's going to be vastly more useful for a fighter (then again, that might not be such a bad thing).
Wharin 02-25-07, 02:03 PM	The problem with that is - what feats would it be based off of? Basing it off of fighter feats means is only one step below basing it off of all feats. Plus, that means it's going to be vastly more useful for a fighter (then again, that might not be such a bad thing). Well... my stance on this is this: What kind of feats are a psion going to take? Largely- psionic feats. I really fail to see a big difference. And as you said, it would probably not be just a bad thing.
Dracomortis 02-25-07, 03:13 PM	The difference is that Psionic Body is only available to psionic characters, which means that most of their feats are going to be psionic feats, which cover a wide range of feats useful to all psionic classes. Toughness, on the other hand, is available to all characters. Making it based off of fighter bonus feats is severely limiting its usefulness to spellcasters, while giving the fighter a huge advantage (as I said, it's not so much the fighter's advantage I'm worried about as the caster's disadvantage).
Leress 02-25-07, 03:27 PM	It would make more sense to have follow up feats. You can use prereqs to control the level where they become available. For instance: Even Tougher (5 hp, prereqs Toughness and Fort +3) Tougher Yet (7 hp, prereqs Even Tougher and Fort +5) Really Tough (9 hp, prereqs Tougher Yet and Fort +7) Super Tough (11 hp, prereqs Really Tough and Fort +9) Toughest of All (13 hp, prereqs Super Tough and Fort +11) A fighter who took the whole chain would end up with +48 hp, compared to +20 for Improved Toughness. That's probably not really enough, maybe the progression should be 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, for a total of +63 hp. I could see that being worth six feats, if that's the kind of character you were after. Improved Toughness is still better because it only takes one feat away and not 5 which is a complete loss of a combat chain. Hit point increase are only really worth one feat(and make the feat scale) Extra hit points mean nothing if you can't kill your enemies faster or have a better defense.
Jaxgaret 02-25-07, 11:57 PM	A simple solution would be to incorporate Masters of the Wild's "X's Toughness" feats into the Toughness feat. Once the character reaches the appropriate base Fort save to qualify, the Toughness feat gets bumped up to Dwarf's Toughness, then to Giant's Toughness, then to Dragon's Toughness. This fix makes it much closer to on par with Improved Toughness, without making it overpowered.
claypigeons 02-26-07, 12:46 AM	A simple solution would be to incorporate Masters of the Wild's "X's Toughness" feats into the Toughness feat. Once the character reaches the appropriate base Fort save to qualify, the Toughness feat gets bumped up to Dwarf's Toughness, then to Giant's Toughness, then to Dragon's Toughness. This fix makes it much closer to on par with Improved Toughness, without making it overpowered. I like this idea. It makes Toughness useful. By allowing toughness to stack to greater effect when you take it multiple times, you still don't really help out Toughness... You have to remember that people are still only ever going to take Toughness one time... and that is to qualify for a small amount of PrCs. Why take Toughness and "Even Tougher"... when I can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec? Or Power Attack and Cleave? Why use that many feats on HP when I could take the bulk of the good Fighter feats and actually kill my enemy before he can hack away at my (now slightly inflated) HP? Having the Feat itself scale a bit so that it remains at least partially useful at higher levels is probably the way to go if you don't want to replace the requirement with Improved Toughness.
kelb_panthera 02-26-07, 03:48 AM	I don't remember where, but I seem to recall reading that toughness does stack with itself. It doesn't mean much, as most of you have already mentioned, but I'm pretty sure that's right.
claypigeons 02-26-07, 04:16 AM	I don't remember where, but I seem to recall reading that toughness does stack with itself. It doesn't mean much, as most of you have already mentioned, but I'm pretty sure that's right. The feat description states that it can be taken multiple times. But that isn't the point. The main point is that the feat sucks on a cosmic level. Why would you care if you can take a completely useless feat more than once, when almost no one even thinks about thinking about taking it even once?
Aminvelos 02-26-07, 10:13 AM	Our toughness These feats can be used along with the fighter bonus feats. Toughness1 4+ Hit points You gain a re-roll on stabilization Pre-req lvl 3, toughness1 Toughness2 6+ +1 damage reduction/- Pre-req lvl 6 toughness1, toughness2 Touchness3 8+ +2 damage reduction/- Pre-req lvl 9 toughness1,2,3 Toughness4 20+ hit points & a reroll on all fortitude checks and saves.
Dracomortis 02-26-07, 04:17 PM	A simple solution would be to incorporate Masters of the Wild's "X's Toughness" feats into the Toughness feat. Once the character reaches the appropriate base Fort save to qualify, the Toughness feat gets bumped up to Dwarf's Toughness, then to Giant's Toughness, then to Dragon's Toughness. This fix makes it much closer to on par with Improved Toughness, without making it overpowered. So what you mean is initially Toughness grants +3 hit points, and then when you reach a certain point (say, base Fortitude save +3, as I don't have Masters of the Wild), you get two more hit points for a total of +5, and so on? This idea I really like. It stacks, it only costs one feat, it's balanced throughout all character levels, and it's still useful to all classes, although it's going to scale faster for melee-oriented classes, which is perfectly fine.
Leress 02-26-07, 05:31 PM	Our toughness These feats can be used along with the fighter bonus feats. Toughness1 4+ Hit points You gain a re-roll on stabilization Pre-req lvl 3, toughness1 Toughness2 6+ +1 damage reduction/- Pre-req lvl 6 toughness1, toughness2 Touchness3 8+ +2 damage reduction/- Pre-req lvl 9 toughness1,2,3 Toughness4 20+ hit points & a reroll on all fortitude checks and saves. Do the hit point bonuses stack or overlap? What about the re rolls do I take the best one or just the second? If they do stack than that is +38 hp, DR 2/-, re roll stabilization and all fortitude checks. That's not really worth 4 feats. Since by 9th level many things have energy damage or deal bucket loads of damage so this DR doesn't matter much. The only class I can see even taking those is the Barbarian since it already has damage reduction. People with poor Fort will still probably fail their saves even with a re roll.
KarasDjun 02-28-07, 04:37 PM	How about "Toughness grants +3 hp when first taken and +1 hp/level thereafter" (thus getting you to take it at 1st level for max effect)? Or maybe a flat +2 hp every level you are eligible for a feat (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc)? Or even changing future rolls so that you always have at least (average hp +1) per level, no matter how low you roll? Or maybe it grants a permanent +1 bonus to AC along with the +3 hp? Toughness is a prereq for Improved Toughness which is nice at mid-levels, but once you get into the upper levels becomes just as useless. Con increases become much more important! KarasDjun
DarkRhystar 02-28-07, 04:48 PM	Toughness is a prereq for Improved Toughness which is nice at mid-levels, but once you get into the upper levels becomes just as useless. Con increases become much more important! Toughness is not a prerequisite for Improved Toughness. Just replace the original Toughness feat with the Improved Toughness feat and you're done.
Dracomortis 02-28-07, 04:51 PM	Even if you go with +3 every 3rd level, that's the same as Improved Toughness with a +3 hit point bonus (a total of +23 hp at 20th level).
Jaxgaret 02-28-07, 10:29 PM	I like this idea. It makes Toughness useful. By allowing toughness to stack to greater effect when you take it multiple times, you still don't really help out Toughness... You have to remember that people are still only ever going to take Toughness one time... and that is to qualify for a small amount of PrCs. Why take Toughness and "Even Tougher"... when I can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec? Or Power Attack and Cleave? Why use that many feats on HP when I could take the bulk of the good Fighter feats and actually kill my enemy before he can hack away at my (now slightly inflated) HP? Having the Feat itself scale a bit so that it remains at least partially useful at higher levels is probably the way to go if you don't want to replace the requirement with Improved Toughness. So what you mean is initially Toughness grants +3 hit points, and then when you reach a certain point (say, base Fortitude save +3, as I don't have Masters of the Wild), you get two more hit points for a total of +5, and so on? This idea I really like. It stacks, it only costs one feat, it's balanced throughout all character levels, and it's still useful to all classes, although it's going to scale faster for melee-oriented classes, which is perfectly fine. Thanks, guys :) To Dracomortis - you're very close to correct, but CoC prevents me from typing out the feats themselves; I will say that the HP increase is +3, not +2 - and the base Fort save requirement for Dwarf's Toughness, the first feat in the chain above Toughness, is higher than +3.
Dracomortis 03-02-07, 04:44 PM	Well, the way I'm looking at it is how many times your Fortitude save actually goes up. Assuming it's a good save for your class (and barring the stacking from multiclassing), you have a maximum base save of +12, which would give you an additional 15 hit points if the feat gives +3 at each save increase, or 20 hit points if the feat gives +4 at each save increase (including the initial three hit points, it would be 18 and 23, respectively). The former seems too low. The latter makes the feat slightly more useful if you stop before epic levels, but Improved Toughness is still better from level 21 and up (remember that in epic levels, your base save no longer increases and thus neither would the bonus from Toughness). Anyway, this is what the feat looks like so far. Toughness [General] You can take more hits than others. Benefit: Upon taking this feat, you immediately gain three hit points. When your base Fortitude save reaches +3 and every two points thereafter (base save +5, +7, +9, and +11), you gain an additional four hit points. Special: A fighter may select Toughness as one of his fighter bonus feats.