Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheMonk 08-05-07, 01:43 PM	I have stumbled upon a few terms that I've never heard of before. Stances and maneuvers. I was unable to find any sticky threads explaining these two things (maybe I just missed it). Can anyone explain to me what these are, and how they work? If you can just give me a link to a sticky or anything that explains this, that would be great :) I am not sure if these things are from some book that I don't have (although I have at least 40+ D&D related books on my hard disk). Sorry if this has been explained in a sticky already, but I wasn't able to find anything. Thanks :)
Tempest Stormwind 08-05-07, 01:47 PM	I have stumbled upon a few terms that I've never heard of before. Stances and maneuvers. I was unable to find any sticky threads explaining these two things (maybe I just missed it). Can anyone explain to me what these are, and how they work? If you can just give me a link to a sticky or anything that explains this, that would be great :) I am not sure if these things are from some book that I don't have (although I have at least 40+ D&D related books on my hard disk). Sorry if this has been explained in a sticky already, but I wasn't able to find anything. Thanks :) Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. Primer here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a). Examples here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=4).
EvilVegan 08-05-07, 02:31 PM	Tome of Battle has a new system of combat that involves stances and maneuvers. Stances are constant effects that you can switch between, such as a stance that grants you scent, or another that lets you sneak attack. Maneuvers are combat techniques that have various effects (stances are technically maneuvers). Most manuevers are about dealing damage and effects, such as adding fire damage to an attack or dealing double damage or disarming a foe. In addition to these there are other abilities, including teleportation, healing, debuffs, flying, airwalking, and spell/ability negating/avoidance. It is seen as a balanced system to make melee combatants balanced against spellcasters, but some would argue this point. Overall it provides an enjoyable level of complexity to the melee attack that was getting a bit stale. Compare "I power attack for 20, I do 24d6+190 on 8 attacks" vs "I initiate garillon windmill flesh rip and time stands still while in punish stance and blood in the water, he takes 62d6+140 damage from my 14 attacks!"
TheMonk 08-05-07, 02:35 PM	Thank you both for providing that info! :) I'll look into it :)
EvilVegan 08-05-07, 02:36 PM	Its quite fun. Maybe a bit on the powerful side, but only when compared to a fighter.
Novacat 08-05-07, 04:20 PM	Its quite fun. Maybe a bit on the powerful side, but only when compared to a fighter. I direct you to this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=900382), where I show how a standard fighter can effectively defeat a swordsage.
InkBlot 08-05-07, 05:47 PM	Please note that very few stances or maneuvers do weird things like teleport, give you scent, or shoot fire. The vast majority of stances and maneuvers are simple combat effects. These are the typical things that stances and maneuvers (boosts, strikes, and counters) can do. Keep in mind that each boost, strike, or counter can only be performed once, until you recover your maneuvers. Tome Of Battle is designed to give melee characters something different to try on every turn. Stances: Increasing reach, but only on your turn (so it doesn't help with AoOs). Increasing your speed. Giving you a bonus each time do something, such as scoring a critical hit, which reset at the start of each turn. Increasing AC. Giving free 5-foot-steps under certain conditions, such as being hit or when you successfully hit an enemy. Giving bonuses to special attacks, such as tripping or sundering. The bonuses are small compared to boosts. Boosts: In addition to the kind of bonuses you can get from stances (which you typically get earlier as a boost, but boosts only last 1 round at best), boosts sometimes let you perform special actions. For example, there's the Sudden Leap boost which lets you move as far as you can jump. Counters: Counter attacks of all kinds. Getting a free attack if you're hit. Parrying by replacing your AC with a check. Just plain getting a bonus to AC. Getting an extra AoO. Moving to follow a foe if he runs away. Boosting a save (there are separate boosts for each saving throw). Redirecting an attack which misses you. Strikes: Make a single attack which also inflicts a status ailment. Make an extra attack. Make an attack with a bonus to hit or damage. Make a check in place of an attack. Make a special attack with a bonus (trip, grapple, etc.). Make an attack and if you hit you get a bonus for a round. Make an attack and your allies get a bonus for a round. The fire breathing, healing, teleporting stuff is an exception to the above. Besides the Devoted Spirit discipline (which has six healing stances/maneuvers out of about 25 total), only one other discipline has a single healing maneuver. Besides the Desert Wind discipline, only one other discipline has a single maneuver which deals energy damage. Besides the Shadow Hand discipline, only one other discipline has even a single teleport maneuver (and that's Desert Wind). About 80% of the Tome Of Battle is in line with what a fighter or barbarian could do at the same level. The rest matches what a melee-focused monk, rogue, ranger, paladin, or bard could do at the same level. The Tome Of Battle just does it in a way that is more fun, by giving each individual character more options in each combat - something different to do each round, instead of just "five foot step and full attack" all the time.
Longarms 08-06-07, 12:05 AM	Here is some text from the absolute steel stance: "You shift your weight to the back of your feet and hold your blade carefully forward at the ready. " I am not an expert at fighting, but I am fairly sure that distributing your weight to the back of your feet is BAD in terms of mobility. Hence the colloquialism, "caught on his heels"... Do you think they meant, "You shift your weight to your back foot and hold your blade carefully forward at the ready
Tempest Stormwind 08-06-07, 01:47 AM	Ever played any of the later Jedi Knight games? There are three lightsaber styles in those, which they call Fast, Normal, and Strong. Strong is what I see Punishing Stance as -- you lean slightly farther back than normal (since normal styles involve leaning slightly forward, this means you're almost upright) and hold the hilt roughly level with your head, off to one side. This allows for easy two-handed swings with great power behind them, but since the blade is so far out of the way you can't readily defend yourself in that stance. (I'm told it's similar to a Kendo stance, but I'm not very familiar with kendo (though I wish I was). The fencing equivalent would likely be straight-lane). Statistically, as far as damage is concerned, Punishing Stance is approximately on par with a barbarian's rage. However, the rage comes with increased Fort saves, HP, Will saves, attack rolls, and opposed Strength checks, while Punishing Stance gets +1.5 average damage (at a lower attack bonus) over Rage.
TorgSmackie 08-06-07, 03:06 AM	I am not an expert at fighting, but I am fairly sure that distributing your weight to the back of your feet is BAD in terms of mobility. Absolute Steel involves at least one backflip, using momentum supplied by your opponent. Good times.
EvilVegan 08-06-07, 11:04 AM	I direct you to this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=900382), where I show how a standard fighter can effectively defeat a swordsage. Wow, a single character completely optimized to defeat a sub optimal version of a non-comparable class. Good job. I wasn't saying ToB classes could beat up the dads of core classes, I was saying that in a party-based game they're sometimes more powerful than standard classes. But yes, it is possible for well-built core classes to beat them in PvP.
Tempest Stormwind 08-07-07, 01:05 AM	...Incidentally, EvilVegan, that would explain why my own comparisons focus so heavily on removing "build" from the equation. Just sayin'.
Obsidianjaerc 08-07-07, 01:45 AM	Absolute Steel doesn't have viable flavour, although the mechanics are solid. A Jedi technique shouldn't be used to call a maneuver realistic. It's a pretty silly idea really. I'd just change it to say... "You shift your weight to the balls of your feet and hold your blade carefully forward, at the ready. "
Novacat 08-07-07, 03:37 AM	Wow, a single character completely optimized to defeat a sub optimal version of a non-comparable class. Good job. I wasn't saying ToB classes could beat up the dads of core classes, I was saying that in a party-based game they're sometimes more powerful than standard classes. But yes, it is possible for well-built core classes to beat them in PvP. Actually, the fighter builds I posted would work well as defense-oriented party tanks. They also happen to be (IMO) ideal for beating a swordsage 1v1, as well as being able to masterfully fulfill a vital party role for which the swordsage just simply isn't good. Also, in that thread, I point out why the duel in question doesn't prove anything about the power levels of the two classes, because power in D&D is judged by a teamwork standard. I also show specifically how the swordsage is less powerful as part of a group than in a 1v1 duel.
Longarms 08-08-07, 12:30 AM	""You shift your weight to the balls of your feet and hold your blade carefully forward, at the ready. " Looks like we agree that the text of the manuver is silly, but we have different ideas on how to fix it. I like my idea a little better, because its practically instinct to fight with your weight on the balls of his feet. Its hard to imagine anyone having specialized training in such a basic, instinctual posture. Shifting your weight to your backfoot does make you more mobile, and defensive, and is slightly easier to imagine as a specialized stance/technique.
EvilVegan 08-09-07, 09:40 AM	Actually, the fighter builds I posted would work well as defense-oriented party tanks. They also happen to be (IMO) ideal for beating a swordsage 1v1, as well as being able to masterfully fulfill a vital party role for which the swordsage just simply isn't good. Also, in that thread, I point out why the duel in question doesn't prove anything about the power levels of the two classes, because power in D&D is judged by a teamwork standard. I also show specifically how the swordsage is less powerful as part of a group than in a 1v1 duel. The only problem with this is that a swordsage isn't supposed to replace the tank, its supposed to replace the blaster/aoe wizard and is the closest to a ranged combatant in ToB (has access a few ranged maneuvers). Warblade is to fighter as swordsage is to warlock.
Tempest Stormwind 08-09-07, 11:19 AM	EvilVegan: Distance blasting is an *option* the swordsage has. I'd say he's closer to the monk in general -- Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Tiger Claw, and Stone Dragon form most of his available schools and those are all melee-range, and each can be frighteningly effective (a Setting Sun swordsage can actually be a very good TANK by forcing enemies to waste actions getting back into position). Meanwhile, Desert Wind doesn't scale and is fire damage, meaning it tends to be weak. Think of it as a monk who knows Hadouken Ki Blast. He has a distance attack if he doesn't want to get close, but he's primarily about getting close.
EvilVegan 08-10-07, 08:41 AM	Yea, I know. I said closest to a ranged combatant. :P That is to say he has like 5 abilities that let him attack at about 50 ft. But he does have a few area affecting spells, and there is the variant rule that lets them pick up wizard spells as maneuvers (wha?!).