Standard Metamagic vs Sudden Metamagic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Standard Metamagic vs Sudden Metamagic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Curtcleancut
07-26-07, 10:16 AM I'm about to play my first caster. A sorcerer wild mage at 6th level. I've been doing research on feats. The DM won't let us create our own items so I'm pushed into the direction of metamagic feats.

What do you guys like better or recommend? The Sudden Metamagic line (Sudden Expand, Sudden Enlarge) vs. the standard Englarge Spell, Expand Spell, etc?
Johnny_Angel
07-26-07, 10:28 AM It depends on what is available to you. If your a sorcerer, normally the sudden metamagics are better because they do not increase your casting time.

However, if Complete Mage is a book that's available to you, you can take the Rapid Metamagic feat (as a sorcerer) and use all of the normal metamagics normally.

Alternatively, if Player's Handbook 2 is available, you can use the sorcerer variant in which you give up your familiar for the ability to use metamagic.
Puca
07-26-07, 10:31 AM Its a choice:
Sudden feats are usable once per day, but are very powerful that the one time you use them, you have an effect that is typically beyond the ability of a normal sorcerer, e.g. you could cast a maximixed fireball at your level, which is better than most can do.

A regular metamagic feat can be used repeatedly, but will never be the "big gun" that a Sudden one is.

So it is kind of up to you and the type of sorcerer you want to be, and the campaign will also influence the choice. (The fewer encounters you have per day, the greater the value of once-per-day abilities.)

I take regular metamagic.
Level 6, I know one third-level spell. I can take something that does damage on par with 3rd level spells or I can take a much-needed utility spell like Dispel Magic. What do I do? I take Empower Spell.

When I need Dispel Magic, I cast that. When I want to do more damage, I apply Empower to a spell like Magic Missile, and do my damage that way. (No, it isnt Fireball, but it is better than I could do without the metamagic. It definitely isnt a maximized Fireball, but I can do this every encounter if need be, or Dispel if that is the better choice.)

It depends on what is available to you. If your a sorcerer, normally the sudden metamagics are better because they do not increase your casting time.Note: this rule is in the Minis Handbook. It was not included in the more recent versions of the feats.

Some think it was an oversight; some think it was intentional. Find out what your DM thinks.
jaelis
07-26-07, 10:49 AM You can mix them up of course. I think sudden maximize and regular empower are both quite nice. And heighten spell is often handy for a sorc, as is energy substitution. Sudden still would probably be nice... you often want it in a grapple or the like where a full round action isn't an option. And you don't usually need it many times a day.
tarkin
07-26-07, 10:51 AM It depends on your feat and your class.

Please note that I STRONGLY disagree with Johnny_Angel about Sorcerors. 9 times out of 10, Sorcerors do not give a crap about losing the MEA, so go with the non-sudden feat.

That said, I can give you some basics rules

Non damagine boosting Metmagics:

Sorceror should take the non-sudden versions of abilities that do not increase damage (Still, Silent, Widen, Enlarge). When you need these abilities you are likely to need to use them more than once

Wizards should take the sudden versions of abilities that do not increase damage (Still, Silent, Widen, Enlarge). When you need these abilities you will not know before hand on which spell to use them. True you will want them more than once, but you would never even memorize them once, so once is better than none.

-------
Damage boosting metamagics:

If you are likely to use the abilties on your highest level spells, obviously take the Sudden. If you are likely to use them on the lower levels, take the non-sudden.

You can tell this by looking at your spell selection - are your highest level spells known/typically prepared good combat spells that will benefit from the feats?
Johnny_Angel
07-26-07, 11:08 AM Actually, I'm going to change my answer. I forgot that you could only use sudden metamagics once per day.

That being the case, I suggest the normal metamagic feats.
Curtcleancut
07-26-07, 01:58 PM Thanks for the info. Looks like Standard Metamagic is the wins.
CaoSlayer
07-26-07, 02:15 PM You want to mix both.

Sudden are godsend for BBEG fights, specially combined with metamagic rods... everybody likes being able to cast this more powerful area effect damage dealer maximized and empowered for outright killing all the minions and critically hurting the BBEG.

while regulars are nice for a sorcerer because when you gain a new spell level you only can know one spell and regular metamagic can make for the lack of know spells, by example when your sorcerer is level 10 and can cast level 5 spells is better to have empower spell and cast a fireball for 15d6 damage than a cone of cold for just 10d6 so you can take your level 5 spell for a buff or save-or-die.

So take a damage sudden one for that extra punch that can mean the diference between victory and defeat and the rest as regular ones.
Curtcleancut
07-26-07, 02:28 PM sounds like good advice. i was actually thinking along those lines.
Rulebook
07-26-07, 09:11 PM i like sudden widen a lot.
Mastel
07-26-07, 09:33 PM Sudden feat can make you win a hard fight on the first round.

A sudden maximized, empowered & enlarge fire ball can do a lot of damage to a lot of monsters.

The cost of 3 feats to cast one good spell a day is very expensive. It is better not to use it on the same spell.

At high level, metamagic feat get more useful since you use the high level spell slots for more diversity.

The best is to use sudden at low level & retrain it at high level.
Ifshnit
07-27-07, 12:49 PM Mix & match is what I prefer. What others haven't mentioned here, which I think is also important is that Sudden metamagic feats DON'T modify the level of the spell. So, while Empower Spell takes up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell you want to modify, Sudden Empower can be used on the spell as is. That gives the Sudden metamagic feats a bit more value, IMO.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Curtcleancut 07-26-07, 10:16 AM	I'm about to play my first caster. A sorcerer wild mage at 6th level. I've been doing research on feats. The DM won't let us create our own items so I'm pushed into the direction of metamagic feats. What do you guys like better or recommend? The Sudden Metamagic line (Sudden Expand, Sudden Enlarge) vs. the standard Englarge Spell, Expand Spell, etc?
Johnny_Angel 07-26-07, 10:28 AM	It depends on what is available to you. If your a sorcerer, normally the sudden metamagics are better because they do not increase your casting time. However, if Complete Mage is a book that's available to you, you can take the Rapid Metamagic feat (as a sorcerer) and use all of the normal metamagics normally. Alternatively, if Player's Handbook 2 is available, you can use the sorcerer variant in which you give up your familiar for the ability to use metamagic.
Puca 07-26-07, 10:31 AM	Its a choice: Sudden feats are usable once per day, but are very powerful that the one time you use them, you have an effect that is typically beyond the ability of a normal sorcerer, e.g. you could cast a maximixed fireball at your level, which is better than most can do. A regular metamagic feat can be used repeatedly, but will never be the "big gun" that a Sudden one is. So it is kind of up to you and the type of sorcerer you want to be, and the campaign will also influence the choice. (The fewer encounters you have per day, the greater the value of once-per-day abilities.) I take regular metamagic. Level 6, I know one third-level spell. I can take something that does damage on par with 3rd level spells or I can take a much-needed utility spell like Dispel Magic. What do I do? I take Empower Spell. When I need Dispel Magic, I cast that. When I want to do more damage, I apply Empower to a spell like Magic Missile, and do my damage that way. (No, it isnt Fireball, but it is better than I could do without the metamagic. It definitely isnt a maximized Fireball, but I can do this every encounter if need be, or Dispel if that is the better choice.) It depends on what is available to you. If your a sorcerer, normally the sudden metamagics are better because they do not increase your casting time.Note: this rule is in the Minis Handbook. It was not included in the more recent versions of the feats. Some think it was an oversight; some think it was intentional. Find out what your DM thinks.
jaelis 07-26-07, 10:49 AM	You can mix them up of course. I think sudden maximize and regular empower are both quite nice. And heighten spell is often handy for a sorc, as is energy substitution. Sudden still would probably be nice... you often want it in a grapple or the like where a full round action isn't an option. And you don't usually need it many times a day.
tarkin 07-26-07, 10:51 AM	It depends on your feat and your class. Please note that I STRONGLY disagree with Johnny_Angel about Sorcerors. 9 times out of 10, Sorcerors do not give a crap about losing the MEA, so go with the non-sudden feat. That said, I can give you some basics rules Non damagine boosting Metmagics: Sorceror should take the non-sudden versions of abilities that do not increase damage (Still, Silent, Widen, Enlarge). When you need these abilities you are likely to need to use them more than once Wizards should take the sudden versions of abilities that do not increase damage (Still, Silent, Widen, Enlarge). When you need these abilities you will not know before hand on which spell to use them. True you will want them more than once, but you would never even memorize them once, so once is better than none. ------- Damage boosting metamagics: If you are likely to use the abilties on your highest level spells, obviously take the Sudden. If you are likely to use them on the lower levels, take the non-sudden. You can tell this by looking at your spell selection - are your highest level spells known/typically prepared good combat spells that will benefit from the feats?
Johnny_Angel 07-26-07, 11:08 AM	Actually, I'm going to change my answer. I forgot that you could only use sudden metamagics once per day. That being the case, I suggest the normal metamagic feats.
Curtcleancut 07-26-07, 01:58 PM	Thanks for the info. Looks like Standard Metamagic is the wins.
CaoSlayer 07-26-07, 02:15 PM	You want to mix both. Sudden are godsend for BBEG fights, specially combined with metamagic rods... everybody likes being able to cast this more powerful area effect damage dealer maximized and empowered for outright killing all the minions and critically hurting the BBEG. while regulars are nice for a sorcerer because when you gain a new spell level you only can know one spell and regular metamagic can make for the lack of know spells, by example when your sorcerer is level 10 and can cast level 5 spells is better to have empower spell and cast a fireball for 15d6 damage than a cone of cold for just 10d6 so you can take your level 5 spell for a buff or save-or-die. So take a damage sudden one for that extra punch that can mean the diference between victory and defeat and the rest as regular ones.
Curtcleancut 07-26-07, 02:28 PM	sounds like good advice. i was actually thinking along those lines.
Rulebook 07-26-07, 09:11 PM	i like sudden widen a lot.
Mastel 07-26-07, 09:33 PM	Sudden feat can make you win a hard fight on the first round. A sudden maximized, empowered & enlarge fire ball can do a lot of damage to a lot of monsters. The cost of 3 feats to cast one good spell a day is very expensive. It is better not to use it on the same spell. At high level, metamagic feat get more useful since you use the high level spell slots for more diversity. The best is to use sudden at low level & retrain it at high level.
Ifshnit 07-27-07, 12:49 PM	Mix & match is what I prefer. What others haven't mentioned here, which I think is also important is that Sudden metamagic feats DON'T modify the level of the spell. So, while Empower Spell takes up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell you want to modify, Sudden Empower can be used on the spell as is. That gives the Sudden metamagic feats a bit more value, IMO.