Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Huzzah! 02-23-07, 03:08 PM	Are there any rules or options to use your Str modifier instead of a Cha modifier for an Intimidate check? You know... "Shouldn't the barbarian be better at intimidation than a bard?"
JulesCARV 02-23-07, 03:20 PM	If you're a level 3+ cleric of Hextor, you can take the Dread Tyranny feat in Races of Destiny, to add both your charisma and your strength to intimidate. Otherwise, there's no official way that I know of. Personally, I'd allow you to take a feat to substitute strength for charisma in intimidate, although I anticipate that the majority of replies in this thread will be opposed that that position.
gelalshawr 02-23-07, 03:21 PM	I could see house-ruling it if you like that flavor You know... "Shouldn't the barbarian be better at intimidation than a bard?" not necessarily, there's something decidedly more creepy about the skinny lil guy with the maniacal grin and sharp knife happily describing the details of evescerating you, than the big dumb guy that could very easily break you if he wanted, but isn't very articulate about it.
DaidojiTaidoru 02-23-07, 03:29 PM	Remember, the barbarian doesn't need to roll intimidate most times. He's making a promise. The Bard on the other hand isn't obviously capable of ripping your arms out of your sockets. Also theres also the issue that strength is relative (the dragon is unlikely to be impressed with your 18 strength), only works in some intimidation cases (ghosts are unlikely to care about how hard you can swing), and strength is not always apparent. (the 5' tall slim elf could have a strength of 8, or could have items and spells that boost it to 20. You don't know until she hits someone) I could however see a feat allowing strength instead of Charisma for battlefield intimidation. Unfortunatly I am unsure if any such feat exists. Also battlefield intimidation needs some serious work to make it not a waste of time....
Ryusage 02-23-07, 03:30 PM	This has been analysed hundreds of times. Just because you're scary does NOT mean that you are intimidating. If the big barbarian who was scaring me gets stabbed and is unconscious on the ground, I wouldn't think twice about killing him. But if the intimidating, 5'6" mafia leader is unconscious after threatening to get his buddies to waste me and my family if anything happened to him, I'm gonna think twice about taking him out.
Loki5654 02-23-07, 03:38 PM	Strength measures your character’s muscle and physical power. Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. Intimidation is much more related to "force of personality" than it is to "physical power". A person can be strong but not intimidating (the gentle giant syndrome). A person can be intimidating without being strong (I'm certain I could have beaten Pope John Paul II at arm wrestling, but I would have been afraid to do so). Intimidating through strength (look at these muscles! you better do what I want!) is only one small aspect of intimidation and is virtually useless if you don't have the force of personality to back it up.
Rulebook 02-23-07, 03:42 PM	yeah, barbarians are Scary. thats different from intimidating. Intimidation means you're acting bigger and badder than you really are... barbarians ARE big and bad. i prefer have my barbarian "Aid Another" when i go for intimidation checks. hehe
Loki5654 02-23-07, 03:46 PM	To elaborate on my point: There are aspects on Intimidate that could benefit from a muscle-bound physique. But that is up to the DM to decide. That's why the rules encourage DM's to use "conditional modifiers". If someone in my game were to try and Intimidate using physical prowess, I might allow them to make a Strength check (DC 10) and if they succeed I'd give them a +2 on their Intimidate check. But the Intimidate check would still be CHA based because Intimidation is less about being able to back up a threat than it is about making someone else believe you will back up the threat. That's "force of personality".
JulesCARV 02-23-07, 03:46 PM	I should note that size category does, in fact, apply a modifier to intimidate, even if strength doesn't, as per the game rules. Feel free to house rule this away if you feel it is inappropriate.
Kintara 02-23-07, 04:08 PM	People seem to think that it shouldn't matter that they have an 8 Charisma. Most of the time, it's not really a big deal for your Barbarian. But sometimes it is, and Intimidation is one of those instances. Maybe you're like Frankenstein's Monster when you try to intimidate people. They scream and run away or try to kill you (you "overdo" it). The Bard, on the other hand, may not make himself the active force behind the intimidation. The Bard could whisper that his big scary friend over there (you, the Barbarian) will do Terrible Things if the intimidatee doesn't go along, and then he proceeds to tell a story about the crazy barbarian's murdering, depraved exploits. Then he gives you the signal to smile at just the right time. And if he doesn't have a scary friend nearby, the Bard is cool enough to put on a scary show. Heck, I'm more scared of crazy people than musclebound people now that I think about it. That said, it is true that size does affect intimidation, and I think it would make sense if someone made a size-based (Unearthed Arcana-style) trait or maybe a first level only feat for especially big characters that includes a bonus to intimidation.
mugguod 02-23-07, 04:33 PM	Depending on the situation...the DM can adjust the Intimidate check. Say a hal-orc barbarian had a halfling bard in a head lock (grappled/pinned him). A good DM would at leaast give the barbarian a +2 bonus and the bard a -2 penalty. He might even throw in another +2 for their size difference or if the barbarian provided a few points of non-leathal damage. I would consider these acceptable house rules, as long as they were consistantly applied. They don't require changing the rules to allow substituting STR for CHA. Just using your STR to create a favorable situation. And would still allow for a high-CHA character to 'talk his way out of' the head lock.
BW0222 02-23-07, 06:33 PM	Folks, Strength only works if you are going to threaten physical violence. Such threats are highly unlikely to convince someone to do what you tell them. First, there are hundreds of creatures which are stronger than you. A dragon, troll, etc. just isn't going to be impressed by you tearing a phone book in half. Second, in D&D pure physical strength has little relationship to defeating someone in combat. At 10th-level wizard isn't going to be worried about someone flexing big muscles. In fact, he'll probably be releaved... great, one good will save spell and this guy is toast. Third, in most social situations you aren't going to believe that someone would actually carry through with such a threat. "If you beat me up, the guards will hang you. In fact, if I just say you threatened me, the guards will arrest you." Forth, physical threats can be avoided (even by low-level folks) by lying, fleeing, or calling for help/witnesses. Fifth, even when physical threats can't be avoided, folks need to be convinced that you won't carry them out anyway. i.e. "As long as I don't talk, then you can't kill me." The key to intimidating someone is to make a believable threat. Something you could do, which wouldn't hurt you more than me, etc. Example: You need to get information from a barkeep. Half-orc: (Breaks a chair with one hand) "Tell me the name of the girl that the merchant last night or I'll smash your head in." (Now, the barkeep could a) call the guards, b) lie, c) run, d) pull out a wand of hold person, e) ask the twenty patrons to kick the half-orc out of the bar, etc., etc. The threat itself is pretty lame, the orc would be getting himself hung for attacking a citizen.) Bard: "Say... nice crowd. I'm interested in knowing the name of that little lass with the merchant last night. If you can't remember know her name for some reason, I've got some kegs of dwarven ale and I was thinking about giving away free samples outside your place and doing a bit of singing all night long. I figure we could clear this place in about ten minutes." (Now, what is the barkeep going to do? The bard certainly could follow through on his threat. He can't call the guards? Running doesn't help? The rest of the folks in bar aren't going to help? It would cost the barkeep dearly and there isn't much he can do about it.)
IrishRover 02-23-07, 06:56 PM	Intimidate requires several things. First, the percieved ability to do harm. If the subject doesn't think you can do any harm, there's no intimidating him. Second, not just a belief that you will do harm, but also a belief that you won't if the subject cooperates. A giant with a bloodthirsty rep will scare people--but if they don't believe cooperating will save their hides, they'll run or fight. That giant can't gain anything with intimidate, because he's got people TOO scared. Strength can help with the first part, in the form of circumstance modifiers--but they can come from somewhere else, too, JUST as effectively. "Hi, I'm the archmage of the hill; I sunk the Isle of the Dragon Lords, and I'm here to make you an offer you can't refuse," if believed, is going to be as good or better than the barbarian that can use the wagon as an improvised melee weapon.
dpity1 02-24-07, 12:20 AM	I'm...pretty sure I've seen a strength based intimidate in one or more splat books. It had a ruling where you can use your strength score in place of charisma when doing something threatening in a strength-related manner. (Bending pipes, etc.) I'm thinking sword and fist? A sidebar, I think. In response to the idea that physical strength doesn't much matter, or can't be judged. Well, in some cases I'd say it can. The neighborhood half-orc schoolyard bully should really be able to add his strength score to any roll to steal the halflings lunch money, as long as he exhibits said strength by, say, smashing his fist into a locker. Insert that into a more battle appropriate situation: An ettin should be able to use it's strength score to threaten and cajole a group of ogers as long the ettin can exhibit it's strength, say, by smashing down a tree (Or small house) the ogers would be unable to smash. Just my opinion, and vague memories.
Geogoose 02-24-07, 12:38 AM	Once you start allowing other scores to drive intimidate, like STR, where will that lead? What about the Rogue who wants to use DEX to Intimidate with his unerring accuracy with a ranged weapon or his ability to get the jump on you and sneak attack. Or the Wizard who wants to Intimidate based on his knowledge of 1001 ways to transmute/disfigure/curse/trap the soul you. The STR stat isn't always the most frightening thing to every person in a world of Fantasy monsters and High Magic. Charisma is the stat social interactions are based off for a reason. It represents you ability to "sell" Intimidate. Remember, to use the Intimidate skill to change an NPC reaction you need to spend a full minute's worth of interaction with the target, not a simple "Me smash!". Finally, schoolyard bullies and Thugs are poor examples of the skill Intimidate. They actually beat on you and make real threats saying they will stop if you give in. The Intimidate skill requires ONLY the minute of interaction to work. Think Princess Bride when Wesley is still mostly paralyzed yet talks Humperdink into such a frightful state he surrenders.
Geogoose 02-24-07, 12:44 AM	With all that said, it is well within the spirit of the skill Intimidate to allow players to do something extrordinary for a circumstance modifier or use the Aid Another action. The Barbarian who just broke a solid oak door in half or the Wizard who recently polymorphed someone's friend into a duck both might be deserving of a circumstance bonus.
Someone 02-24-07, 01:16 AM	The rewriting of OP statement goes something like this: "the barbarian with max ranks in Intimidate should be better at it than the bard relying on a high-Cha default." Unless the bard has really high Cha (or the barbarian has really low Cha), the ranks will win over the attribute.
Kintara 02-24-07, 01:36 AM	Any argument regarding Strength as a substitute for Charisma with Intimidate is just without basis. In my opinion, there's simply no way you can argue that Charisma is ever not completely relevant to an attempt to intimidate someone. By definition, it is. Strength, even when relevant, is never totally relevant, not as totally as charisma is. Adding your strength bonus and charisma bonus is at least plausible to me in theory, but the problem is that the bonus would likely be completely disproportionate and hard to balance. I mean your size category, which pretty much covers what it means to be all physically intimidating (and would apply to a half-orc intimidating a halfling), is already covered in the rules. Any effect Strength would have shouldn't top being twice as tall and like eight times as heavy, which means any strength bonus add to intimidate should be less than four. Which leads to the suggestion already mentioned more than once, which is the standard +2 circumstance bonus. Apply it when it makes sense.
Part-Human2 02-24-07, 01:45 AM	DM pg 33 sidebar "Variant: Skills with Different Abilities" I too remember seeing a STR-based Intimidate rule but I can't find it!
Kintara 02-24-07, 01:48 AM	DM pg 33 sidebar "Variant: Skills with Different Abilities" I too remember seeing a STR-based Intimidate rule but I can't find it!I think it's in Masters of the Wild. Not that that changes my opinion. ;)
dpity1 02-24-07, 01:54 AM	Try Sword and Fist, If I was a gambling man I'd be it's in there. Of course, I don't happen to *own* a sword and fist, though I'll try and check at the game tomorrow. (One of them is bound to own the bloody freaking thing, unless they lost that just like Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, a Players Handbook, a DMs guide, and half our dice...) And I'd say that intimidate cannot really be considered to be charisma relevant either. The skill is based on scaring them in many ways, which comes down to three things: 1: I can actually kill you, and I'm not lying. Which would require a show of "strength". (Which could, in fact, be a fireball, a fist through a block of wood, or an undead army) 2: I can't kill you, but I can make you think I'm dangerous to you! Which would simply be bluffing. 3: I can't kill you, and I'm bad at lying, but I'm smart enough to know what would scare you! Which would, arguably, be an intelligence based skill to determine whether you can figure out what they'd fear. In other words, the Intimidate skill can, arguably, be dependent on just about anything. Then again, most skills don't make sense. (I've never pictured a blacksmith NPC as having an int of 18 and a str of 6, despite the fact the rules say that even though you're to weak to hold a hammer, only brain power matters to craft.)
Kintara 02-24-07, 02:02 AM	Try Sword and Fist, If I was a gambling man I'd be it's in there. Of course, I don't happen to *own* a sword and fist, though I'll try and check at the game tomorrow. (One of them is bound to own the bloody freaking thing, unless they lost that just like Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, a Players Handbook, a DMs guide, and half our dice...) And I'd say that intimidate cannot really be considered to be charisma relevant either. The skill is based on scaring them in many ways, which comes down to three things: 1: I can actually kill you, and I'm not lying. Which would require a show of "strength". (Which could, in fact, be a fireball, a fist through a block of wood, or an undead army) 2: I can't kill you, but I can make you think I'm dangerous to you! Which would simply be bluffing. 3: I can't kill you, and I'm bad at lying, but I'm smart enough to know what would scare you! Which would, arguably, be an intelligence based skill to determine whether you can figure out what they'd fear. In other words, the Intimidate skill can, arguably, be dependent on just about anything. Then again, most skills don't make sense. (I've never pictured a blacksmith NPC as having an int of 18 and a str of 6, despite the fact the rules say that even though you're to weak to hold a hammer, only brain power matters to craft.)Nope. Intimidation isn't rational. It's a manipulation. Manipulation is Charisma based. It's as simple as that. Edit: To be specific, it's a manipulation to get someone to do what you want through fear. Fear is an emotion. You can use a lie towards that end (which could be a circumstance bonus dependent on a Bluff roll, if you want), but really what intimidation is is being able to make someone feel cowed by you. You don't need to let rationality enter into it, nor do you need to say anything. You just need to make someone afraid of you enough that they do what you want them to do (or spook them enough that they get shaken up). They don't need to know why they are scared. They just need to feel it. That's why Charisma always matters.
Part-Human2 02-24-07, 11:09 AM	Masters of the Wild pg 18, Variant Intimidation Rules: Intimidate Through Strength. I'll quote a little; Sometimes it's appropriate to change the key ability score of a particular skill. While Intimidation is usually a function of Charisma, this rule allows the barbarian to apply his Strenght modifier to Intimidate checks. This assumes, of course, that he accompanies such attempts with appropriate displays of might, such as breaking objects of showing off impressive muscles."
oracle71 02-24-07, 01:28 PM	Nope. Intimidation isn't rational. It's a manipulation. Manipulation is Charisma based. It's as simple as that. Edit: To be specific, it's a manipulation to get someone to do what you want through fear. Fear is an emotion. You can use a lie towards that end (which could be a circumstance bonus dependent on a Bluff roll, if you want), but really what intimidation is is being able to make someone feel cowed by you. You don't need to let rationality enter into it, nor do you need to say anything. You just need to make someone afraid of you enough that they do what you want them to do (or spook them enough that they get shaken up). They don't need to know why they are scared. They just need to feel it. That's why Charisma always matters. This is an excellent point. Remember, intimidation isn't about terrifying someone. People who are absolutely terrified tend to become panicky, stupid, and unpredictable. Intimidation is about scaring someone just enough to make them do what you want. That is a function of charisma. There are certain situations when an appropriate display of some other ability may also affect someone's ability to intimidate another, but those situations are not the norm.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-24-07, 01:39 PM	Finally, schoolyard bullies and Thugs are poor examples of the skill Intimidate. They actually beat on you and make real threats saying they will stop if you give in. The Intimidate skill requires ONLY the minute of interaction to work. They're bad examples for other reasons as well. See, if someone successfully intimidates you, they can give you a weapon and put themselves into a situation in which they'd be unable to defend themselves, and you will not attack them. Hell, depending on the level of success, they might even guard your back. If a bully does that, well, they're going to end up being hit repeatedly with said weapon.
nameneeded 02-24-07, 05:10 PM	At the start of this thread I already has my answer. I was gonna say provided you do something to show off your strength then you should be able to make an Intimidate check. After reading it though I must admit I am sceptical of that. For lots of the reasons above. I mean it wouldn't stop with stats. Why couldn't I make a heal check to decribe the collapsed lung and damage to nerves and blood vessels and how you will drown in your own blood as soon as my rapier slides out of your chest? If it was important for you to include it in your game I would allow the strength based check modified as per rules for crowds and such but also would have you incur a penalty for every STR or CHR point that someone has higher than yours that you are trying to intimidate. So there you are trying to intimidate the tavern doorman who has 12STR with your 16STR. No prob, have at her. But then his partner shows up with his 18STR causing you to try to intimidate again but now with a -2 (plus any other mods for being out number etc. etc.), or if the partner had a CHR of 18 you would inccur the minuses as he just isn't impress by the show of your mighty pecks of flexing. The way I see it is while size matters it dosen't matter to all people. That would be my house rule if really really needed. Otherwise I would stay as per rules.