Stunning Fist as a grapple check? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Stunning Fist as a grapple check? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Orenmir
01-19-08, 12:01 AM I thought I would surely find out if you could use Stunning Fist as the result of a successful grapple check in the FAQ or the search feature. No dice. Probably because stunning while grappling seems useless. But, feat-granted abilities that take the place of Stunning Fist such as Weakening Touch and Freezing the Lifeblood would be rather useful in a grapple.

So, my questions...

Can you use Stunning Fist as a result of a successful grapple check?
Can you use Weakening Touch (or Freezing the Lifeblood) as a result of a successful grapple check?

Current answer tally (as of 1/20, 7:10 am MST):

YES: 1
NO: 3
Orenmir
01-19-08, 12:43 PM I'm glad to discover this is so hard to answer! Here's my hang up...

On one side, the grappling rules specifically separate attacking in a grapple (only with a light or natural weapon with a -4 penalty) and using a grapple check to inflict unarmed damage. This would lead me to believe that I would need to perform an actual attack in order to use Stunning Fist or any of its substitutions (like Weakening Touch).

On the other hand, the grappling rules also use the text: Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack, when describing inflicting unarmed damage as a result of a successful grapple check. This makes me think that the attack I am putting my grapple check in place of could be a Stunning Fist attack (or any of its substitutions).

Any thoughts?
Mirannan
01-19-08, 02:23 PM The text of the grappling rules specifically says that one of the options once you have successfully scored a grapple (done the touch AC hit and confirmed the grapple with an opposed roll) is to do whatever damage you normally do with unarmed attacks - which to my mind includes the fact that the damage is lethal, and slightly less clearly includes any specials (like stunning fist) that the monk has the option to include in the hit.

This also makes sense from the RP point of view. Monks gain their fighting powers partly because they know where to hit, accurately, for the most damage - maybe while you're grappled the monk finds a pressure point?

Incidentally, a mid-level monk has a very nasty combo available, all of which, together, only take up one attack. Improved Trip to drop the enemy to the floor, and in the process get a free attack. Improved Grapple to have that free hit not make the monk susceptible to being attacked while he is trying to grab the opponent - and then make the grapple as part of the grapple attack sequence (which uses touch AC as well) and get a free go at doing his lethal damage.

OK, it's three attacks and an opposed roll, and a Fort save for the opponent, all of which have to work - but after one attack the opponent is then prone, grappled, stunned (which means he can't get out of the grapple next round) and taking two sets of (about) 1D10+2 automatic lethal damage. Nasty if it works. But hey, monks have to have some compensation for their melee weakness!
Tsuul
01-19-08, 03:13 PM On the other hand, the grappling rules also use the text: Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attackYour other thoughts were more correct.

Would you like a salad in place of a triple cheeseburger? One raises your cholesterol while the other doesn't. That phrase is merely telling you where and how many salads you may take.
Orenmir
01-19-08, 06:12 PM Would you like a salad in place of a triple cheeseburger? One raises your cholesterol while the other doesn't. That phrase is merely telling you where and how many salads you may take.

You lost me, and made me hungry at the same time!

Salad = grapple check
Cheeseburger = attack
Cholesterol = Stunning Fist?

I'm not sure where you're going.
Tsuul
01-19-08, 07:46 PM "in place of an attack"
It is just telling you when and how many grapple checks you can do.
You can alternate between "damage your opponent" and "attack your opponent" if you have more then one attack per round.
Orenmir
01-19-08, 11:49 PM "in place of an attack"
It is just telling you when and how many grapple checks you can do.
You can alternate between "damage your opponent" and "attack your opponent" if you have more then one attack per round.

Ah, got it. So you believe Stunning Fist can not be done with a grapple check because a grapple check to inflict damage is not the same as an attack. A sound argument.

That brings up an even broader issue... If a grapple check to inflict damage is not considered an attack, what modifications can be applied, if any? These come to mind:

Fiery Fist
Magic Fang
Ki Straps
Necklace of Natural Attacks
Amulet of Mighty Fists
Any Spell or Power delivered with a touch attack
Stunning Fist
Weakening Touch
Freezing the Life Blood
Pressure Point Strike
Pain Touch
Stone Monkey
Pharaoh's Fist

Are all of these useless to a grappler? Can't these be performed as part of a successful grapple check? I know the easy answer to this is: All can be used as an attack during a grapple. But, an optimized grappler has concentrated on raising his grapple check, and has a considerably higher chance of success with a grapple check than an attack with a -4 penalty. Asking a grappler to attack during a grapple is equivalent to asking a Fighter to use unarmed strike instead of his +4 sword -- it's completely against his main strength.

I'm curious about what others think. I'm still on the fence. If that whole list is nerfed, grappling is nerfed! Well, at least at high levels.
JamesMaissen
01-20-08, 12:31 AM I'm curious about what others think. I'm still on the fence. If that whole list is nerfed, grappling is nerfed! Well, at least at high levels.

Grappling is a different creature than making an attack roll. My current grappler is likely to succeed on a natural 1 against many, many targets.

But things that effect attack rolls don't help in making grapple checks. But then again neither do skill boosts, or save modifiers...

Grapple is powerful.. it's not the whole world though.

If you have things to do with attacks.. you can always attack while in the grapple (with a single light weapon, natural weapon or unarmed strike) to deliver them.

-James
Orenmir
01-20-08, 12:48 AM Grappling is a different creature than making an attack roll.

I can see that.

I'm glad a fellow grappler responded... So, I'm sure you have feats, items, and other sources (powers?) that increase your grapple check. Do you never modify your grappling with such things like I mentioned (from the list above)?
JamesMaissen
01-20-08, 01:54 AM I can see that.

I'm glad a fellow grappler responded... So, I'm sure you have feats, items, and other sources (powers?) that increase your grapple check. Do you never modify your grappling with such things like I mentioned (from the list above)?

I don't know the sources for all that you listed, so I can't say that none of them apply. Those that I recognize do not apply, at least not directly.

Mind you, once you hit someone with a weakening touch the penalty they take on their strength lowers their respective grapple check...

The main basics of the grapple check are BAB, Strength and Size. Increasing those are sure ways to increase your grapple check.

Polymorph is another wonderful augment.

There are items that increase a grapple check. Those either modify the things above, or they expressly increase the grapple check. There are 2-3 in the Magic Item Compendium if I recall correctly.

As to feats, since you seem to have Sandstorm.. Scorpion's Grasp is a fun feat for you. I've really enjoyed it. It is *very* strong.

-James
PS: As a side note the thing I enjoy the most when my character is grappling something else is to move it past all the fellow PCs... especially the rogues.
jaelis
01-20-08, 02:12 AM I third that you can't use Stunning Fist on a grapple check, since it is not an attack. Likewise, you can't use Power Attack, Whirlwind Attack, or Weapon Finesse. All those abilities apply only to attack rolls.
Orenmir
01-20-08, 09:16 AM The main basics of the grapple check are BAB, Strength and Size. Increasing those are sure ways to increase your grapple check.

Polymorph is another wonderful augment.

There are items that increase a grapple check. Those either modify the things above, or they expressly increase the grapple check. There are 2-3 in the Magic Item Compendium if I recall correctly.

Agreed. Yet, these are only ways of increasing your grapple check (number). My goal here is it also find ways to modify its outcome. Instead of mere damage, I'd love to be able to add things like Freezing the Lifeblood or Pharaoh's Fist to a successful grapple check.
Orenmir
01-21-08, 10:42 AM A bump, for more opinions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orenmir 01-19-08, 12:01 AM	I thought I would surely find out if you could use Stunning Fist as the result of a successful grapple check in the FAQ or the search feature. No dice. Probably because stunning while grappling seems useless. But, feat-granted abilities that take the place of Stunning Fist such as Weakening Touch and Freezing the Lifeblood would be rather useful in a grapple. So, my questions... Can you use Stunning Fist as a result of a successful grapple check? Can you use Weakening Touch (or Freezing the Lifeblood) as a result of a successful grapple check? Current answer tally (as of 1/20, 7:10 am MST): YES: 1 NO: 3
Orenmir 01-19-08, 12:43 PM	I'm glad to discover this is so hard to answer! Here's my hang up... On one side, the grappling rules specifically separate attacking in a grapple (only with a light or natural weapon with a -4 penalty) and using a grapple check to inflict unarmed damage. This would lead me to believe that I would need to perform an actual attack in order to use Stunning Fist or any of its substitutions (like Weakening Touch). On the other hand, the grappling rules also use the text: Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack, when describing inflicting unarmed damage as a result of a successful grapple check. This makes me think that the attack I am putting my grapple check in place of could be a Stunning Fist attack (or any of its substitutions). Any thoughts?
Mirannan 01-19-08, 02:23 PM	The text of the grappling rules specifically says that one of the options once you have successfully scored a grapple (done the touch AC hit and confirmed the grapple with an opposed roll) is to do whatever damage you normally do with unarmed attacks - which to my mind includes the fact that the damage is lethal, and slightly less clearly includes any specials (like stunning fist) that the monk has the option to include in the hit. This also makes sense from the RP point of view. Monks gain their fighting powers partly because they know where to hit, accurately, for the most damage - maybe while you're grappled the monk finds a pressure point? Incidentally, a mid-level monk has a very nasty combo available, all of which, together, only take up one attack. Improved Trip to drop the enemy to the floor, and in the process get a free attack. Improved Grapple to have that free hit not make the monk susceptible to being attacked while he is trying to grab the opponent - and then make the grapple as part of the grapple attack sequence (which uses touch AC as well) and get a free go at doing his lethal damage. OK, it's three attacks and an opposed roll, and a Fort save for the opponent, all of which have to work - but after one attack the opponent is then prone, grappled, stunned (which means he can't get out of the grapple next round) and taking two sets of (about) 1D10+2 automatic lethal damage. Nasty if it works. But hey, monks have to have some compensation for their melee weakness!
Tsuul 01-19-08, 03:13 PM	On the other hand, the grappling rules also use the text: Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attackYour other thoughts were more correct. Would you like a salad in place of a triple cheeseburger? One raises your cholesterol while the other doesn't. That phrase is merely telling you where and how many salads you may take.
Orenmir 01-19-08, 06:12 PM	Would you like a salad in place of a triple cheeseburger? One raises your cholesterol while the other doesn't. That phrase is merely telling you where and how many salads you may take. You lost me, and made me hungry at the same time! Salad = grapple check Cheeseburger = attack Cholesterol = Stunning Fist? I'm not sure where you're going.
Tsuul 01-19-08, 07:46 PM	"in place of an attack" It is just telling you when and how many grapple checks you can do. You can alternate between "damage your opponent" and "attack your opponent" if you have more then one attack per round.
Orenmir 01-19-08, 11:49 PM	"in place of an attack" It is just telling you when and how many grapple checks you can do. You can alternate between "damage your opponent" and "attack your opponent" if you have more then one attack per round. Ah, got it. So you believe Stunning Fist can not be done with a grapple check because a grapple check to inflict damage is not the same as an attack. A sound argument. That brings up an even broader issue... If a grapple check to inflict damage is not considered an attack, what modifications can be applied, if any? These come to mind: Fiery Fist Magic Fang Ki Straps Necklace of Natural Attacks Amulet of Mighty Fists Any Spell or Power delivered with a touch attack Stunning Fist Weakening Touch Freezing the Life Blood Pressure Point Strike Pain Touch Stone Monkey Pharaoh's Fist Are all of these useless to a grappler? Can't these be performed as part of a successful grapple check? I know the easy answer to this is: All can be used as an attack during a grapple. But, an optimized grappler has concentrated on raising his grapple check, and has a considerably higher chance of success with a grapple check than an attack with a -4 penalty. Asking a grappler to attack during a grapple is equivalent to asking a Fighter to use unarmed strike instead of his +4 sword -- it's completely against his main strength. I'm curious about what others think. I'm still on the fence. If that whole list is nerfed, grappling is nerfed! Well, at least at high levels.
JamesMaissen 01-20-08, 12:31 AM	I'm curious about what others think. I'm still on the fence. If that whole list is nerfed, grappling is nerfed! Well, at least at high levels. Grappling is a different creature than making an attack roll. My current grappler is likely to succeed on a natural 1 against many, many targets. But things that effect attack rolls don't help in making grapple checks. But then again neither do skill boosts, or save modifiers... Grapple is powerful.. it's not the whole world though. If you have things to do with attacks.. you can always attack while in the grapple (with a single light weapon, natural weapon or unarmed strike) to deliver them. -James
Orenmir 01-20-08, 12:48 AM	Grappling is a different creature than making an attack roll. I can see that. I'm glad a fellow grappler responded... So, I'm sure you have feats, items, and other sources (powers?) that increase your grapple check. Do you never modify your grappling with such things like I mentioned (from the list above)?
JamesMaissen 01-20-08, 01:54 AM	I can see that. I'm glad a fellow grappler responded... So, I'm sure you have feats, items, and other sources (powers?) that increase your grapple check. Do you never modify your grappling with such things like I mentioned (from the list above)? I don't know the sources for all that you listed, so I can't say that none of them apply. Those that I recognize do not apply, at least not directly. Mind you, once you hit someone with a weakening touch the penalty they take on their strength lowers their respective grapple check... The main basics of the grapple check are BAB, Strength and Size. Increasing those are sure ways to increase your grapple check. Polymorph is another wonderful augment. There are items that increase a grapple check. Those either modify the things above, or they expressly increase the grapple check. There are 2-3 in the Magic Item Compendium if I recall correctly. As to feats, since you seem to have Sandstorm.. Scorpion's Grasp is a fun feat for you. I've really enjoyed it. It is very strong. -James PS: As a side note the thing I enjoy the most when my character is grappling something else is to move it past all the fellow PCs... especially the rogues.
jaelis 01-20-08, 02:12 AM	I third that you can't use Stunning Fist on a grapple check, since it is not an attack. Likewise, you can't use Power Attack, Whirlwind Attack, or Weapon Finesse. All those abilities apply only to attack rolls.
Orenmir 01-20-08, 09:16 AM	The main basics of the grapple check are BAB, Strength and Size. Increasing those are sure ways to increase your grapple check. Polymorph is another wonderful augment. There are items that increase a grapple check. Those either modify the things above, or they expressly increase the grapple check. There are 2-3 in the Magic Item Compendium if I recall correctly. Agreed. Yet, these are only ways of increasing your grapple check (number). My goal here is it also find ways to modify its outcome. Instead of mere damage, I'd love to be able to add things like Freezing the Lifeblood or Pharaoh's Fist to a successful grapple check.
Orenmir 01-21-08, 10:42 AM	A bump, for more opinions.