Sudden Metamagic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sudden Metamagic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Presmer
03-23-07, 09:36 PM I'm having a debate with a friend of mine over Sudden Metamagic feats. He argues that because it doesn't say in the feat description that they don't increase casting time for spontaneous casters that they would still have to spend a full round casting to apply the feat.

I've been telling him that it says in the beginning of the feats chapter of Complete Arcane that Sudden Metamagic feats do not modify a spell slot, and since that's the reason for the extra casting time that they wouldn't require the full round. Besides that, if that were the case, they might as well give warmages the standard Empower, Maximize, etc instead of the Sudden versions as bonus feats.

Who's correct?
The_Ditto
03-23-07, 10:00 PM I'm having a debate with a friend of mine over Sudden Metamagic feats. He argues that because it doesn't say in the feat description that they don't increase casting time for spontaneous casters that they would still have to spend a full round casting to apply the feat.

I've been telling him that it says in the beginning of the feats chapter of Complete Arcane that Sudden Metamagic feats do not modify a spell slot, and since that's the reason for the extra casting time that they wouldn't require the full round. Besides that, if that were the case, they might as well give warmages the standard Empower, Maximize, etc instead of the Sudden versions as bonus feats.

Who's correct?

The way I understand it is that Sudden metamagics do not increase casting time, they are a "special" form of metamagic feat applied differently ... I searched the FAQ, however, and didn't see anything conclusive. There was, however, 1 entry talking about spell-like abilities, and it referred to Sudden metamagics as being the exception to the rule in that regard ... I think that's the common theme with Sudden metamagics ... they're the exceptions ...
runestar
03-23-07, 10:53 PM Sudden metamagic feats are ultimately metamagic feats. Use the same limitations when applying them to spontaneous spells. This means that sudden quicken is useless to a sorc as well.:)
Pandaemoni
03-23-07, 10:59 PM In the Miniatures Handbook, it was clear that they did not increase casting time...it was stated expressly in the general language that described "Sudden" feats.

When they ported the feats to Complete Arcane, they did not reprint this "general" language, just the feats themselves. There are two ways to interpret this:

1) Because Complete Arcane doesn't expressly contradict the rules from the Miniatures Handbook, the Miniatures handbook rule still applies and they do not increase casting time to a full round action for spontaneous casters.

2) When they carried the feats to Complete Arcane, they chose not to reprint that rule, and thus implicitly rejected it. The reprinted feats work as written, and as written, they are still subject to the normal rules for spontaneous casters using metamagic.

Personally, I go with (1), but either is a defensible interpretation of the rules as I understand them.
TessarrianDM
03-24-07, 12:52 AM The Complete Arcane book is newer, therefore it has precedence. The only advantage the Sudden Metamagic feats have for a spontaneous caster is that they do not increase the spell slot required when modifying the spell. They still take a full-round action (or more) to apply.
Pandaemoni
03-24-07, 03:17 AM The Complete Arcane book is newer, therefore it has precedence. The only advantage the Sudden Metamagic feats have for a spontaneous caster is that they do not increase the spell slot required when modifying the spell. They still take a full-round action (or more) to apply.

But the newer material only "repeals" the old material when the two conflict. In this case, Complete Arcane doesn't expressly revoke the rule in the Miniatures Handbook, and we are left guessing whether they intended to implicitly revoke it.

If one favors implicit revocations, then one might argue for many more such "unspoken" rules changes (ones which I think everyone would agree were not intended) any time a new book implicated a prior rule without expressly reaffirming that rule as written. For example, the Complete Adventurer describes new uses for existing skills, but never expressly says that the old uses are still valid. No one would argue that Complete Adventurer "revoked" the old uses for those skills, as listed in the PHB just because they failed to expressly reaffirm them. If it were the author's intent to revoke *those* rules, we'd all demand that they make that crystal clear.

Because implicit rules changes will always be debatable, I believe that should be the general rule of interpretation. To wit, implicit rule changes should be the disfavored interpretation of any new text unless the intent of the authors to revoke the existing rules is otherwise very clearly evident. In the case of the sudden metamagics, I do not believe the intent to revoke the original mechanic is very clear. It's just as likely the author was so familiar with the feats that he failed to notice that he didn't carry the one crucial line forward into Complete Arcane (indeed, the author was comfortable enough with them, that he did not feel they needed any generic explanatory text).

Additionally, they are called "sudden" metamagics. The main point of these feats was clearly to be their quick use, not their ability to be used without increasing the spell level. Moreover, the raison d'etre of these feats was that they be used by the Warmage, a spontaneous caster. Under the contrary interpretation, the "sudden" metamagics aren't "sudden" at all in the hands of the class for which they were first created. They might as well be renamed, since they are only "sudden" in the hands of prepared casters. Perhaps "Efficient Metamagic Feats" would be more apt.

Finally, does it really overpower the spontaneous casters to have access to "sudden" versions of these feats? Relative to the prepared casters, I'd say no. It somewhat evens the playing field between spontaneous and prepared casters, but imo the balance of power is still in the hands of the prepared casters either way.

It is, I concede, an eminently moot point, but those are the reasons I favor the more expansive interpretation of the feats.
TessarrianDM
03-24-07, 09:39 AM I stand corrected.
Merestil Haye
03-24-07, 12:39 PM Pandeamoni : A very nice argument. :)

I ruled the other way, and ultimately did so based on a simple test. They did not give the Warmage Sudden Quicken.

Now, that would have been a fine capstone for the Warmage, who gets a bonus Metamagic feat at 20th level. Really very beneficial. But it was not awarded. I therefore decided that the intention was that Sudden Metamagics were bound by the rule that metamagic feats applied by spontaneous casters do lengthen the casting time.

I want to consider the points you raise in deciding whether to reverse this ruling, primarily because I agree with what you that additional uses for skills don't mean that the Core uses are no longer valid. I'm not quite convinced the analogy applies to this situation though.
Presmer
03-24-07, 03:45 PM What about the fact that they don't modify a spell slot? In Complete Arcane it says that the Sudden feats are usable on warlock invocations and other spell-like abilities because they do not modify a spell slot. Given that, having them increase the casting time on the spells of spontaneous casters wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Dagonus
03-24-07, 06:20 PM Here's the deal though:

You CANNOT be expected to have the Miniatures Book AND the Complete Arcane. You CAN be expected to have the Core three. Thus, ONLY the core 3 and the CA can be used for any ruling regarding the Sudden Metamagic. Additionally the Miniatures book was printed for 3.0 and the CA was printed for 3.5 so its clearly an updated version. Because the name of the feat did not change we can ONLY use the latest printed version because otherwise anything in the 3.0 PHB that isn't not explicitly contradicted in the 3.5 book would work as well. 3.5 always takes precedense over 3.0.

The fact that they are called "sudden" is irrelevant. "Quicken Spell" is called quicken but it sure doesn't "quicken" a sorc's spell. So either the metamagic rule doesn't apply to quicken spell AND to Sudden quicken or it applies to both. The "Metamagic" modifier on the feat supercedes the name being "sudden." Otherwise I could make a spell called "Undissmissable Odor" and if I put (d) next to the spell's duration.... the spell is dissmissable, whether its name "Undissmissable..." or not.
Merestil Haye
03-24-07, 07:00 PM Additionally the Miniatures book was printed for 3.0 and the CA was printed for 3.5 so its clearly an updated version. Because the name of the feat did not change we can ONLY use the latest printed version because otherwise anything in the 3.0 PHB that isn't not explicitly contradicted in the 3.5 book would work as well. 3.5 always takes precedense over 3.0.Let's just knock this on the head.

WotC's published policy is that any book first printed after the core 3.5 rulebooks is itself a 3.5 rulebook, unless it definitively states otherwise.

The 3.5 core rulebooks were published in August 2003. The first publication of the Miniatures Handbook was October 2003.

Miniatures Handbook is 3.5.
Dagonus
03-24-07, 07:16 PM Fair enough Good catch. (tangentially you'd think they'd say "This is a 3.5 book" like they do on other 3.5 books on the inside title page, but doesn't change it.)

Doesn't change CA being a significantly later printing or the fact that CA can't expect you to have the Miniature's book.

Edit: Also, PHB3.5 was July '03.
1CentSage
03-24-07, 07:28 PM Apart from the descriptions in the Miniatures Handbook there is to the best of my knowledge nothing in the books that creates an exception for the sudden metamagic feats from the general rule. (Note that the FAQ refers to the Miniatures Handbook in a question about the Warmage on top of p.22 in a way that suggests imho that the feats in CA were considered as a kind of reprint from the Miniatures Handbook)

However I think it is nevertheless reasonable to make an exception because the the reason for the increase in casting time for spontaneous casters given in the PHB on p.88 is that it takes more time to apply a metamagic feat to a spell on the fly than to prepare it ahead of time. This reasoning is however not applicable to the sudden feats because they spells are never prepared ahead of time with sudden feats by any spellcasting class.

Half serious side remark on spontaneous casers and metamagic feats:
In the PHB on p.88 the "increase casting time" rule mentions (naturally) only sorcerers and bards. I found no statement in the class description of the warmage for example that the same rule applies to them ...
Pandaemoni
03-25-07, 02:46 AM Here's the deal though:

You CANNOT be expected to have the Miniatures Book AND the Complete Arcane.

You'd think so, but...note that the Warmage gets a little feat called Sudden Enlarge at 10th level. That feat only appears in the Miniatures Handbook. It's no where to be found in Complete Arcane. With that one, it's hard to argue that the rules in the Miniatures Handbook don't apply to it.

The fact that they are called "sudden" is irrelevant. "Quicken Spell" is called quicken but it sure doesn't "quicken" a sorc's spell. So either the metamagic rule doesn't apply to quicken spell AND to Sudden quicken or it applies to both.

Quicken Spell is a rather special case because it expressly says in the feat that it "can't be applied to any spell cast spontaneously". Sudden Quicken, in contrast, doesn't say that.

Again, that might be because they thought it was obvious, or it might be because they think Sudden Quicken can be applied to spontaneously cast spells.

This would be a good one for the Sage to answer.
Presmer
03-25-07, 07:28 AM Any way to increase the chance of your question getting answered? I'd really like to know.
runestar
03-25-07, 07:45 AM Barring cust service, I think pretty much all the angles have been covered. It all boils down on how your dm plans to rule.:)
WayneTheGame
03-25-07, 10:43 AM My god.. the feats are clearly intended to allow metamagic to be used without the normal increase in time. I don't mean this insulting, but does anyone use common sense when looking at the rules anymore? Every little minute detail doesn't have to be exactly spelled out, you know. Look beyond the words to the intention of the feat based on what it's called and who it's given to (i.e. the Warmage, who is a spontaneous caster) instead of rules-lawyering and quibbling over semantics.
Merestil Haye
03-25-07, 10:54 AM You'd think so, but...note that the Warmage gets a little feat called Sudden Enlarge at 10th level. That feat only appears in the Miniatures Handbook. It's no where to be found in Complete Arcane. With that one, it's hard to argue that the rules in the Miniatures Handbook don't apply to it.Iirc WotC have publically admitted that that was a transcription error - they simply missed it out by accident.

Quicken Spell is a rather special case because it expressly says in the feat that it "can't be applied to any spell cast spontaneously". Sudden Quicken, in contrast, doesn't say that.

Again, that might be because they thought it was obvious, or it might be because they think Sudden Quicken can be applied to spontaneously cast spells.It doesn't have to. The rules covering the application of metamagic feats to spontaneous cast spells are covered in the rules for the [Metamagic] type feats. Sudden Quicken is of this type and follows those rules unless it says otherwise.

I'm still thinking about that issue you raised in your first post though.
Oliver D'Argent
03-25-07, 02:31 PM Personally, I think that the verbage regarding the Sudden metamagic feats not being included in Complete Arcane was simply an oversight.

I have always been under the impression that the reason that spontaneous casters have to take extra time to use normal metamagic feats is to make up for the fact that they don't have to prepare their spells in advance. Prepared casters have to commit to using normal metamagic feats in advance, but do not have to increase their casting time.

The words in every Sudden metamagic feat, "or specially preparing it ahead of time" and the fact that these feats can be used by a Warlock (a class that can spontaneously use spell-like abilities), tells me that the "balance" factor of requiring extra casting time for a spontaneous caster to use normal metamagic feats does not apply to the Sudden metamagic feats. Additionally, since the Sudden metamagic feats can only be used once per day, they are self-limiting.
Presmer
03-25-07, 08:04 PM Couple of things I want to address:

Look beyond the words to the intention of the feat based on what it's called and who it's given to (i.e. the Warmage, who is a spontaneous caster) instead of rules-lawyering and quibbling over semantics.

While I agree with this, you can't argue that way because it becomes an argument of interpretation, and different people interpret things in different ways. In a debate of interpretation, no one is right or wrong, so we have to go by what's written down in black and white.

You CANNOT be expected to have the Miniatures Book AND the Complete Arcane. You CAN be expected to have the Core three. Thus, ONLY the core 3 and the CA can be used for any ruling regarding the Sudden Metamagic.

I'm assuming you say this because Complete Arcane is the book you have. What I take away from that is because the Miniatures Handbook is one you don't have, that it is therefore irrelevant, and that's not fair at all. Let's say someone had the Miniatures Handbook but not Complete Arcane and were making their judgment calls based on that. Would they be within their rights to say that what's written in Complete Arcane is irrelevant because they don't own the book? I don't think so.
Jackmojo
03-25-07, 08:31 PM Fair enough Good catch. (tangentially you'd think they'd say "This is a 3.5 book" like they do on other 3.5 books on the inside title page, but doesn't change it.)

Its printed on the back cover (third Paragraph).

Jack
Dagonus
03-25-07, 11:07 PM I'm assuming you say this because Complete Arcane is the book you have. What I take away from that is because the Miniatures Handbook is one you don't have, that it is therefore irrelevant, and that's not fair at all. Let's say someone had the Miniatures Handbook but not Complete Arcane and were making their judgment calls based on that. Would they be within their rights to say that what's written in Complete Arcane is irrelevant because they don't own the book? I don't think so.

They couldn't say CA was irrelevant because CA is the latest printing of the rule. (Unless Suddens were put in an even later book in which case it should be checked what THAT book says.) Additionally, if you look at the "requires ..." on each book they only list the DMG, Player's Handbook, and the Monster Manual as needed for the use of them. So it clearly does NOT assume the use of any books other than those and the book in question. (Either the Minature's Handbook OR the Complete Arcane, but not both.)

Edit: Also, I have both.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Presmer 03-23-07, 09:36 PM	I'm having a debate with a friend of mine over Sudden Metamagic feats. He argues that because it doesn't say in the feat description that they don't increase casting time for spontaneous casters that they would still have to spend a full round casting to apply the feat. I've been telling him that it says in the beginning of the feats chapter of Complete Arcane that Sudden Metamagic feats do not modify a spell slot, and since that's the reason for the extra casting time that they wouldn't require the full round. Besides that, if that were the case, they might as well give warmages the standard Empower, Maximize, etc instead of the Sudden versions as bonus feats. Who's correct?
The_Ditto 03-23-07, 10:00 PM	I'm having a debate with a friend of mine over Sudden Metamagic feats. He argues that because it doesn't say in the feat description that they don't increase casting time for spontaneous casters that they would still have to spend a full round casting to apply the feat. I've been telling him that it says in the beginning of the feats chapter of Complete Arcane that Sudden Metamagic feats do not modify a spell slot, and since that's the reason for the extra casting time that they wouldn't require the full round. Besides that, if that were the case, they might as well give warmages the standard Empower, Maximize, etc instead of the Sudden versions as bonus feats. Who's correct? The way I understand it is that Sudden metamagics do not increase casting time, they are a "special" form of metamagic feat applied differently ... I searched the FAQ, however, and didn't see anything conclusive. There was, however, 1 entry talking about spell-like abilities, and it referred to Sudden metamagics as being the exception to the rule in that regard ... I think that's the common theme with Sudden metamagics ... they're the exceptions ...
runestar 03-23-07, 10:53 PM	Sudden metamagic feats are ultimately metamagic feats. Use the same limitations when applying them to spontaneous spells. This means that sudden quicken is useless to a sorc as well.:)
Pandaemoni 03-23-07, 10:59 PM	In the Miniatures Handbook, it was clear that they did not increase casting time...it was stated expressly in the general language that described "Sudden" feats. When they ported the feats to Complete Arcane, they did not reprint this "general" language, just the feats themselves. There are two ways to interpret this: 1) Because Complete Arcane doesn't expressly contradict the rules from the Miniatures Handbook, the Miniatures handbook rule still applies and they do not increase casting time to a full round action for spontaneous casters. 2) When they carried the feats to Complete Arcane, they chose not to reprint that rule, and thus implicitly rejected it. The reprinted feats work as written, and as written, they are still subject to the normal rules for spontaneous casters using metamagic. Personally, I go with (1), but either is a defensible interpretation of the rules as I understand them.
TessarrianDM 03-24-07, 12:52 AM	The Complete Arcane book is newer, therefore it has precedence. The only advantage the Sudden Metamagic feats have for a spontaneous caster is that they do not increase the spell slot required when modifying the spell. They still take a full-round action (or more) to apply.
Pandaemoni 03-24-07, 03:17 AM	The Complete Arcane book is newer, therefore it has precedence. The only advantage the Sudden Metamagic feats have for a spontaneous caster is that they do not increase the spell slot required when modifying the spell. They still take a full-round action (or more) to apply. But the newer material only "repeals" the old material when the two conflict. In this case, Complete Arcane doesn't expressly revoke the rule in the Miniatures Handbook, and we are left guessing whether they intended to implicitly revoke it. If one favors implicit revocations, then one might argue for many more such "unspoken" rules changes (ones which I think everyone would agree were not intended) any time a new book implicated a prior rule without expressly reaffirming that rule as written. For example, the Complete Adventurer describes new uses for existing skills, but never expressly says that the old uses are still valid. No one would argue that Complete Adventurer "revoked" the old uses for those skills, as listed in the PHB just because they failed to expressly reaffirm them. If it were the author's intent to revoke those rules, we'd all demand that they make that crystal clear. Because implicit rules changes will always be debatable, I believe that should be the general rule of interpretation. To wit, implicit rule changes should be the disfavored interpretation of any new text unless the intent of the authors to revoke the existing rules is otherwise very clearly evident. In the case of the sudden metamagics, I do not believe the intent to revoke the original mechanic is very clear. It's just as likely the author was so familiar with the feats that he failed to notice that he didn't carry the one crucial line forward into Complete Arcane (indeed, the author was comfortable enough with them, that he did not feel they needed any generic explanatory text). Additionally, they are called "sudden" metamagics. The main point of these feats was clearly to be their quick use, not their ability to be used without increasing the spell level. Moreover, the raison d'etre of these feats was that they be used by the Warmage, a spontaneous caster. Under the contrary interpretation, the "sudden" metamagics aren't "sudden" at all in the hands of the class for which they were first created. They might as well be renamed, since they are only "sudden" in the hands of prepared casters. Perhaps "Efficient Metamagic Feats" would be more apt. Finally, does it really overpower the spontaneous casters to have access to "sudden" versions of these feats? Relative to the prepared casters, I'd say no. It somewhat evens the playing field between spontaneous and prepared casters, but imo the balance of power is still in the hands of the prepared casters either way. It is, I concede, an eminently moot point, but those are the reasons I favor the more expansive interpretation of the feats.
TessarrianDM 03-24-07, 09:39 AM	I stand corrected.
Merestil Haye 03-24-07, 12:39 PM	Pandeamoni : A very nice argument. :) I ruled the other way, and ultimately did so based on a simple test. They did not give the Warmage Sudden Quicken. Now, that would have been a fine capstone for the Warmage, who gets a bonus Metamagic feat at 20th level. Really very beneficial. But it was not awarded. I therefore decided that the intention was that Sudden Metamagics were bound by the rule that metamagic feats applied by spontaneous casters do lengthen the casting time. I want to consider the points you raise in deciding whether to reverse this ruling, primarily because I agree with what you that additional uses for skills don't mean that the Core uses are no longer valid. I'm not quite convinced the analogy applies to this situation though.
Presmer 03-24-07, 03:45 PM	What about the fact that they don't modify a spell slot? In Complete Arcane it says that the Sudden feats are usable on warlock invocations and other spell-like abilities because they do not modify a spell slot. Given that, having them increase the casting time on the spells of spontaneous casters wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Dagonus 03-24-07, 06:20 PM	Here's the deal though: You CANNOT be expected to have the Miniatures Book AND the Complete Arcane. You CAN be expected to have the Core three. Thus, ONLY the core 3 and the CA can be used for any ruling regarding the Sudden Metamagic. Additionally the Miniatures book was printed for 3.0 and the CA was printed for 3.5 so its clearly an updated version. Because the name of the feat did not change we can ONLY use the latest printed version because otherwise anything in the 3.0 PHB that isn't not explicitly contradicted in the 3.5 book would work as well. 3.5 always takes precedense over 3.0. The fact that they are called "sudden" is irrelevant. "Quicken Spell" is called quicken but it sure doesn't "quicken" a sorc's spell. So either the metamagic rule doesn't apply to quicken spell AND to Sudden quicken or it applies to both. The "Metamagic" modifier on the feat supercedes the name being "sudden." Otherwise I could make a spell called "Undissmissable Odor" and if I put (d) next to the spell's duration.... the spell is dissmissable, whether its name "Undissmissable..." or not.
Merestil Haye 03-24-07, 07:00 PM	Additionally the Miniatures book was printed for 3.0 and the CA was printed for 3.5 so its clearly an updated version. Because the name of the feat did not change we can ONLY use the latest printed version because otherwise anything in the 3.0 PHB that isn't not explicitly contradicted in the 3.5 book would work as well. 3.5 always takes precedense over 3.0.Let's just knock this on the head. WotC's published policy is that any book first printed after the core 3.5 rulebooks is itself a 3.5 rulebook, unless it definitively states otherwise. The 3.5 core rulebooks were published in August 2003. The first publication of the Miniatures Handbook was October 2003. Miniatures Handbook is 3.5.
Dagonus 03-24-07, 07:16 PM	Fair enough Good catch. (tangentially you'd think they'd say "This is a 3.5 book" like they do on other 3.5 books on the inside title page, but doesn't change it.) Doesn't change CA being a significantly later printing or the fact that CA can't expect you to have the Miniature's book. Edit: Also, PHB3.5 was July '03.
1CentSage 03-24-07, 07:28 PM	Apart from the descriptions in the Miniatures Handbook there is to the best of my knowledge nothing in the books that creates an exception for the sudden metamagic feats from the general rule. (Note that the FAQ refers to the Miniatures Handbook in a question about the Warmage on top of p.22 in a way that suggests imho that the feats in CA were considered as a kind of reprint from the Miniatures Handbook) However I think it is nevertheless reasonable to make an exception because the the reason for the increase in casting time for spontaneous casters given in the PHB on p.88 is that it takes more time to apply a metamagic feat to a spell on the fly than to prepare it ahead of time. This reasoning is however not applicable to the sudden feats because they spells are never prepared ahead of time with sudden feats by any spellcasting class. Half serious side remark on spontaneous casers and metamagic feats: In the PHB on p.88 the "increase casting time" rule mentions (naturally) only sorcerers and bards. I found no statement in the class description of the warmage for example that the same rule applies to them ...
Pandaemoni 03-25-07, 02:46 AM	Here's the deal though: You CANNOT be expected to have the Miniatures Book AND the Complete Arcane. You'd think so, but...note that the Warmage gets a little feat called Sudden Enlarge at 10th level. That feat only appears in the Miniatures Handbook. It's no where to be found in Complete Arcane. With that one, it's hard to argue that the rules in the Miniatures Handbook don't apply to it. The fact that they are called "sudden" is irrelevant. "Quicken Spell" is called quicken but it sure doesn't "quicken" a sorc's spell. So either the metamagic rule doesn't apply to quicken spell AND to Sudden quicken or it applies to both. Quicken Spell is a rather special case because it expressly says in the feat that it "can't be applied to any spell cast spontaneously". Sudden Quicken, in contrast, doesn't say that. Again, that might be because they thought it was obvious, or it might be because they think Sudden Quicken can be applied to spontaneously cast spells. This would be a good one for the Sage to answer.
Presmer 03-25-07, 07:28 AM	Any way to increase the chance of your question getting answered? I'd really like to know.
runestar 03-25-07, 07:45 AM	Barring cust service, I think pretty much all the angles have been covered. It all boils down on how your dm plans to rule.:)
WayneTheGame 03-25-07, 10:43 AM	My god.. the feats are clearly intended to allow metamagic to be used without the normal increase in time. I don't mean this insulting, but does anyone use common sense when looking at the rules anymore? Every little minute detail doesn't have to be exactly spelled out, you know. Look beyond the words to the intention of the feat based on what it's called and who it's given to (i.e. the Warmage, who is a spontaneous caster) instead of rules-lawyering and quibbling over semantics.
Merestil Haye 03-25-07, 10:54 AM	You'd think so, but...note that the Warmage gets a little feat called Sudden Enlarge at 10th level. That feat only appears in the Miniatures Handbook. It's no where to be found in Complete Arcane. With that one, it's hard to argue that the rules in the Miniatures Handbook don't apply to it.Iirc WotC have publically admitted that that was a transcription error - they simply missed it out by accident. Quicken Spell is a rather special case because it expressly says in the feat that it "can't be applied to any spell cast spontaneously". Sudden Quicken, in contrast, doesn't say that. Again, that might be because they thought it was obvious, or it might be because they think Sudden Quicken can be applied to spontaneously cast spells.It doesn't have to. The rules covering the application of metamagic feats to spontaneous cast spells are covered in the rules for the [Metamagic] type feats. Sudden Quicken is of this type and follows those rules unless it says otherwise. I'm still thinking about that issue you raised in your first post though.
Oliver D'Argent 03-25-07, 02:31 PM	Personally, I think that the verbage regarding the Sudden metamagic feats not being included in Complete Arcane was simply an oversight. I have always been under the impression that the reason that spontaneous casters have to take extra time to use normal metamagic feats is to make up for the fact that they don't have to prepare their spells in advance. Prepared casters have to commit to using normal metamagic feats in advance, but do not have to increase their casting time. The words in every Sudden metamagic feat, "or specially preparing it ahead of time" and the fact that these feats can be used by a Warlock (a class that can spontaneously use spell-like abilities), tells me that the "balance" factor of requiring extra casting time for a spontaneous caster to use normal metamagic feats does not apply to the Sudden metamagic feats. Additionally, since the Sudden metamagic feats can only be used once per day, they are self-limiting.
Presmer 03-25-07, 08:04 PM	Couple of things I want to address: Look beyond the words to the intention of the feat based on what it's called and who it's given to (i.e. the Warmage, who is a spontaneous caster) instead of rules-lawyering and quibbling over semantics. While I agree with this, you can't argue that way because it becomes an argument of interpretation, and different people interpret things in different ways. In a debate of interpretation, no one is right or wrong, so we have to go by what's written down in black and white. You CANNOT be expected to have the Miniatures Book AND the Complete Arcane. You CAN be expected to have the Core three. Thus, ONLY the core 3 and the CA can be used for any ruling regarding the Sudden Metamagic. I'm assuming you say this because Complete Arcane is the book you have. What I take away from that is because the Miniatures Handbook is one you don't have, that it is therefore irrelevant, and that's not fair at all. Let's say someone had the Miniatures Handbook but not Complete Arcane and were making their judgment calls based on that. Would they be within their rights to say that what's written in Complete Arcane is irrelevant because they don't own the book? I don't think so.
Jackmojo 03-25-07, 08:31 PM	Fair enough Good catch. (tangentially you'd think they'd say "This is a 3.5 book" like they do on other 3.5 books on the inside title page, but doesn't change it.) Its printed on the back cover (third Paragraph). Jack
Dagonus 03-25-07, 11:07 PM	I'm assuming you say this because Complete Arcane is the book you have. What I take away from that is because the Miniatures Handbook is one you don't have, that it is therefore irrelevant, and that's not fair at all. Let's say someone had the Miniatures Handbook but not Complete Arcane and were making their judgment calls based on that. Would they be within their rights to say that what's written in Complete Arcane is irrelevant because they don't own the book? I don't think so. They couldn't say CA was irrelevant because CA is the latest printing of the rule. (Unless Suddens were put in an even later book in which case it should be checked what THAT book says.) Additionally, if you look at the "requires ..." on each book they only list the DMG, Player's Handbook, and the Monster Manual as needed for the use of them. So it clearly does NOT assume the use of any books other than those and the book in question. (Either the Minature's Handbook OR the Complete Arcane, but not both.) Edit: Also, I have both.