Sundering/Disarming unusual items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sundering/Disarming unusual items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
1 ton ghost
08-24-07, 12:55 PM this is a hot topic for alot of my gamers.
can/should you be able to sunder a mage's wand/scoll/etc. in combat?

a popular tactic they like to employ is a ready action or regular attack if the scoll, for example, was retrieved, but not implemented on mage's turn and they nail it thusly killing the spell w/out benefit of Dispel or counterspell action. i know it's hardness is like 0 and it's weak as Hell, but is it legal in terms of game mechanics?

related: disarm/sunder spell component bag/holy symbol? or do you need a grapple, etc., to strip it from the user?
goawayugh
08-24-07, 01:48 PM Sundering a Carried or Worn Object

You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

It's pretty self-explanatory. Yes, they can sunder the scroll. If you're going to whip out a scroll, get out of melee first (5' step?).
redarius
09-22-07, 01:19 PM We allow this in my game. I only allow people to disarm fragile items (potions, scrolls, components) if they're attacking unarmed, but that's just a house rule.
Griffonos
09-22-07, 01:30 PM We allow this in my game. I only allow people to disarm fragile items (potions, scrolls, components) if they're attacking unarmed, but that's just a house rule.

That makes sense, a potion isn't going to remain intact if you knock it out of someone's hand with a sword.
InkBlot
09-22-07, 04:27 PM You don't disarm a person of their potion by smacking the potion vial. You disarm a person of their potion by smacking their wrist, causing their hand to go limp. Of course, if your hands are already full, then the potion will fall to the ground and probably break anyway. Can you tell that D&D attracts pedants?
Dheran
09-24-07, 11:55 AM We allow this in my game. I only allow people to disarm fragile items (potions, scrolls, components) if they're attacking unarmed, but that's just a house rule. I find you don't really need house rules if you pay attention to all the standard rules. Here's one important rule:Grabbing Items

You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Since a potion isn't a weapon you must follow the "Grabbing Items" part of the Disarm rules. Is a potion in a potion belt well secured? Of course it is; that's what the potion belt is built for, so Disarm can't work unless the opponent has the item in hand. You'd need to instead use Sleight of Hand (which provokes an AoO) for secured items. But we're jumping ahead of some other rules that shouldn't be ignored.

An attacker will react to what they can see in their opponent's hands and what armor they're wearing as a matter of course, but they wouldn't normally have a chance to take an inventory of other items in the opponent's possession; combat focuses your attention on potential threats.Spot (Wis)

Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. You're not going to react to a potion in a potion belt: after all, it's only 2" long and mostly covered in the belt pocket. This means that the potion only maybe registers when you make a move action Spot check to see things other than what you react to in combat; the opponent puts the bottle in their hand (also only maybe: it does merit a reactive Spot check because it could be an alchemical weapon rather than a potion); and rather blatantly when they try to drink it. That's why there's an AoO for drinking, and, as goawayugh mentioned, it's smart to get out of harm's way to avoid that AoO.

Physical Description

A typical potion or oil consists of 1 ounce of liquid held in a ceramic or glass vial fitted with a tight stopper. The stoppered container is usually no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high.Difficulty Class (DC): Very easy (0): Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
Size Category/Hide Modifier
Large/-4
Fine/16 So a potion bottle (size fine) is +20 harder to Spot than a large object (DC 0).
Spot Check Penalties
Spotter distracted -5 Noticing a potion bottle in plain sight requires a DC 20 Spot check, with a -5 penalty for being distracted by being in combat.can/should you be able to sunder a mage's wand/scoll/etc. in combat?

a popular tactic they like to employ is a ready action ... if the scoll, for example, was retrieved
... is it legal in terms of game mechanics? Certainly it's legal -- but you shouldn't be reading off an inventory list of what the enemy is wearing/carrying for free. How do they know enough to ready this action? They need to have successfully made their Spot check to see a scroll or wand in the first place. A wand or scroll is size diminutive, which is still DC 16 to Spot in plain sight. A wand counts as a "weapon-like object" so it'll definitely merit a reactive Spot check if it's in their hand and not before. Unless you also treat a scroll as "weapon-like" they'll never notice it without a move action Spot check. So it's fine that sundering a scroll is easy -- as long as they follow the rules to obtain the information to let them take this action.

As I said, you don't need house rules. Just don't ignore -- and don't let your players ignore -- the regular rules of the game.
ToastedAmphibian
09-24-07, 08:54 PM Certainly it's legal -- but you shouldn't be reading off an inventory list of what the enemy is wearing/carrying for free. How do they know enough to ready this action? They need to have successfully made their Spot check to see a scroll or wand in the first place. A wand or scroll is size diminutive, which is still DC 16 to Spot in plain sight. A wand counts as a "weapon-like object" so it'll definitely merit a reactive Spot check if it's in their hand and not before. Unless you also treat a scroll as "weapon-like" they'll never notice it without a move action Spot check. So it's fine that sundering a scroll is easy -- as long as they follow the rules to obtain the information to let them take this action.

As I said, you don't need house rules. Just don't ignore -- and don't let your players ignore -- the regular rules of the game.

The OP wasnt particularly long, so there is no exscuse for not reading it completly.
a popular tactic they like to employ is a ready action or regular attack if the scoll, for example, was retrieved, but not implemented on mage's turn and they nail it thusly killing the spell w/out benefit of Dispel or counterspell action.

Back off and dont be a prick. Leave all the prickishness to me.
ToastedAmphibian
09-24-07, 09:10 PM Finding an animated potion that is HIDEING in plain sight requiers a spot check of 20+its Dex + its d20roll +its skill ranks. Noticing a potion in teh hand of the opponnent that your 5 feet away from is not nearly as hard. Unless they are activly trying to hide it from you (Slight of Hand) or they have some kind of concealment (Fog) then you shouldn't have any trouble noticing it. Acording to your logic,the mage has to suceed on a DC20 spot check at a -5 penalty for being distracted to find a potion/scroll in his backpack during combat. If your opponnent is trying to hide it from you, then he gets a +4 for it being small, not a +20 as you seem to claim (Although your quote says 16?)

Noticing a pencil trying to hide in the dirt as a walk by is not the same as noticing a pencil someone just pulled out of their backpack during the middle of a fist-fight.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
1 ton ghost 08-24-07, 12:55 PM	this is a hot topic for alot of my gamers. can/should you be able to sunder a mage's wand/scoll/etc. in combat? a popular tactic they like to employ is a ready action or regular attack if the scoll, for example, was retrieved, but not implemented on mage's turn and they nail it thusly killing the spell w/out benefit of Dispel or counterspell action. i know it's hardness is like 0 and it's weak as Hell, but is it legal in terms of game mechanics? related: disarm/sunder spell component bag/holy symbol? or do you need a grapple, etc., to strip it from the user?
goawayugh 08-24-07, 01:48 PM	Sundering a Carried or Worn Object You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character. It's pretty self-explanatory. Yes, they can sunder the scroll. If you're going to whip out a scroll, get out of melee first (5' step?).
redarius 09-22-07, 01:19 PM	We allow this in my game. I only allow people to disarm fragile items (potions, scrolls, components) if they're attacking unarmed, but that's just a house rule.
Griffonos 09-22-07, 01:30 PM	We allow this in my game. I only allow people to disarm fragile items (potions, scrolls, components) if they're attacking unarmed, but that's just a house rule. That makes sense, a potion isn't going to remain intact if you knock it out of someone's hand with a sword.
InkBlot 09-22-07, 04:27 PM	You don't disarm a person of their potion by smacking the potion vial. You disarm a person of their potion by smacking their wrist, causing their hand to go limp. Of course, if your hands are already full, then the potion will fall to the ground and probably break anyway. Can you tell that D&D attracts pedants?
Dheran 09-24-07, 11:55 AM	We allow this in my game. I only allow people to disarm fragile items (potions, scrolls, components) if they're attacking unarmed, but that's just a house rule. I find you don't really need house rules if you pay attention to all the standard rules. Here's one important rule:Grabbing Items You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Since a potion isn't a weapon you must follow the "Grabbing Items" part of the Disarm rules. Is a potion in a potion belt well secured? Of course it is; that's what the potion belt is built for, so Disarm can't work unless the opponent has the item in hand. You'd need to instead use Sleight of Hand (which provokes an AoO) for secured items. But we're jumping ahead of some other rules that shouldn't be ignored. An attacker will react to what they can see in their opponent's hands and what armor they're wearing as a matter of course, but they wouldn't normally have a chance to take an inventory of other items in the opponent's possession; combat focuses your attention on potential threats.Spot (Wis) Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. You're not going to react to a potion in a potion belt: after all, it's only 2" long and mostly covered in the belt pocket. This means that the potion only maybe registers when you make a move action Spot check to see things other than what you react to in combat; the opponent puts the bottle in their hand (also only maybe: it does merit a reactive Spot check because it could be an alchemical weapon rather than a potion); and rather blatantly when they try to drink it. That's why there's an AoO for drinking, and, as goawayugh mentioned, it's smart to get out of harm's way to avoid that AoO. Physical Description A typical potion or oil consists of 1 ounce of liquid held in a ceramic or glass vial fitted with a tight stopper. The stoppered container is usually no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high.Difficulty Class (DC): Very easy (0): Notice something large in plain sight (Spot) Size Category/Hide Modifier Large/-4 Fine/16 So a potion bottle (size fine) is +20 harder to Spot than a large object (DC 0). Spot Check Penalties Spotter distracted -5 Noticing a potion bottle in plain sight requires a DC 20 Spot check, with a -5 penalty for being distracted by being in combat.can/should you be able to sunder a mage's wand/scoll/etc. in combat? a popular tactic they like to employ is a ready action ... if the scoll, for example, was retrieved ... is it legal in terms of game mechanics? Certainly it's legal -- but you shouldn't be reading off an inventory list of what the enemy is wearing/carrying for free. How do they know enough to ready this action? They need to have successfully made their Spot check to see a scroll or wand in the first place. A wand or scroll is size diminutive, which is still DC 16 to Spot in plain sight. A wand counts as a "weapon-like object" so it'll definitely merit a reactive Spot check if it's in their hand and not before. Unless you also treat a scroll as "weapon-like" they'll never notice it without a move action Spot check. So it's fine that sundering a scroll is easy -- as long as they follow the rules to obtain the information to let them take this action. As I said, you don't need house rules. Just don't ignore -- and don't let your players ignore -- the regular rules of the game.
ToastedAmphibian 09-24-07, 08:54 PM	Certainly it's legal -- but you shouldn't be reading off an inventory list of what the enemy is wearing/carrying for free. How do they know enough to ready this action? They need to have successfully made their Spot check to see a scroll or wand in the first place. A wand or scroll is size diminutive, which is still DC 16 to Spot in plain sight. A wand counts as a "weapon-like object" so it'll definitely merit a reactive Spot check if it's in their hand and not before. Unless you also treat a scroll as "weapon-like" they'll never notice it without a move action Spot check. So it's fine that sundering a scroll is easy -- as long as they follow the rules to obtain the information to let them take this action. As I said, you don't need house rules. Just don't ignore -- and don't let your players ignore -- the regular rules of the game. The OP wasnt particularly long, so there is no exscuse for not reading it completly. a popular tactic they like to employ is a ready action or regular attack if the scoll, for example, was retrieved, but not implemented on mage's turn and they nail it thusly killing the spell w/out benefit of Dispel or counterspell action. Back off and dont be a prick. Leave all the prickishness to me.
ToastedAmphibian 09-24-07, 09:10 PM	Finding an animated potion that is HIDEING in plain sight requiers a spot check of 20+its Dex + its d20roll +its skill ranks. Noticing a potion in teh hand of the opponnent that your 5 feet away from is not nearly as hard. Unless they are activly trying to hide it from you (Slight of Hand) or they have some kind of concealment (Fog) then you shouldn't have any trouble noticing it. Acording to your logic,the mage has to suceed on a DC20 spot check at a -5 penalty for being distracted to find a potion/scroll in his backpack during combat. If your opponnent is trying to hide it from you, then he gets a +4 for it being small, not a +20 as you seem to claim (Although your quote says 16?) Noticing a pencil trying to hide in the dirt as a walk by is not the same as noticing a pencil someone just pulled out of their backpack during the middle of a fist-fight.