Superior Unarmed Strike questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Superior Unarmed Strike questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bondious
07-01-07, 08:31 PM Greetings all!

Not sure if there is a thread regarding this already, but since I am short on time at the moment I'll ask without looking. My appologies in advance, to any who take exception. ;)

Okay, I was looking at the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from the 'Tome of Battle', and as well as being a pretty cool feat, I had some questions.

1) Are the damage values they have listed based off a medium sized character? I'm assuming they are, and that a larger or smaller sized character with this feat would need to adjust accordingly.

2) Would this feat stack with the effects of a Monk's Belt? If so, this would let a monk treat his/her unarmed strikes as being 8 levels higher, which sounds pretty cheezy to me. I'm thinking it's akin to the Keen/Improved Critical rule, where they don't stack...though I might be mistaken!

In any event, thanks in advance for any answers and/or insight provided.

:duel:
NoldorForce
07-01-07, 09:07 PM 1) Nearly everything that sets base weapon damage to a certain value assumes that it's for a Medium creature, that being the default size. Go with your instinct.

2) It stacks, assuming that you are a monk. Otherwise it gives you the unarmed damage of a 9th-level monk. (The belt sets your effective level to five if you aren't a monk, and the feat improves that by four levels.)
risner
07-01-07, 09:08 PM 1) Are the damage values they have listed based off a medium sized character? I'm assuming they are, and that a larger or smaller sized character with this feat would need to adjust accordingly.

2) Would this feat stack with the effects of a Monk's Belt? If so, this would let a monk treat his/her unarmed strikes as being 8 levels higher, which sounds pretty cheezy to me. I'm thinking it's akin to the Keen/Improved Critical rule, where they don't stack...though I might be mistaken!

1) Yes, adjust for size.

2) Technically no, since Monk's Belt is "as if you were 5 levels higher" and SUS is "as if you were 4 levels higher", so if you are 8th level, you get to pick between 12th or 13th level Monk unarmed damage.

Now that being said, a great many will allow this to stack. But if you do, you open a box of trouble. You end up with Monk's Belt, SUS, Monk's Tattoo, Caradine Monk guys with +14 Monk unarmed damage doing 2d10 at level 6 or so.
InkBlot
07-01-07, 09:11 PM 1) Are the damage values they have listed based off a medium sized character? I'm assuming they are, and that a larger or smaller sized character with this feat would need to adjust accordingly.

2) Would this feat stack with the effects of a Monk's Belt? If so, this would let a monk treat his/her unarmed strikes as being 8 levels higher, which sounds pretty cheezy to me. I'm thinking it's akin to the Keen/Improved Critical rule, where they don't stack...though I might be mistaken!

In any event, thanks in advance for any answers and/or insight provided.

:duel:

1. Yes. The table is the damage for a medium non-monk character. If you're a small character, and the table says 1d6, you use 1d4 instead. If you're a large character, and the table says 1d6, you use 1d8 instead.

2. Maybe. It's up to your DM. Either way, remember that the monk's damage progression caps out at 2d10. That's about as much damage as a +2 flaming greatsword, but the greatsword will hit more often. If Superior Unarmed Strike and the Monk's Belt stack, then you'll hit 2d10 at 12th level. Any other 12th level character could easily afford a +3 weapon with just standard wealth, but you had to spend a feat on it.
utilitarian
07-01-07, 09:12 PM Aye, generally bonuses of the same type don't stack, and these two abilities do seem to be very clearly the same type of bonus.

Plus, really, that would be a simply silly amount of unarmed damage. People might actually, y'know, play monks without VoP or something. Gasp.
NoldorForce
07-02-07, 01:39 AM Aye, generally bonuses of the same type don't stack, and these two abilities do seem to be very clearly the same type of bonus.They're not bonuses. 'Bonus' has a very specific meaning in D&D, and neither Superior Unarmed Strike nor the Monk's Belt grant it.

Plus, you're misinterpreting the concept of bonus typing. A type is not determined by its target (what you're doing), but by its source.
Kouk
07-02-07, 02:20 AM The belt and the feat seem to work off of your actual monk levels, and not the levels that you are currently dealing damage as, so they should not stack.

You could take the feat Improved Critical, or you could just get your weapon Keened, sort of like that.
pupilofyah
07-02-07, 12:10 PM Aye, generally bonuses of the same type don't stack, and these two abilities do seem to be very clearly the same type of bonus.

Plus, really, that would be a simply silly amount of unarmed damage. People might actually, y'know, play monks without VoP or something. Gasp.

very clearly. HA! any mathematician know that clearly is not used for proof. more over they are untyped so they would definatly stack if not for the wording on them. it is not "your damage is as if your monk lvl was +4" it is "as if it were 4 lvls higher" and the belt is five lvls higher and many rules lawers will say(and with much merit) that it goes off your base lvl. that being said, talk to your DM and see what he thinks because he has the final say and from personal playtesting with a 10 lvl monk with this combination stacking and having I.Nat.Attack it is still not game breaking. Monks are secondary fighters even with that. TWF tree and feather light great swords and tempest(the other marshal char in the same game) and damage wise the monk isnt even close(and my hands are even imbued). the reason is that to get the same bonuses and any other class it is much more expensive for a monk. also i rolled well for hp and he roll poorly and he still has better hp and his ac is 5 more than mine. on the other hand most people we encounter cant resist my stuns unless their are immune or much higher lvl than us.
pupilofyah
07-02-07, 12:40 PM as far as the feat goes, there is some debate regarding what happen with your damage when you hit lvl 20. the 3.5 dmg still has out date matterial regarding monks. it states that their damage does not go up after 16th lvl but that was 3.0 in 3.5 at lvl 20 it is 2d10. in epic the damg for monks does not go up again "on its own". damage wise monk are left behind(speed wise no one is even close though) this feat state it for being 4 lvls higher so so many people say it stops going up because of the epic rule. BUT the epic rule is "on its own" and a feat is not on its own. saying that the feat stops working is the dumbest thing you could do to a player. some feats overlap other feats (they are always prereq. feats) and some feats stop being as effective (toughness) but no feat ever just stops working. toughness at lvl 20 may only be 2% of your hp but the 3 hp is still there even if it makes no real difference. that being said their should be an increase because of the feat. the next step up from 2d10 (range 2-20 avg 11) would be 3d8(range 3- 24 avg 13.5).

otherwise it goes from being "superior unarmed strike" to "the same unarmed strike feat you already had with out having used a feat slot on when you could have gotten weapon focus and just dealt with the fact that it eventually doesnt make that much of a difference that often".
Lotus Crane
07-02-07, 12:57 PM BUT the epic rule is "on its own" and a feat is not on its own. saying that the feat stops working is the dumbest thing you could do to a player.
Well, with the retraining rules from the PHB II, you could rule that at any point from 16th-20th level, a monk is automatically entitled to a free trade-in of Superior Unarmed Strike for any other feat he qualifies for. That seems fair and reasonable, without the need to figure out what a virtual 21st+ damage progression should be.
pupilofyah
07-02-07, 01:56 PM Well, with the retraining rules from the PHB II, you could rule that at any point from 16th-20th level, a monk is automatically entitled to a free trade-in of Superior Unarmed Strike for any other feat he qualifies for. That seems fair and reasonable, without the need to figure out what a virtual 21st+ damage progression should be.

there are 2 PrC's that already make it nessecary to do so.

fist of the forest (complete chapion)
(next step on monk table ok so it is as dubious as the 4 lvls higher and it seems they thought they were being less confusing)

initiate of draconic mysteries. (draconomicon)
increase a die step. the least confuses and does the same thing as the other 2.

also if you read the tables on die progressions and the monk table there is nothing to "figure out" it is already done unless you are a colossal monk but then again at that point who can take hit from you anyway?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bondious 07-01-07, 08:31 PM	Greetings all! Not sure if there is a thread regarding this already, but since I am short on time at the moment I'll ask without looking. My appologies in advance, to any who take exception. ;) Okay, I was looking at the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from the 'Tome of Battle', and as well as being a pretty cool feat, I had some questions. 1) Are the damage values they have listed based off a medium sized character? I'm assuming they are, and that a larger or smaller sized character with this feat would need to adjust accordingly. 2) Would this feat stack with the effects of a Monk's Belt? If so, this would let a monk treat his/her unarmed strikes as being 8 levels higher, which sounds pretty cheezy to me. I'm thinking it's akin to the Keen/Improved Critical rule, where they don't stack...though I might be mistaken! In any event, thanks in advance for any answers and/or insight provided. :duel:
NoldorForce 07-01-07, 09:07 PM	1) Nearly everything that sets base weapon damage to a certain value assumes that it's for a Medium creature, that being the default size. Go with your instinct. 2) It stacks, assuming that you are a monk. Otherwise it gives you the unarmed damage of a 9th-level monk. (The belt sets your effective level to five if you aren't a monk, and the feat improves that by four levels.)
risner 07-01-07, 09:08 PM	1) Are the damage values they have listed based off a medium sized character? I'm assuming they are, and that a larger or smaller sized character with this feat would need to adjust accordingly. 2) Would this feat stack with the effects of a Monk's Belt? If so, this would let a monk treat his/her unarmed strikes as being 8 levels higher, which sounds pretty cheezy to me. I'm thinking it's akin to the Keen/Improved Critical rule, where they don't stack...though I might be mistaken! 1) Yes, adjust for size. 2) Technically no, since Monk's Belt is "as if you were 5 levels higher" and SUS is "as if you were 4 levels higher", so if you are 8th level, you get to pick between 12th or 13th level Monk unarmed damage. Now that being said, a great many will allow this to stack. But if you do, you open a box of trouble. You end up with Monk's Belt, SUS, Monk's Tattoo, Caradine Monk guys with +14 Monk unarmed damage doing 2d10 at level 6 or so.
InkBlot 07-01-07, 09:11 PM	1) Are the damage values they have listed based off a medium sized character? I'm assuming they are, and that a larger or smaller sized character with this feat would need to adjust accordingly. 2) Would this feat stack with the effects of a Monk's Belt? If so, this would let a monk treat his/her unarmed strikes as being 8 levels higher, which sounds pretty cheezy to me. I'm thinking it's akin to the Keen/Improved Critical rule, where they don't stack...though I might be mistaken! In any event, thanks in advance for any answers and/or insight provided. :duel: 1. Yes. The table is the damage for a medium non-monk character. If you're a small character, and the table says 1d6, you use 1d4 instead. If you're a large character, and the table says 1d6, you use 1d8 instead. 2. Maybe. It's up to your DM. Either way, remember that the monk's damage progression caps out at 2d10. That's about as much damage as a +2 flaming greatsword, but the greatsword will hit more often. If Superior Unarmed Strike and the Monk's Belt stack, then you'll hit 2d10 at 12th level. Any other 12th level character could easily afford a +3 weapon with just standard wealth, but you had to spend a feat on it.
utilitarian 07-01-07, 09:12 PM	Aye, generally bonuses of the same type don't stack, and these two abilities do seem to be very clearly the same type of bonus. Plus, really, that would be a simply silly amount of unarmed damage. People might actually, y'know, play monks without VoP or something. Gasp.
NoldorForce 07-02-07, 01:39 AM	Aye, generally bonuses of the same type don't stack, and these two abilities do seem to be very clearly the same type of bonus.They're not bonuses. 'Bonus' has a very specific meaning in D&D, and neither Superior Unarmed Strike nor the Monk's Belt grant it. Plus, you're misinterpreting the concept of bonus typing. A type is not determined by its target (what you're doing), but by its source.
Kouk 07-02-07, 02:20 AM	The belt and the feat seem to work off of your actual monk levels, and not the levels that you are currently dealing damage as, so they should not stack. You could take the feat Improved Critical, or you could just get your weapon Keened, sort of like that.
pupilofyah 07-02-07, 12:10 PM	Aye, generally bonuses of the same type don't stack, and these two abilities do seem to be very clearly the same type of bonus. Plus, really, that would be a simply silly amount of unarmed damage. People might actually, y'know, play monks without VoP or something. Gasp. very clearly. HA! any mathematician know that clearly is not used for proof. more over they are untyped so they would definatly stack if not for the wording on them. it is not "your damage is as if your monk lvl was +4" it is "as if it were 4 lvls higher" and the belt is five lvls higher and many rules lawers will say(and with much merit) that it goes off your base lvl. that being said, talk to your DM and see what he thinks because he has the final say and from personal playtesting with a 10 lvl monk with this combination stacking and having I.Nat.Attack it is still not game breaking. Monks are secondary fighters even with that. TWF tree and feather light great swords and tempest(the other marshal char in the same game) and damage wise the monk isnt even close(and my hands are even imbued). the reason is that to get the same bonuses and any other class it is much more expensive for a monk. also i rolled well for hp and he roll poorly and he still has better hp and his ac is 5 more than mine. on the other hand most people we encounter cant resist my stuns unless their are immune or much higher lvl than us.
pupilofyah 07-02-07, 12:40 PM	as far as the feat goes, there is some debate regarding what happen with your damage when you hit lvl 20. the 3.5 dmg still has out date matterial regarding monks. it states that their damage does not go up after 16th lvl but that was 3.0 in 3.5 at lvl 20 it is 2d10. in epic the damg for monks does not go up again "on its own". damage wise monk are left behind(speed wise no one is even close though) this feat state it for being 4 lvls higher so so many people say it stops going up because of the epic rule. BUT the epic rule is "on its own" and a feat is not on its own. saying that the feat stops working is the dumbest thing you could do to a player. some feats overlap other feats (they are always prereq. feats) and some feats stop being as effective (toughness) but no feat ever just stops working. toughness at lvl 20 may only be 2% of your hp but the 3 hp is still there even if it makes no real difference. that being said their should be an increase because of the feat. the next step up from 2d10 (range 2-20 avg 11) would be 3d8(range 3- 24 avg 13.5). otherwise it goes from being "superior unarmed strike" to "the same unarmed strike feat you already had with out having used a feat slot on when you could have gotten weapon focus and just dealt with the fact that it eventually doesnt make that much of a difference that often".
Lotus Crane 07-02-07, 12:57 PM	BUT the epic rule is "on its own" and a feat is not on its own. saying that the feat stops working is the dumbest thing you could do to a player. Well, with the retraining rules from the PHB II, you could rule that at any point from 16th-20th level, a monk is automatically entitled to a free trade-in of Superior Unarmed Strike for any other feat he qualifies for. That seems fair and reasonable, without the need to figure out what a virtual 21st+ damage progression should be.
pupilofyah 07-02-07, 01:56 PM	Well, with the retraining rules from the PHB II, you could rule that at any point from 16th-20th level, a monk is automatically entitled to a free trade-in of Superior Unarmed Strike for any other feat he qualifies for. That seems fair and reasonable, without the need to figure out what a virtual 21st+ damage progression should be. there are 2 PrC's that already make it nessecary to do so. fist of the forest (complete chapion) (next step on monk table ok so it is as dubious as the 4 lvls higher and it seems they thought they were being less confusing) initiate of draconic mysteries. (draconomicon) increase a die step. the least confuses and does the same thing as the other 2. also if you read the tables on die progressions and the monk table there is nothing to "figure out" it is already done unless you are a colossal monk but then again at that point who can take hit from you anyway?