Post/Author/DateTime	Post
littlekid 11-29-07, 06:36 PM	So a monk taking SUS hits as though 4 levels higher, but what happens when they hit level 17?
Otogi_2 11-29-07, 06:51 PM	He's treated as an epic monk, which I don't think gains any progression.
Krusk 11-29-07, 07:25 PM	The player 1-hopes the DM will let him retrain the now useless feat. 2- begins multiclassing instead of straight monk 3- is stuck with a useless feat or 4- convinces the DM to allow an extended progression
risner 11-29-07, 07:38 PM	So a monk taking SUS hits as though 4 levels higher, but what happens when they hit level 17? He retrains the feat (SUS) as something else.
mathew99 11-29-07, 08:48 PM	Yah, retrain.
littlekid 11-29-07, 10:25 PM	No, I've been considering playing a monk/paladin, with ascetic knight feat, and figured SUS would be beneficial. I doubt our characters will actually make that level, but I was just wondering, since I don't have the epic lvl handbook with me.
Pandapeep 11-29-07, 10:35 PM	Sadly there is no Epic UAS progression. This is a terribly sad thing.
dman11235 11-29-07, 11:00 PM	Sad for the monk, good news for everyone else. "How much damage do you do?" "Oh, I lost a couple levels, so only 256d8+3"
Scion of Coldshard 11-29-07, 11:26 PM	At the sheer level of epic it would take to reach that many d8's does physically punching someone really matter anymore? Long ago everyone else has hit the point of obliterating planets/planes accidentally when they sneeze... I would like a progression above 20 for the unarmed strike damage personally.. I find it very sad when the monk has to unlearn training with their fists and take off the monks belt because they simply dont do anything useful anymore.. it'd be like capping saving throw dc's at 25 or something, once the character gets into that range they go back and unlearn spell focus because it doesnt matter anymore..
mathew99 11-29-07, 11:39 PM	IMO if you are a lvl 17 monk with the SUS feat, yo would retrain it, or if by any other reason it wouldn't help anymore.
dman11235 11-29-07, 11:53 PM	Monk's belt is still +1 AC and +1 stunning fist attempt. And damage is not like saves. That barbarian is still only doing 2d6 base with that greatsword. Doesn't matter how high a level you go. So the monk should do more and more damage continually? Just how much of a punch do you think that little guy can have? They can already do 2d10 base medium at 20. There are inumerable (actually, it is numerable) ways to increase that further. Improved natural attack, spells, PrCs, etc. Besides, SUS was meant to help out non-monks or people with non-monk levels.
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 12:15 AM	So the monk should do more and more damage continually? Sure, why not? It is epic after all. Being able to punch through a tree sounds pretty mundane next to what some of the epic classes can do ;) Besides, SUS was meant to help out non-monks or people with non-monk levels. It seems like it was meant for both since it has rules for both... I would be ok with a barbarians rage getting better in epic as well for that matter.. I am also ok with the bards inspire courage going up and clerics turning increasing and the druids animal companion improving and so on and so forth..
dman11235 11-30-07, 12:17 AM	And people with non-monk levels, as in, multiclass. Also, those classes DO get those things in epic (aside from barbarians, they need a feat). The monk also has three class features that advance into epic: speed, SR, and AC boost.
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 12:41 AM	Also, those classes DO get those things in epic (aside from barbarians, they need a feat). The monk also has three class features that advance into epic: speed, SR, and AC boost. I know that people get stuff in epic, I am saying that I dont see how increasing the unarmed strike damage is problematic. We are talking epic levels here! The barding inspire courage going up is literally stronger than the monk increasing his damage.
dman11235 11-30-07, 01:16 AM	Really? Did you know that the progression becomes gradually better? The next step would be 4d8 I believe. The step afterwards would be 6d8, then 8d8, 12d8, 16d8, 20d8, 26d8, 32d8, and at level 56 be 38d8*. That's a bit better than just a +1 every, what, every six levels? Also: does a fighter get a better sword base damage? No. Ranger? Barbarian? Paladin? No, they don't. Why should the monk vastly out perform other melee classes in epic? *this is based on an extrapolation that I did at an earlier time, to progress it two sets higher for a different reason.
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-07, 10:12 AM	Really? Did you know that the progression becomes gradually better? Well sure the progression makes the unarmed strikes better, it makes them better all the way through lower levels as well. Also, the jumps dont have to follow the weapon size category rules at all. They already dont really follow them anyway, so why assume that there would be big jumps at all? At epic levels they could even just do something as simple as adding an extra d4 after some number of levels and then increasing it one step every so often until it hit a d10 and then adding another d4. That way there is some improvement but it isnt huge.
Emeramber 11-30-07, 10:51 AM	I suspect that the Epic Monk's progression, were it not flat, would be more like 20 2d10 24 4d6 28 4d8 32 4d10 36 8d6 40 8d8 44 8d10 48 16d6 Still phenomenally impressive, except that it's damage, and the common mantra is that damage is pointless at high levels. Personally, I don't mind master monks being able to split boulders with a touch...
strenoth 11-30-07, 11:14 AM	by the way, that progression works out rather interestingly if you study it in terms of average. 2d10=11 4d6=14 4d8=18 4d10=22 8d6=27 8d8=35 8d10=43 16d6=56 if you think having a base average damage of 56 is broken at level 48... Even with INA to increase the damage by a size level, it's not going to be all that much. And monk is already considered one of the weaker classes.