Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mahatma87 12-07-07, 07:33 PM	I've read the book and the FAQ, yet haven't solved my problem. Does the Swashbuckler gain feats the same way as a fighter. Thus 1 feat at 1st class, 1 bonus feat at 1st class then additional feats at levels 2, 4, 6, 8 etc? The Swashbuckler starts with weapon finesse, which makes me think that the bonus feat for a fighter have been chosen as weapon finesse as a default.
AtsuiShoto 12-07-07, 07:48 PM	The swashbuckler and the fighter are two separate classes, so each will only get what it says it does. Anything they share is only a matter of coincidence, unless you take a very specific feat called Daring Warrior from Complete Scoundrel. So nope, no bonus feats for the swashbuckler beyond what the swashbuckler description specifically explains.
Mahatma87 12-08-07, 09:49 AM	Could someone help me choose a feat for my 3rd level. I've entered a campaign at 4th level and I'm trying to mold my character into a combat beast. I played a session on Thursday in which I made good use of my Weapon Finesse and Shield Proficiency, but I also had Combat Reflexes, which I didn't use. I'm hoping that the DM will allow me to swap CR for another feat as I've only recently started playing D&D and wasn't aware how little I would be using CR. As I didn't use it to survive the last session I think he will let me swap my feats. My lvl 6 feat will be Exotic Weapon Proficiency, to allow my Elf Swashbuckler to use an Elven Lightblade. I can't choose this as my lvl 3 feat because my character is in the desert, far away from any place he could purchase a Lightblade. lvl 9 I will hopefully get Improved Critical as a feat to critical on 15-20 with my lightblade. I don't want to be proficient in two-weapon fighting because I have spent 4000gold on a +2 magic buckler, and to use that with two weapons will cause me to get the Improved Buckler Defense feat aswell as the TWF feat.
Malchius 12-08-07, 10:41 AM	Don't get exotic weapon proficiency, get Weapon Familiarity this turns any elven weapons into martial weapons and you're proficient with all martial weapons. This will grant proficiency in lightblade, thinblade, courtblade and double-bow if I recall correctly, much more advantageous to you. It may be worth buying dodge, then mobility then spring attack and maybe even progressing to whirlwind attack.
Mahatma87 12-08-07, 10:52 AM	Thanks for the IWF tip. Regarding Dodge, the Swashbuckler gets Dodge +1 as a lvl5 special, then another +1 at 10th, 15th and 20th levels. Considering that, would I really need the dodge feat? Combat expertise I was thinking about to use my +5 dex modifier to add to my AC when I'm getting swarmed by multiple enemies and waiting for backup to arrive. Anything that keeps me alive for longer, I rolled well creating my character with a 12,13,13,14,16 and 17 for abilities and would like him to survive.
Biolyticclod 12-08-07, 11:07 AM	Dodge might not be a big issue to you right now but later on down the road when you take the Mobility and Spring attack feats you'll be glad you took dodge. Mobility always save the warrior who runs into the threat rages of opponents.... much like a swashbuckler would! And you can't really beat having spring attack. ake a long look at the description of the feat and you'll understand. It may as well be a prereq for any swashbuckler or pirate style builds. AS far as other feats to go with; The weapon familiarity is probably the right choice if the lightblade is where your headed, but also consider taking Combat Expertise, the branch of feats available afterwards are geared to the style of swashbuckling... Improved Feint, Imp. Trip, Imp. Disarm... And CE will also allow you to boost your AC, I know you're looking for a feat to help survive....
BugHunter 12-08-07, 11:10 AM	By taking the dodge feat you can have dodge against two different opponents. This will allow you take mobility and with tumble give you a better chance of avoiding AoOs.
Rymosrac 12-08-07, 11:14 AM	Also, I would recommend getting the keen enhancement on your weapons instead of getting the improved critical feat. A few thousand goldpieces is much cheaper than a feat by 9th level.
Malchius 12-08-07, 11:27 AM	If you decide on taking Combat Expertise, I would recommend taking deadly defense from complete scoundrel. A must have for expertise fighter and a staple in all of my Swashbuckler's builds since it was created. Daring Outlaw is a much recommended feat if you ever feel like cross classing into Rogue. That's also in Complete Scoundrel. The only real reason to take dodge is because the dodge bonus from Swashbuckler doesn't make mobility available. IMO, it would make more sense if they got it as a bonus feat but that might be a bit overpowered.
Mahatma87 12-08-07, 01:35 PM	I now have a conundrum to solve. I can get Dodge then Mobility then Spring attack. With mobility, I get a +4AC against attacks of opportunity when I already have tumble with +12 modifier. Spring Attack I can see the use off if I want to attack then retreat behind cover. Dodge, well I get a dodge bonus for lvl5 anyway, which goes up to +2 at level 10. Combat expertise, is it any good? I'll gain +5 to my AC but I'll be -5 when attacking. Will this be used a lot? After CE I can get deadly defense, which I think adds +1d6 to my damage rolls when on the defensive. And, is an Elven Courtblade considered 'Swashbucklerish'? Regarding cross-classing into Rogue, I'd rather not do it. My preference is towards ranking up in Swashbuckler only and making use of Weakening Critical and Wounding Critical in combination with a Keen Courtblade.
Malchius 12-08-07, 01:47 PM	Combat Expertise isn't a pre-req of deadly defense but you simply need to take -2 to hit to gain Deadly Defenses bonus, or you could go into defensive mode, which won't be much considering high dex will more than negate this. You don't have to use combat expertise all the time either, if your GM decides to send a lot of creatures at you that are weak, it would be the ideal time to use it. Btw, I think the courtblade is Swashbucklerish, it's essentially a rapier, a very big rapier, but a rapier none the less.
Mahatma87 12-08-07, 03:15 PM	Damn I've another question. Is it worth me buying two keen thinblades to go with my weapon finesse and buckler, instead of one courtblade? The damage is d8 compared to d10 of the courtblade, but I get two attacks (at -2 for the main hand and -3 the off-hand). My dex is +5 and base attack bonus +4, I think I can still hit a lot of enemies with the bonuses. Of course I'll need Two-weapon fighting as a feat. The added benefit of using two weapons is that I can use these two models: http://www.andrea-miniatures.com/market/AspsProductos/Detalle.asp?IdProductoDetalle=1156 http://www.andrea-miniatures.com/market/AspsProductos/Detalle.asp?IdProductoDetalle=1053
ObscureInfo 12-08-07, 03:32 PM	I now have a conundrum to solve. Dodge, well I get a dodge bonus for lvl5 anyway, which goes up to +2 at level 10. You can never, never get enough dodge bonuses. They always stack and that extra +1 can mean the difference between getting hit or avoiding damage. Combat expertise, is it any good? I'll gain +5 to my AC but I'll be -5 when attacking. Will this be used a lot? Good heavens, yes. Unless your dextrity is like 25 or 26, combat expertise is a must-have. You're wearing chain shirt armor at best and that is only +4 AC. (compare that with the full plate AC of +8) For lightly armored combatants, combat expertise is must. Also it is a gateway feat, which allows you access to cool feats like improved disarm and improved trip. I like it for another reason. There are no really good rules on "parrying". I don't have Tome of Battle, so I can't comment on that, but in Core and most of the splatbooks, there are no real rules for parrying. Combat Expertise is the closest feat we have to that. (You are using your attack skill to avoid getting hit) Sure, there is no opposed check or anything, but if an attack misses you by the one or two (or five) that you got from Combat Expertise, we always say that you parried his attack. For swashbucklers, focus on movement and avoiding getting hit. If you are just standing there while your opponent pummels you, you deserve what you get. A full BAB class is always going to have more BAB than AC. For damage, you get critical bonuses, so a keen weapon or Imp Critical is a must. You also get your Int bonus for damage, so boosting that is important, too. You get your Dex bonus for attack, so boosting that is a nice idea, besides more Dex means more AC. The other best way to improve damage is a nice elemental bonus. +1d6 of fire or sonic or shock damage is nice and is very much like getting a critical since rapiers have a crit modifier of x2. And that's all I have to say about that. Good luck.
ObscureInfo 12-08-07, 03:46 PM	Damn I've another question. Is it worth me buying two keen thinblades to go with my weapon finesse and buckler, instead of one courtblade? The damage is d8 compared to d10 of the courtblade, but I get two attacks (at -2 for the main hand and -3 the off-hand). My dex is +5 and base attack bonus +4, I think I can still hit a lot of enemies with the bonuses. Of course I'll need Two-weapon fighting as a feat. The added benefit of using two weapons is that I can use these two models: http://www.andrea-miniatures.com/market/AspsProductos/Detalle.asp?IdProductoDetalle=1156 http://www.andrea-miniatures.com/market/AspsProductos/Detalle.asp?IdProductoDetalle=1053 First off, let me say that is one cool mini. Not sure it is worth the 110 Euros it is listed at, but very cool. Unless the thinblade is a light weapon, like a shortsword or a dagger, you will have to contend with the -4/-4 penalties for two-weapon fighting. Like using two rapiers (or two scimintars like a certain dark elf ;) ). Yes, there is a feat somewhere that reduces this penalty but you are already feat short, I wouldn't add it to this. Also once you go down the two-weapon path, forever will it dominate your feat choices. In other words, you have to continue getting improved TWF and greater TWF in order to keep it effective. For a straight swashbuckler, that is alot of focus. And I don't see the payoff. You really think that you are going to be double crits with those pigstickers?? If not, you have left yourself vulnerable to a lot of damage. TWF works best for Rangers (who get it free as they advance with favorite enemy bonuses) and Rogues (double sneak attack) and Fighters (who can double up on WF, WS, GWF, GWS, etc). But hey, it's your elf.
elonin 12-09-07, 07:03 PM	First off, let me say that is one cool mini. Not sure it is worth the 110 Euros it is listed at, but very cool. Unless the thinblade is a light weapon, like a shortsword or a dagger, you will have to contend with the -4/-4 penalties for two-weapon fighting. Like using two rapiers (or two scimintars like a certain dark elf ;) ). Yes, there is a feat somewhere that reduces this penalty but you are already feat short, I wouldn't add it to this. Also once you go down the two-weapon path, forever will it dominate your feat choices. In other words, you have to continue getting improved TWF and greater TWF in order to keep it effective. For a straight swashbuckler, that is alot of focus. And I don't see the payoff. You really think that you are going to be double crits with those pigstickers?? If not, you have left yourself vulnerable to a lot of damage. TWF works best for Rangers (who get it free as they advance with favorite enemy bonuses) and Rogues (double sneak attack) and Fighters (who can double up on WF, WS, GWF, GWS, etc). But hey, it's your elf. Yes those are nice mini's. The elven blades (court blade, thin blade etc) are all finessable. So the penalty is -2/-2
elonin 12-09-07, 07:05 PM	First off, let me say that is one cool mini. Not sure it is worth the 110 Euros it is listed at, but very cool. Unless the thinblade is a light weapon, like a shortsword or a dagger, you will have to contend with the -4/-4 penalties for two-weapon fighting. Like using two rapiers (or two scimintars like a certain dark elf ;) ). Yes, there is a feat somewhere that reduces this penalty but you are already feat short, I wouldn't add it to this. Also once you go down the two-weapon path, forever will it dominate your feat choices. In other words, you have to continue getting improved TWF and greater TWF in order to keep it effective. For a straight swashbuckler, that is alot of focus. And I don't see the payoff. You really think that you are going to be double crits with those pigstickers?? If not, you have left yourself vulnerable to a lot of damage. TWF works best for Rangers (who get it free as they advance with favorite enemy bonuses) and Rogues (double sneak attack) and Fighters (who can double up on WF, WS, GWF, GWS, etc). But hey, it's your elf. Yes those are nice mini's. The elven blades (court blade, thin blade etc) are all finessable. So the penalty is -2/-2 :D What do you all think about swash who goes to dervish? I'd probibly throw in one level of rogue for sneak attack goodness.
ObscureInfo 12-09-07, 11:18 PM	Yes those are nice mini's. The elven blades (court blade, thin blade etc) are all finessable. So the penalty is -2/-2 :D What do you all think about swash who goes to dervish? I'd probibly throw in one level of rogue for sneak attack goodness. Finessable got nothing to do with it. TWF penalties are reduced when you have a light weapon, not a finessable one. (At least how I read it) Did they change that?? (I just checked. I am right) I am afraid you are looking at a -4/-4 penalty. Unless you change one of those for a dagger or a shortsword. And I already told you why I think it is a bad idea. You aren't getting enough feats to do a good enough job of TWF. And you don't get enough damage to do it. But hey, it's your character.
Malchius 12-10-07, 03:51 PM	Depending on what type of Swashbuckler you are, you may want to look at Dread Pirate in Complete Adventurer, easy access through Swashbuckler and gives Two Weapon at first level in the class.
sapient 12-11-07, 08:02 AM	... There are no really good rules on "parrying". I don't have Tome of Battle, so I can't comment on that, but in Core and most of the splatbooks, there are no real rules for parrying. Combat Expertise is the closest feat we have to that. (You are using your attack skill to avoid getting hit) Sure, there is no opposed check or anything, but if an attack misses you by the one or two (or five) that you got from Combat Expertise, we always say that you parried his attack. Yes, that is how I see Fighting defensively and Combat Expertise - you choose to devote some of the capacity you have for offense, into a better defense. Parrying with your sword (or other weapon of choice) is part of that, as well as taking a short step backwards (inside 5 ft.) to avoid a blow even if that makes it harder to hit. I feel that this is how DnD would deal with parrying. Why it doesn't say so explicitly in the description, I don't know. (They are very brief.) The kind of parrying that would require opposed checks seem unnecessary to me. That would belong in an entirely different battle system. (One that might be very cool, really. But nontheless a different one... DnD uses opposed checks very rearly and only to some specific purposes that mostly belong in the "grapple-related" family of attacks were strength is pitted against strength or sometimes dex.) .
_Render_ 12-11-07, 12:37 PM	Damn I've another question. Is it worth me buying two keen thinblades to go with my weapon finesse and buckler, instead of one courtblade? The damage is d8 compared to d10 of the courtblade, but I get two attacks (at -2 for the main hand and -3 the off-hand). My dex is +5 and base attack bonus +4, I think I can still hit a lot of enemies with the bonuses. Of course I'll need Two-weapon fighting as a feat. The added benefit of using two weapons is that I can use these two models: http://www.andrea-miniatures.com/market/AspsProductos/Detalle.asp?IdProductoDetalle=1156 http://www.andrea-miniatures.com/market/AspsProductos/Detalle.asp?IdProductoDetalle=1053 Haha I remember a game where I used a mini of Ezekiel from Warhammer 40k as a spear wielding AOO monger.
Mahatma87 12-11-07, 02:13 PM	Could someone explain to me what is so good about Spring Attack? How do I use it to my advantage? I'm trying to make my character a hit'n'run melee beast, directing attacks wherever the party needs then, then tumbling out of melee to hit another NPC. I'm going to get a lvl in fighter for the free feat, then maybe another level for another feat. After than I'm going into levels of Warblade to get the stances and such.
ObscureInfo 12-11-07, 03:40 PM	Could someone explain to me what is so good about Spring Attack? How do I use it to my advantage? I'm trying to make my character a hit'n'run melee beast, directing attacks wherever the party needs then, then tumbling out of melee to hit another NPC. "What's so good about Spring Attack?" Spring Attack is the difference between Move and Attack, Wait for Opponent's Full Attack and Move, Attack, Move away, Wait for opponent's single attack. Having gone against a fighter's or melee monster's full attack before, I can tell you, DON'T. I'm going to get a lvl in fighter for the free feat, then maybe another level for another feat. After than I'm going into levels of Warblade to get the stances and such And another straight swashbuckler goes down the drain. Sometimes I think it is a little too easy to multiclass. (But only 'cause I can't stand x2/y3/z14 characters) But what do I know?
Mahatma87 12-11-07, 07:20 PM	And another straight swashbuckler goes down the drain. Sometimes I think it is a little too easy to multiclass. (But only 'cause I can't stand x2/y3/z14 characters) But what do I know? I don't like it much either, but how can I justify staying in a class which offers so little after 3rd level when compared to other classes? I'd like to customise my character a little better than I can by taking more levels of Swashbuckler, for example picking Expeditious Dodge, Mobility and Spring attack as feats and making him a hit'n'run artist, rather than having Dodge and Acrobatic Charge etc.
ObscureInfo 12-12-07, 12:27 AM	I don't like it much either, but how can I justify staying in a class which offers so little after 3rd level when compared to other classes? I'd like to customise my character a little better than I can by taking more levels of Swashbuckler, for example picking Expeditious Dodge, Mobility and Spring attack as feats and making him a hit'n'run artist, rather than having Dodge and Acrobatic Charge etc. O.K. I'll bite. You can have Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack by level 6 (along with combat expertise) if you choose your feats correctly. The Swashbuckler Dodge Bonus is nice because it stacks with the Dodge from your feat and now you have like +2 armor for free. And at fifth level, to boot. Grace is a little weak, but reflex saves can prevent fireball deaths. Acrobatic Charge means the DM can't say, "you can't dance around here, it's rocky ground or some other obscure ruling". You have a problem with crits? With the Improved Critical feat at level 9, you will have one of the largest critical ranges in the game and you can do ability damage on top of your regular attack. Not too shabby. And what's with the "at high levels, everyone has fortification armor and is immune to crits."?? I looked through the Monster Manual and I don't see too many creatures with crit immunity. I think some DMs are meta gaming to prevent the derailing of their plot. It is the same when you play a wizard and "suddenly" everyone has fire resistence or spell resistence. Sha, right. It is true that you will run into more creatures with fortification or some kind of crit immunity, just because they are tougher opponents. But if EVERYONE you run into defends against this, you are being screwed by your DM. And it's time to have the "talk". By jumping out of swashbuckler and jumping into fighter or some other fighting class (warblade, was it?), you are losing half your skill points. If you want to be able to jump up to the table or tumble past your opponent, you're going to need more than the 6 ranks you got in the first 3 levels. (and remember, as a cross class skill, you can't put another rank into tumble until level 11) So how good of a swashbuckler would you be without the skills? Now, true, you can go rogue, and get the daring outlaw feat, but that isn't what you are considering. And then you have to resist getting rogue skills like disable device and open locks. I have a problem multi-classing into rogue since the class has the largest number of skills and the largest number of skill points. Unlike a straight rogue, you can't get good at the things you want to get good at, because you are at least three levels behind. There is no such thing as being pretty good at picking a lock. With average DCs of at least 20-25, you're 4 or 5 ranks ain't going to cut it. So I guess what it comes down to is I don't see how multiclassing gets you to a better swashbuckler. A better fighter, maybe, but not a better swashbuckler.