Tactical feats question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tactical feats question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eogan
11-16-07, 12:27 PM When my character chooses a tactical feat, which usually gives three maneuvers, can he only use one of them in any situation, or could he use more if the necessary conditions are given?

More explicitly: I would like to use Elusive Target, which would let my character negate Power Attack (if used by the opponent), Divert the attack (if being flanked) or Cause Overreach (when moving out of a threatened square and provoking an AoO). Now lets set up this situation: My rogue/swashbuckler is being flanked by two opponents, and the one of them that he is Dodging (attacker #1) uses power attack. Would that allow my character to use two of the feat's abilities, such as causing the first attack to miss and threaten the flanking opponent #2, while at the same time negating the power attack bonus of subsequent attacks by #1?
Taking it further: In the next round, my character leaves the square, drawing AoO's of the two attackers. Thus, the attack #1, who is still being dodged, automatically misses (threatening his buddy again), resulting in a free trip attempt on my character's part.

Another question related to Elusive Target: The Dodge ability granted by the Swashbuckler class does not qualify for this feat by any chance, allowing for both opponents to fall for its effects...? Now that would be a sight: Two flanking giants using Power attack and hitting each other over the head time and time again.... :w00t:

I couldn't find any answer on this so far, so thanks for any help on the topic
Eogan
Tordak
11-16-07, 01:08 PM For the 1st part, yes you can. You can make use of your feat anytime you qualify for the action as described in the feat. Now I don't remember exactly the wording of elusive target, but as far as I remember the attacker #1 from the first example would power attack is friend and then would be denied is bonus to damage from power attack (while retaining the penalty) agaisnt you on his additional attack.
For the second example, make sure what it says about 'attack and miss', but I think it would qualify as a miss and you would get your attack of opportunity.

I'm too unsure about the swachbuckler question. But it's in the same book (CW), so I believe it would be covered if it where to qualify. I mean the swachbuckler ability should say how you use this dodge, and if you qualify for feat and PrC as if you had the dodge feat, and also if the 2 stacks.
Eerongal
11-16-07, 02:37 PM it depends. Basically, if it specifies using it is a certain action (Standard, swift, move, immediate, AoO, etc) then you only get to use it at any time you could normally use such an action. And if two or more that take the same, or a currently unavailable action overlap, you get one or the other. If they don't specify an action, i would be inclined to believe that they are free when you qualify as such, meaning you could use any you qualify for when you qualify for them.
Eogan
11-19-07, 08:30 AM Finally I have net-access again, so first of all thanks for the replies!

Eerongal brings up a good point that I have overlooked so far, which maybe is the reason for my problem: What kind of action exactly is a "tactical maneuvre"? I did not find this as a rule-specific term anywhere, Complete Warrior just states that tactical feats allow their use. Obviously, as it takes place during an attack by another creature, the negation of the power attack it is not an action as such that my character can take, as is the diversion. So maybe the question comes down to whether I have to determine the benefit of the feat on my turn, and by choosing one target also giving it one and only one possible maneuver, or whether I just specify one opponent as the one who qualifies for either and decide during his attack which outcome I take, taking two benefits if the situation allows.

So, new aspect of the question: Is the tactical maneuver specified exactly on my turn by choosing the feat (as a free action, or whatever other rule-term might apply), or can I choose to take several aspects if the target is eligible for them? Suggestions?

And I think Tordak is right on the part of the Swbk Dodge ability, it would mention if it would allow to use it instead of the feat (if it's not there, it's not there...).
InkBlot
11-19-07, 05:46 PM Tactical feats, and the tactical maneuvers they grant, follow the normal rules for feats. Note that the benefits granted by tactical feats are different from the system of maneuvers present in the Tome Of Battle. In books written after the release of Tome Of Battle, tactical feats refer to their benefits as tactical options.

Most feats are always on, or kick in when certain other events happen. You don't need to take an action to activate them. Not even a free action. If you need to make a decision regarding a feat, you usually can only make that decision during your turn (if otherwise then the feat will say).

Other feats give you an ability which takes an action to use. The feat is always on, but the new ability you gain from the feat is not. Such a feat will always say something like "as a standard action, you can ..." or "you gain the ability to ..., as per the spell."

If you're talking about the Elusive Target feat from Complete Warrior, then it goes like this: Negate Power Attack does not require an action to use, but only kicks in when you're using your Dodge feat, and you can only change who you're dodging on your turn. Diverting Defense does not take an action to use, but only kicks in when you're flanked and using your Dodge feat. Cause Overreach does not take a seperate action to use, but using it is part of a move action and the maneuver gives you an extra attack action (which you can only use to trip). Dodge does not take an action to use, but you can only change who you're using the feat against when it's your turn.

Tome Of Battle maneuvers all take an action to use; standard or full-round for strikes, swift for boosts, and immediate for counters. Each individual ToB maneuver is very explicit on what kinds of actions it requires, to the point of redundancy.
Eogan
11-21-07, 06:45 AM If you're talking about the Elusive Target feat from Complete Warrior, then it goes like this: Negate Power Attack does not require an action to use, but only kicks in when you're using your Dodge feat, and you can only change who you're dodging on your turn. Diverting Defense does not take an action to use, but only kicks in when you're flanked and using your Dodge feat. Cause Overreach does not take a seperate action to use, but using it is part of a move action and the maneuver gives you an extra attack action (which you can only use to trip). Dodge does not take an action to use, but you can only change who you're using the feat against when it's your turn.

That's exactly the Elusive Target feat I was thinking about. So what you're saying is that I CAN use two benefits (i.e., Diverting Defense + Negate Power Attack) of the feat against the same opponent that I am Dodging, as I do not need to take any action to trigger the feat but rather check at the moment of the opponent's attack if he qualifies for either?
InkBlot
11-21-07, 12:54 PM Exactly.
Eogan
11-22-07, 05:59 AM Thanks. So I'm not the only one to interpret it like that, this will at least give me a chance to argue this with my DM :) .

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eogan 11-16-07, 12:27 PM	When my character chooses a tactical feat, which usually gives three maneuvers, can he only use one of them in any situation, or could he use more if the necessary conditions are given? More explicitly: I would like to use Elusive Target, which would let my character negate Power Attack (if used by the opponent), Divert the attack (if being flanked) or Cause Overreach (when moving out of a threatened square and provoking an AoO). Now lets set up this situation: My rogue/swashbuckler is being flanked by two opponents, and the one of them that he is Dodging (attacker #1) uses power attack. Would that allow my character to use two of the feat's abilities, such as causing the first attack to miss and threaten the flanking opponent #2, while at the same time negating the power attack bonus of subsequent attacks by #1? Taking it further: In the next round, my character leaves the square, drawing AoO's of the two attackers. Thus, the attack #1, who is still being dodged, automatically misses (threatening his buddy again), resulting in a free trip attempt on my character's part. Another question related to Elusive Target: The Dodge ability granted by the Swashbuckler class does not qualify for this feat by any chance, allowing for both opponents to fall for its effects...? Now that would be a sight: Two flanking giants using Power attack and hitting each other over the head time and time again.... :w00t: I couldn't find any answer on this so far, so thanks for any help on the topic Eogan
Tordak 11-16-07, 01:08 PM	For the 1st part, yes you can. You can make use of your feat anytime you qualify for the action as described in the feat. Now I don't remember exactly the wording of elusive target, but as far as I remember the attacker #1 from the first example would power attack is friend and then would be denied is bonus to damage from power attack (while retaining the penalty) agaisnt you on his additional attack. For the second example, make sure what it says about 'attack and miss', but I think it would qualify as a miss and you would get your attack of opportunity. I'm too unsure about the swachbuckler question. But it's in the same book (CW), so I believe it would be covered if it where to qualify. I mean the swachbuckler ability should say how you use this dodge, and if you qualify for feat and PrC as if you had the dodge feat, and also if the 2 stacks.
Eerongal 11-16-07, 02:37 PM	it depends. Basically, if it specifies using it is a certain action (Standard, swift, move, immediate, AoO, etc) then you only get to use it at any time you could normally use such an action. And if two or more that take the same, or a currently unavailable action overlap, you get one or the other. If they don't specify an action, i would be inclined to believe that they are free when you qualify as such, meaning you could use any you qualify for when you qualify for them.
Eogan 11-19-07, 08:30 AM	Finally I have net-access again, so first of all thanks for the replies! Eerongal brings up a good point that I have overlooked so far, which maybe is the reason for my problem: What kind of action exactly is a "tactical maneuvre"? I did not find this as a rule-specific term anywhere, Complete Warrior just states that tactical feats allow their use. Obviously, as it takes place during an attack by another creature, the negation of the power attack it is not an action as such that my character can take, as is the diversion. So maybe the question comes down to whether I have to determine the benefit of the feat on my turn, and by choosing one target also giving it one and only one possible maneuver, or whether I just specify one opponent as the one who qualifies for either and decide during his attack which outcome I take, taking two benefits if the situation allows. So, new aspect of the question: Is the tactical maneuver specified exactly on my turn by choosing the feat (as a free action, or whatever other rule-term might apply), or can I choose to take several aspects if the target is eligible for them? Suggestions? And I think Tordak is right on the part of the Swbk Dodge ability, it would mention if it would allow to use it instead of the feat (if it's not there, it's not there...).
InkBlot 11-19-07, 05:46 PM	Tactical feats, and the tactical maneuvers they grant, follow the normal rules for feats. Note that the benefits granted by tactical feats are different from the system of maneuvers present in the Tome Of Battle. In books written after the release of Tome Of Battle, tactical feats refer to their benefits as tactical options. Most feats are always on, or kick in when certain other events happen. You don't need to take an action to activate them. Not even a free action. If you need to make a decision regarding a feat, you usually can only make that decision during your turn (if otherwise then the feat will say). Other feats give you an ability which takes an action to use. The feat is always on, but the new ability you gain from the feat is not. Such a feat will always say something like "as a standard action, you can ..." or "you gain the ability to ..., as per the spell." If you're talking about the Elusive Target feat from Complete Warrior, then it goes like this: Negate Power Attack does not require an action to use, but only kicks in when you're using your Dodge feat, and you can only change who you're dodging on your turn. Diverting Defense does not take an action to use, but only kicks in when you're flanked and using your Dodge feat. Cause Overreach does not take a seperate action to use, but using it is part of a move action and the maneuver gives you an extra attack action (which you can only use to trip). Dodge does not take an action to use, but you can only change who you're using the feat against when it's your turn. Tome Of Battle maneuvers all take an action to use; standard or full-round for strikes, swift for boosts, and immediate for counters. Each individual ToB maneuver is very explicit on what kinds of actions it requires, to the point of redundancy.
Eogan 11-21-07, 06:45 AM	If you're talking about the Elusive Target feat from Complete Warrior, then it goes like this: Negate Power Attack does not require an action to use, but only kicks in when you're using your Dodge feat, and you can only change who you're dodging on your turn. Diverting Defense does not take an action to use, but only kicks in when you're flanked and using your Dodge feat. Cause Overreach does not take a seperate action to use, but using it is part of a move action and the maneuver gives you an extra attack action (which you can only use to trip). Dodge does not take an action to use, but you can only change who you're using the feat against when it's your turn. That's exactly the Elusive Target feat I was thinking about. So what you're saying is that I CAN use two benefits (i.e., Diverting Defense + Negate Power Attack) of the feat against the same opponent that I am Dodging, as I do not need to take any action to trigger the feat but rather check at the moment of the opponent's attack if he qualifies for either?
InkBlot 11-21-07, 12:54 PM	Exactly.
Eogan 11-22-07, 05:59 AM	Thanks. So I'm not the only one to interpret it like that, this will at least give me a chance to argue this with my DM :) .