Tactical Movement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tactical Movement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Screams_of_the_Oak
04-16-07, 10:22 AM I just had a question I would like answered concerning tactical movement.

In a battle, there are a handful of feats which allow bonuses to those who are within close proximity of each other. In particular, there is a spartan (real spartan, none of this crap I've seen the forum spammed with) take on fighters I would like to create by using the phalanx feat from Complete Warrior with another character. The feat allows a nice AC bonus for being within proximity of each other, however you run into a problem when you factor in initiative.

What happens when we enter combat with completely different initiatives? While in a phalanx or any other tactical position, we should be reading each other's movements as well as our enemies to fight, shouldn't we? So why would one individual move forward, while the other lags behind?

Are there any feats which allow individuals to work on the same initiative, or better yet the same round?
Leilond
04-16-07, 10:26 AM There is the simple "delay action". The PCs with the higher initiative delay to act toghether with the "slowest", and I think this is the main "training" for phalanx soldiers
KoraktheBarbarin
04-16-07, 10:34 AM I would just rule that the higher initiative rolled would simply delay his/her action until the lower initiative sequence. At which point all involved would take there actions. It would make things simpler for the DM and all involved, but that's just my opinion.
Screams_of_the_Oak
04-16-07, 10:35 AM Delay action seems the only viable way to perform this type of action, but to me it seems a bit fuzzy. How could you avoid an enemy having the same initiative as the two (or more) moving individuals, but breaking the phalanx by having an initiative between the two fighters (one having a higher initiative than the other)?
KoraktheBarbarin
04-16-07, 10:35 AM I guess some typed my answer a little bit faster than I. Failed Initiative roll!! (ha ha)
Leilond
04-16-07, 10:56 AM Delay action seems the only viable way to perform this type of action, but to me it seems a bit fuzzy. How could you avoid an enemy having the same initiative as the two (or more) moving individuals, but breaking the phalanx by having an initiative between the two fighters (one having a higher initiative than the other)?

Sorry... but I didn't understand the sentence
All phalanx soldiers can delay until they act togheter after all the others acted if you want
The only things that matter is that all the phalanx soldiers must "start" the round in phalanx formation, but it is supposed they do because of their training
Once the stay "in phalanx formation" they can ALWAYS move at the same time, at least delaying their action (all them) until all enemies have moved or until there is a "free initiative number"
Screams_of_the_Oak
04-16-07, 11:18 AM Sorry... but I didn't understand the sentence
All phalanx soldiers can delay until they act togheter after all the others acted if you want
The only things that matter is that all the phalanx soldiers must "start" the round in phalanx formation, but it is supposed they do because of their training
Once the stay "in phalanx formation" they can ALWAYS move at the same time, at least delaying their action (all them) until all enemies have moved or until there is a "free initiative number"
I meant to say "initiative modifier". Here's an example:

Fighter 1 has an initiative modifier of 5, then rolls a 14 for a final initiative of 19. Fighter 2 has an initiative modifier of 3, and rolls much lower at 9, for a final 12. Troll 1 has an initiative modifier of 4, rolls an 8 and ends up with a 12. Troll 1 and Fighter two make opposing rolls, with a 14 for Fighter 2 and a 17 for troll 1.

Effectively, fighter 2 and troll 1 are still on the same initiative of 12, however troll 1 gets to move first.

Fighter 1 then makes his move action, then enters a phalanx position. Troll 1 double moves forward. Fighter 2 moves to fighter 1 and enters his phalanx. Fighter 1 decides to delay action to an iniative of 12. NOW, here comes the hard part to play. He has come down from a higher iniative to move on the same iniative of fighter 2. Does fighter 1 move, then allows troll 1 to move, then lets Fighter 2 move?

This would allow troll two to effectively attack one of the fighters if they moved 5 feet away from one another on the same round, and they would not have the +2 ac bonus.

Am I missing something here?
Leilond
04-16-07, 11:29 AM 1) Phalanx soldiers must START the combat in phalanx position, if they don't they're dumb and deserve to be wounded

2) If I was the phalanx soldiers I will delay ALL TOGHETER to 11 and move TOGHETER after the troll... pheraps you lose the "first move" but it is realistic because the "phalanx" postion combat it is perfectly belivable to be slower than "lone fighting" and it fit better as "defensive position that slowly move thowars the opponent"
Screams_of_the_Oak
04-16-07, 12:18 PM I think I'm just looking too deeply into this. The only part that confuses me is that the definition of initiative is "When you move" not "When you think you should move". This just creates conflicts with the characters having to make another adjustment to action after the troll.

But I see what you're saying, and moving one round later isn't very detrimental at low levels. When we get to epic combat, I'll cross the bridge as I come across it. Thanks for the help by the way. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Screams_of_the_Oak 04-16-07, 10:22 AM	I just had a question I would like answered concerning tactical movement. In a battle, there are a handful of feats which allow bonuses to those who are within close proximity of each other. In particular, there is a spartan (real spartan, none of this crap I've seen the forum spammed with) take on fighters I would like to create by using the phalanx feat from Complete Warrior with another character. The feat allows a nice AC bonus for being within proximity of each other, however you run into a problem when you factor in initiative. What happens when we enter combat with completely different initiatives? While in a phalanx or any other tactical position, we should be reading each other's movements as well as our enemies to fight, shouldn't we? So why would one individual move forward, while the other lags behind? Are there any feats which allow individuals to work on the same initiative, or better yet the same round?
Leilond 04-16-07, 10:26 AM	There is the simple "delay action". The PCs with the higher initiative delay to act toghether with the "slowest", and I think this is the main "training" for phalanx soldiers
KoraktheBarbarin 04-16-07, 10:34 AM	I would just rule that the higher initiative rolled would simply delay his/her action until the lower initiative sequence. At which point all involved would take there actions. It would make things simpler for the DM and all involved, but that's just my opinion.
Screams_of_the_Oak 04-16-07, 10:35 AM	Delay action seems the only viable way to perform this type of action, but to me it seems a bit fuzzy. How could you avoid an enemy having the same initiative as the two (or more) moving individuals, but breaking the phalanx by having an initiative between the two fighters (one having a higher initiative than the other)?
KoraktheBarbarin 04-16-07, 10:35 AM	I guess some typed my answer a little bit faster than I. Failed Initiative roll!! (ha ha)
Leilond 04-16-07, 10:56 AM	Delay action seems the only viable way to perform this type of action, but to me it seems a bit fuzzy. How could you avoid an enemy having the same initiative as the two (or more) moving individuals, but breaking the phalanx by having an initiative between the two fighters (one having a higher initiative than the other)? Sorry... but I didn't understand the sentence All phalanx soldiers can delay until they act togheter after all the others acted if you want The only things that matter is that all the phalanx soldiers must "start" the round in phalanx formation, but it is supposed they do because of their training Once the stay "in phalanx formation" they can ALWAYS move at the same time, at least delaying their action (all them) until all enemies have moved or until there is a "free initiative number"
Screams_of_the_Oak 04-16-07, 11:18 AM	Sorry... but I didn't understand the sentence All phalanx soldiers can delay until they act togheter after all the others acted if you want The only things that matter is that all the phalanx soldiers must "start" the round in phalanx formation, but it is supposed they do because of their training Once the stay "in phalanx formation" they can ALWAYS move at the same time, at least delaying their action (all them) until all enemies have moved or until there is a "free initiative number" I meant to say "initiative modifier". Here's an example: Fighter 1 has an initiative modifier of 5, then rolls a 14 for a final initiative of 19. Fighter 2 has an initiative modifier of 3, and rolls much lower at 9, for a final 12. Troll 1 has an initiative modifier of 4, rolls an 8 and ends up with a 12. Troll 1 and Fighter two make opposing rolls, with a 14 for Fighter 2 and a 17 for troll 1. Effectively, fighter 2 and troll 1 are still on the same initiative of 12, however troll 1 gets to move first. Fighter 1 then makes his move action, then enters a phalanx position. Troll 1 double moves forward. Fighter 2 moves to fighter 1 and enters his phalanx. Fighter 1 decides to delay action to an iniative of 12. NOW, here comes the hard part to play. He has come down from a higher iniative to move on the same iniative of fighter 2. Does fighter 1 move, then allows troll 1 to move, then lets Fighter 2 move? This would allow troll two to effectively attack one of the fighters if they moved 5 feet away from one another on the same round, and they would not have the +2 ac bonus. Am I missing something here?
Leilond 04-16-07, 11:29 AM	1) Phalanx soldiers must START the combat in phalanx position, if they don't they're dumb and deserve to be wounded 2) If I was the phalanx soldiers I will delay ALL TOGHETER to 11 and move TOGHETER after the troll... pheraps you lose the "first move" but it is realistic because the "phalanx" postion combat it is perfectly belivable to be slower than "lone fighting" and it fit better as "defensive position that slowly move thowars the opponent"
Screams_of_the_Oak 04-16-07, 12:18 PM	I think I'm just looking too deeply into this. The only part that confuses me is that the definition of initiative is "When you move" not "When you think you should move". This just creates conflicts with the characters having to make another adjustment to action after the troll. But I see what you're saying, and moving one round later isn't very detrimental at low levels. When we get to epic combat, I'll cross the bridge as I come across it. Thanks for the help by the way. :)