take 10 on perform [Archive] - Wizards Community

take 10 on perform [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
curan69
03-02-07, 08:44 AM Any reason a character cant pick up any instrument, take 10, and put on a routine performance?

Or with a +3 charisma bonus and +2 from a masterwork instrument put on an enjoyable performance ?(DC 15)
jaelis
03-02-07, 08:51 AM Doesn't work if you're in combat or some other stressful situation. If you're just playing in a bar to entertain or make a little money, there's no problem.
DrMorganes
03-02-07, 10:42 AM Doesn't work if you're in combat or some other stressful situation. If you're just playing in a bar to entertain or make a little money, there's no problem.

Agreed.
oracle71
03-02-07, 10:54 AM I have problems with this, mostly because I am a former musician, and I can personally attest to the fact that playing most musical instuments, and not utterly sucking at it, takes some amount of experience. I would say that you can't take 10 on perform (musical instrument) untrained, unless the character has Perform on it's list of class skills, or has the Jack of All Trades (or some similar) feat.

The character could start singing and take 10 on the perform check, as most people have some experience at singing, even if we have not training or discernable talent at it.
Rhuxley
03-02-07, 10:55 AM I house rule that you can only take 10 if you have at least 1 rank in the skill.
elondir
03-02-07, 11:08 AM As a musician, I can say you have good gigs and you have bad gigs, even if you practice like crazy. Weird stuff happens - strings break, amps blow, the stage collapses, or the sound system goes wacko, and you never know when it's going to happen. Or maybe your song lyrics offend someone, you never know what would happen. So I don't think taking 10 should on perform checks be allowed.

I also think that musical instrument perform checks should give the option of being dexterity based if your dexterity mod is higher. It gives the option of being more of a virtuoso (as in, stands in one place playing 64th notes for 32 measures straight) rather than a showman (as in, doing circle kicks to three-chord songs while pyros are going off). And if you've got super high modifiers in both CHA and DEX (maybe both are +5 or higher), maybe grant a +2 synergy bonus to the check to simulate virtuosity with good showmanship.
jacobi289
03-02-07, 11:48 AM I'd say you can't take a 10 untrained (could you pick up a tuba and suddenly know how to play it?).

That being said, taking a 10 implies that you have time to prepare and whatever else is necessary to do a fairly good job. If you're just picking it up and playing on the spot, that's not taking a 10.
Bob Loblaw
03-02-07, 11:51 AM I know a lot of naturally talented musicians who have had no training whatsoever. They are fun to listen to, and worth a few coppers or even silver. Note that the money earned is for the entire night, not each listener.

I do find it interesting that, at least by DnD rules, I can pick up any instrument and make a few coppers even those the only thing I can actually play is the radio.

Also, Taking 10 does not require any extra work. It is meant for routine checks. It requires the same amount of effort as not Taking 10, so long as you are not in a distracting situation.
Inigo Carmine
03-02-07, 01:07 PM I have problems with this, mostly because I am a former musician, and I can personally attest to the fact that playing most musical instuments, and not utterly sucking at it, takes some amount of experience. I would say that you can't take 10 on perform (musical instrument) untrained, unless the character has Perform on it's list of class skills, or has the Jack of All Trades (or some similar) feat.

I agree with the reasoning behind your argument, but disagree with your fix to it. Even with your fix, someone who doesn't know how to play the instrument could pick up some instrument and roll the d20 to get a 20. Your fix doesn't fix that.

I think what you're arguing is more for some form of "proficiency" with an instrument. A base penalty applied to any perform check with it, unless they have something that negates said penalty (ie they know how to use that instrument). I would also argue that the DCs listed for performances are much too low.

I also think that musical instrument perform checks should give the option of being dexterity based if your dexterity mod is higher. It gives the option of being more of a virtuoso (as in, stands in one place playing 64th notes for 32 measures straight) rather than a showman (as in, doing circle kicks to three-chord songs while pyros are going off). And if you've got super high modifiers in both CHA and DEX (maybe both are +5 or higher), maybe grant a +2 synergy bonus to the check to simulate virtuosity with good showmanship.

I think what you're trying to do here is describe something that the perform skill is not. On a side note, I'm guessing you're a string player (and reference to amps leads me to guess guitarist). Not all instruments are dex-dependant. Trumpet requires very little dexterity (used to play one myself), and singing even less so. ;).

There's a difference between people enjoying something because of its technical excellence and people enjoying it because the way its presented. I would be all for such a skill in D&D, though by and large it would be useless as a mechanic; pure fluff.

This is similar with normal public debate and speech. One can bring people to their cause with facts and data. One can bring people to their cause with lies, BS and emotional pleas.

The same is true of music: technical ability and performance would be two different skills determined by two different stats. While they should certainly enhance eachother one is not required for the other. One only has to turn on a radio to see that technical ability with an instrument is not a requirement for music to become widely popular.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
curan69 03-02-07, 08:44 AM	Any reason a character cant pick up any instrument, take 10, and put on a routine performance? Or with a +3 charisma bonus and +2 from a masterwork instrument put on an enjoyable performance ?(DC 15)
jaelis 03-02-07, 08:51 AM	Doesn't work if you're in combat or some other stressful situation. If you're just playing in a bar to entertain or make a little money, there's no problem.
DrMorganes 03-02-07, 10:42 AM	Doesn't work if you're in combat or some other stressful situation. If you're just playing in a bar to entertain or make a little money, there's no problem. Agreed.
oracle71 03-02-07, 10:54 AM	I have problems with this, mostly because I am a former musician, and I can personally attest to the fact that playing most musical instuments, and not utterly sucking at it, takes some amount of experience. I would say that you can't take 10 on perform (musical instrument) untrained, unless the character has Perform on it's list of class skills, or has the Jack of All Trades (or some similar) feat. The character could start singing and take 10 on the perform check, as most people have some experience at singing, even if we have not training or discernable talent at it.
Rhuxley 03-02-07, 10:55 AM	I house rule that you can only take 10 if you have at least 1 rank in the skill.
elondir 03-02-07, 11:08 AM	As a musician, I can say you have good gigs and you have bad gigs, even if you practice like crazy. Weird stuff happens - strings break, amps blow, the stage collapses, or the sound system goes wacko, and you never know when it's going to happen. Or maybe your song lyrics offend someone, you never know what would happen. So I don't think taking 10 should on perform checks be allowed. I also think that musical instrument perform checks should give the option of being dexterity based if your dexterity mod is higher. It gives the option of being more of a virtuoso (as in, stands in one place playing 64th notes for 32 measures straight) rather than a showman (as in, doing circle kicks to three-chord songs while pyros are going off). And if you've got super high modifiers in both CHA and DEX (maybe both are +5 or higher), maybe grant a +2 synergy bonus to the check to simulate virtuosity with good showmanship.
jacobi289 03-02-07, 11:48 AM	I'd say you can't take a 10 untrained (could you pick up a tuba and suddenly know how to play it?). That being said, taking a 10 implies that you have time to prepare and whatever else is necessary to do a fairly good job. If you're just picking it up and playing on the spot, that's not taking a 10.
Bob Loblaw 03-02-07, 11:51 AM	I know a lot of naturally talented musicians who have had no training whatsoever. They are fun to listen to, and worth a few coppers or even silver. Note that the money earned is for the entire night, not each listener. I do find it interesting that, at least by DnD rules, I can pick up any instrument and make a few coppers even those the only thing I can actually play is the radio. Also, Taking 10 does not require any extra work. It is meant for routine checks. It requires the same amount of effort as not Taking 10, so long as you are not in a distracting situation.
Inigo Carmine 03-02-07, 01:07 PM	I have problems with this, mostly because I am a former musician, and I can personally attest to the fact that playing most musical instuments, and not utterly sucking at it, takes some amount of experience. I would say that you can't take 10 on perform (musical instrument) untrained, unless the character has Perform on it's list of class skills, or has the Jack of All Trades (or some similar) feat. I agree with the reasoning behind your argument, but disagree with your fix to it. Even with your fix, someone who doesn't know how to play the instrument could pick up some instrument and roll the d20 to get a 20. Your fix doesn't fix that. I think what you're arguing is more for some form of "proficiency" with an instrument. A base penalty applied to any perform check with it, unless they have something that negates said penalty (ie they know how to use that instrument). I would also argue that the DCs listed for performances are much too low. I also think that musical instrument perform checks should give the option of being dexterity based if your dexterity mod is higher. It gives the option of being more of a virtuoso (as in, stands in one place playing 64th notes for 32 measures straight) rather than a showman (as in, doing circle kicks to three-chord songs while pyros are going off). And if you've got super high modifiers in both CHA and DEX (maybe both are +5 or higher), maybe grant a +2 synergy bonus to the check to simulate virtuosity with good showmanship. I think what you're trying to do here is describe something that the perform skill is not. On a side note, I'm guessing you're a string player (and reference to amps leads me to guess guitarist). Not all instruments are dex-dependant. Trumpet requires very little dexterity (used to play one myself), and singing even less so. ;). There's a difference between people enjoying something because of its technical excellence and people enjoying it because the way its presented. I would be all for such a skill in D&D, though by and large it would be useless as a mechanic; pure fluff. This is similar with normal public debate and speech. One can bring people to their cause with facts and data. One can bring people to their cause with lies, BS and emotional pleas. The same is true of music: technical ability and performance would be two different skills determined by two different stats. While they should certainly enhance eachother one is not required for the other. One only has to turn on a radio to see that technical ability with an instrument is not a requirement for music to become widely popular.