Take feats without meeting requirements? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Take feats without meeting requirements? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FrostHammer
03-06-07, 04:13 PM From the 3.5 FAQ:

"Can a character wearing heavy armor use Whirlwind
Attack (Player’s Handbook, page 102)? A character cannot
use Spring Attack (Player’s Handbook, page 100), a
prerequisite for this feat, in heavy armor.
Just because you’re barred from benefiting from a feat
doesn’t mean that you don’t have it any more. A character
incapable of using Spring Attack due to wearing heavy armor
still has the feat, and thus still meets the prerequisites for
Whirlwind Attack."

Ok...so does that mean I can select feats that I don't have the prerequesites for, and I don't gain any use from them unitl i've satisfied the requirements?
Sleepwalker13666
03-06-07, 04:16 PM There was a variant rule in a Dragon Magazine that allowed it, I think the example was a rogue taking weapon foucs at level 1 but gaining the benefits at level 2 when he met the requirements.
Melpomene
03-06-07, 04:24 PM I generally allow it, although it can allow for a moderate level of cheese if the game starts at a later level (say, five, where all my campaigns start).
tiluvias99
03-06-07, 04:39 PM Edited out for stupidity. My bad, folks.
tarkin
03-06-07, 04:42 PM You are allowed to use magic to meet pre-reqs.

So if your strength is 10, but you have a Belt of Giant Strength +6, then take the feat Power Attack.

Note, if you lose the Belt, you won't be able to do Power Attack, but you will keep the feat.
tiluvias99
03-06-07, 05:37 PM You sure on that Tarkin?

Got a quote for me somewhere?

edit: Damn I'm dumb. pg 87, PHB.
Loki5654
03-06-07, 05:43 PM You are allowed to use magic to meet pre-reqs.

So if your strength is 10, but you have a Belt of Giant Strength +6, then take the feat Power Attack.

Note, if you lose the Belt, you won't be able to do Power Attack, but you will keep the feat.
But the other side of that coin is: You must meet the requirements before you can take the feat.
SALDAR
03-06-07, 05:55 PM Ok...so does that mean I can select feats that I don't have the prerequesites for, and I don't gain any use from them unitl i've satisfied the requirements?

No. In order to take the feat to start with you must meet the prerequisites. If at a later time you lose the prereqs then you lose the use of that feat, not the feat itself. The FAQ is discussing a feat that has another feat as a prereq. If you lose the ability to use the prereq feat you can still use the feat that has it as a prereq because you still have the prereq feat. You are just unable to use the prereq feat.
tiercel
03-06-07, 06:25 PM It might be an OK houserule, at least on a case-by-case basis, to allow characters to take feats that they do not yet meet the requirements of. You can certainly see how some character types would benefit -- rogues could take Weapon Finesse at 1st level and have it kick in at 2nd instead of having to wait until 3rd level, paladins could take [Divine] feats whenever and have them kick in at 4th level rather than having to wait until 6th level, etc.

Note that this houserule is particularly advantageous to human characters since that bonus 1st level feat can now be used for *anything*, not just a feat that you could qualify for at 1st level.

This houserule would open up the potential for advancing through feat trees faster, but I'm not sure if that is too much of a problem overall. The main thing I think would be not to allow a character to take a feat without meeting the prerequisites and then somehow allow that feat to serve as a prereq for a PrC before the character even meets the prereq for the feat in question.

However, such a rule would be a houserule, and like all houserules, you'd want to think through the consequences of any given application to make sure something awful doesn't happen when you happen to use it like *this* or *that* in particular.
runestar
03-06-07, 08:40 PM As a houserule, it would have to be closely monitored.
I can see an epic character opting to spend all his normal feats on epic feats. That he cannot use them until he is epic is moot since he starts the game as an epic character anyways.:P
chromeraven
03-06-07, 09:12 PM my campaign allows this and for the most part it works well. The DM is very concientous about checking which feats we opt to use this rule with and quashes our hopes and dreams when any funny business is tried. so, i like it as a house rule, but by RAW, no.
paladin2019
03-07-07, 01:11 AM Wow, another 180 from D&D3E to 3.5 :rolleyes:
Sleepwalker13666
03-07-07, 02:17 AM I allow it, at most it allows characters to use a feat a level or two sooner, it's never had a big impact on my game and few of my playes actually take advantage of it.
Grave_Accomplice
03-07-07, 07:52 AM Ok...so does that mean I can select feats that I don't have the prerequesites for, and I don't gain any use from them unitl i've satisfied the requirements?

There is a published precident for it in Star Wars d20. One Jedi had the Dodge feat, but could not use it until he amped his Dex via force skills. Since this jedi was (for all intents and purposes) a sentient dinosaur, I don't think the lower dex was due to age.
Egres
03-07-07, 11:29 AM Wow, another 180 from D&D3E to 3.5 :rolleyes:
Please, elaborate.
jameswilliamogle
03-07-07, 11:43 AM In a RAW game, you have to meet the prereq's to select a feat. Supposedly, you can meet those prereq's through temporary abilities...

But things aren't clear enough about this, imo.
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the
indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus,
or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.I've been playing the Binder class in a few campaigns, and this "other quality" thing gets me. A Binder that binds Tenebrous is given the ability to Turn/Rebuke undead by that vestige once / 5 rounds, as a cleric of = binding level. Does this mean that the characters can now take Divine Metamagic, Sacred Shield, Divine Vigor, and such? CustServ has ruled no, but it doesn't make much sense. Same thing for Sneak Attack feats and Andromalus. If that was the case, though, then the Binder could never take Ability Focus for any of the abilities either.

I think that the intention was that "other quality" meant "other quality not one of the former"; this is the only way that the CustServ ruling makes sense. If this were the case, then you couldn't use magic items for feat prereq's, which isn't what I've been told is the case (all very contradictory). I have no other evidence, though. Here's the whole discussion on this particular situation: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11326619&postcount=181
Harliquinn
03-07-07, 03:03 PM Feats have pre-requisities for the express purpose of dictating when you can take them in the character progression. Allowing feats to be taken early negates this limitation. For instance, with your house rule a druid could take Natural Spell at 1st and start using it at 4th level. However, by RAW the druid can't take it until 6th level (The next time they gain a feat after meeting the prerequisites). That's 2 levels earlier than normal and that's just one example.

For rogues, just removing the +1 BAB on Weapon Finesse is a good house rule solution.

Harliquinn
paladin2019
03-07-07, 03:03 PM Wow, another 180 from D&D3E to 3.5 :rolleyes:Please, elaborate.

In 3.0, if you lost access to a prerequisite, you lost access to anything it was a prerequisite for. The 3.0 FAQ agreed with this. I didn't see anything in 3.5 RAW contradicting this interpretation, but the FAQ now does.

As I like to say, FAQ'd again.
benihana
03-07-07, 04:17 PM Feats have pre-requisities for the express purpose of dictating when you can take them in the character progression. Allowing feats to be taken early negates this limitation. For instance, with your house rule a druid could take Natural Spell at 1st and start using it at 4th level. However, by RAW the druid can't take it until 6th level (The next time they gain a feat after meeting the prerequisites). That's 2 levels earlier than normal and that's just one example.

For rogues, just removing the +1 BAB on Weapon Finesse is a good house rule solution.

Harliquinn
I think it's an even tradeoff. The druid gets to use the feat 2 levels early. But for level 1-3, he lacked any benefit from a feat.

To use the rogue example-

Normally, this is how it goes:
Level 1 - Feat. 1 Benefit.
Level 2- Nothing. 1 Benefit.
Level 3- Weapon finesse. 2 Benefits.

Otherwise, you can go:
Level 1 - Weapon finesse. Not qualified, 0 Benefit.
Level 2 - Weapon finesse. 1 Benefit.
Level 3 - New feat. 2 Benefits.

The tradeoff is that he gets to use an ability at an earlier level. He spends level 1 underpowered and level 2 overpowered. At level 3 he evens out.
Elzaban the Ethereal
03-07-07, 06:00 PM Everyone knows the acceptable way to get feats without meeting prerequisites is to take Rogue 10 and then take a bonus feat for the special ability:

Did I never tell you guys about Hungry Jack? He was a human rogue, who took his 10th level bonus feat as Gape of the Serpent - which is totally legal because he can take any feat he wants and doesn't have to meet prereqs as it is a bonus feat.

So he ran around eating people, which was totally awesome. Truly a great character. Not overpowered, not even really all that good. But it made for a great intro to intimidate checks.

I will eat you.

Good times.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 03-06-07, 04:13 PM	From the 3.5 FAQ: "Can a character wearing heavy armor use Whirlwind Attack (Player’s Handbook, page 102)? A character cannot use Spring Attack (Player’s Handbook, page 100), a prerequisite for this feat, in heavy armor. Just because you’re barred from benefiting from a feat doesn’t mean that you don’t have it any more. A character incapable of using Spring Attack due to wearing heavy armor still has the feat, and thus still meets the prerequisites for Whirlwind Attack." Ok...so does that mean I can select feats that I don't have the prerequesites for, and I don't gain any use from them unitl i've satisfied the requirements?
Sleepwalker13666 03-06-07, 04:16 PM	There was a variant rule in a Dragon Magazine that allowed it, I think the example was a rogue taking weapon foucs at level 1 but gaining the benefits at level 2 when he met the requirements.
Melpomene 03-06-07, 04:24 PM	I generally allow it, although it can allow for a moderate level of cheese if the game starts at a later level (say, five, where all my campaigns start).
tiluvias99 03-06-07, 04:39 PM	Edited out for stupidity. My bad, folks.
tarkin 03-06-07, 04:42 PM	You are allowed to use magic to meet pre-reqs. So if your strength is 10, but you have a Belt of Giant Strength +6, then take the feat Power Attack. Note, if you lose the Belt, you won't be able to do Power Attack, but you will keep the feat.
tiluvias99 03-06-07, 05:37 PM	You sure on that Tarkin? Got a quote for me somewhere? edit: Damn I'm dumb. pg 87, PHB.
Loki5654 03-06-07, 05:43 PM	You are allowed to use magic to meet pre-reqs. So if your strength is 10, but you have a Belt of Giant Strength +6, then take the feat Power Attack. Note, if you lose the Belt, you won't be able to do Power Attack, but you will keep the feat. But the other side of that coin is: You must meet the requirements before you can take the feat.
SALDAR 03-06-07, 05:55 PM	Ok...so does that mean I can select feats that I don't have the prerequesites for, and I don't gain any use from them unitl i've satisfied the requirements? No. In order to take the feat to start with you must meet the prerequisites. If at a later time you lose the prereqs then you lose the use of that feat, not the feat itself. The FAQ is discussing a feat that has another feat as a prereq. If you lose the ability to use the prereq feat you can still use the feat that has it as a prereq because you still have the prereq feat. You are just unable to use the prereq feat.
tiercel 03-06-07, 06:25 PM	It might be an OK houserule, at least on a case-by-case basis, to allow characters to take feats that they do not yet meet the requirements of. You can certainly see how some character types would benefit -- rogues could take Weapon Finesse at 1st level and have it kick in at 2nd instead of having to wait until 3rd level, paladins could take [Divine] feats whenever and have them kick in at 4th level rather than having to wait until 6th level, etc. Note that this houserule is particularly advantageous to human characters since that bonus 1st level feat can now be used for anything, not just a feat that you could qualify for at 1st level. This houserule would open up the potential for advancing through feat trees faster, but I'm not sure if that is too much of a problem overall. The main thing I think would be not to allow a character to take a feat without meeting the prerequisites and then somehow allow that feat to serve as a prereq for a PrC before the character even meets the prereq for the feat in question. However, such a rule would be a houserule, and like all houserules, you'd want to think through the consequences of any given application to make sure something awful doesn't happen when you happen to use it like this or that in particular.
runestar 03-06-07, 08:40 PM	As a houserule, it would have to be closely monitored. I can see an epic character opting to spend all his normal feats on epic feats. That he cannot use them until he is epic is moot since he starts the game as an epic character anyways.:P
chromeraven 03-06-07, 09:12 PM	my campaign allows this and for the most part it works well. The DM is very concientous about checking which feats we opt to use this rule with and quashes our hopes and dreams when any funny business is tried. so, i like it as a house rule, but by RAW, no.
paladin2019 03-07-07, 01:11 AM	Wow, another 180 from D&D3E to 3.5 :rolleyes:
Sleepwalker13666 03-07-07, 02:17 AM	I allow it, at most it allows characters to use a feat a level or two sooner, it's never had a big impact on my game and few of my playes actually take advantage of it.
Grave_Accomplice 03-07-07, 07:52 AM	Ok...so does that mean I can select feats that I don't have the prerequesites for, and I don't gain any use from them unitl i've satisfied the requirements? There is a published precident for it in Star Wars d20. One Jedi had the Dodge feat, but could not use it until he amped his Dex via force skills. Since this jedi was (for all intents and purposes) a sentient dinosaur, I don't think the lower dex was due to age.
Egres 03-07-07, 11:29 AM	Wow, another 180 from D&D3E to 3.5 :rolleyes: Please, elaborate.
jameswilliamogle 03-07-07, 11:43 AM	In a RAW game, you have to meet the prereq's to select a feat. Supposedly, you can meet those prereq's through temporary abilities... But things aren't clear enough about this, imo. Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.I've been playing the Binder class in a few campaigns, and this "other quality" thing gets me. A Binder that binds Tenebrous is given the ability to Turn/Rebuke undead by that vestige once / 5 rounds, as a cleric of = binding level. Does this mean that the characters can now take Divine Metamagic, Sacred Shield, Divine Vigor, and such? CustServ has ruled no, but it doesn't make much sense. Same thing for Sneak Attack feats and Andromalus. If that was the case, though, then the Binder could never take Ability Focus for any of the abilities either. I think that the intention was that "other quality" meant "other quality not one of the former"; this is the only way that the CustServ ruling makes sense. If this were the case, then you couldn't use magic items for feat prereq's, which isn't what I've been told is the case (all very contradictory). I have no other evidence, though. Here's the whole discussion on this particular situation: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11326619&postcount=181
Harliquinn 03-07-07, 03:03 PM	Feats have pre-requisities for the express purpose of dictating when you can take them in the character progression. Allowing feats to be taken early negates this limitation. For instance, with your house rule a druid could take Natural Spell at 1st and start using it at 4th level. However, by RAW the druid can't take it until 6th level (The next time they gain a feat after meeting the prerequisites). That's 2 levels earlier than normal and that's just one example. For rogues, just removing the +1 BAB on Weapon Finesse is a good house rule solution. Harliquinn
paladin2019 03-07-07, 03:03 PM	Wow, another 180 from D&D3E to 3.5 :rolleyes:Please, elaborate. In 3.0, if you lost access to a prerequisite, you lost access to anything it was a prerequisite for. The 3.0 FAQ agreed with this. I didn't see anything in 3.5 RAW contradicting this interpretation, but the FAQ now does. As I like to say, FAQ'd again.
benihana 03-07-07, 04:17 PM	Feats have pre-requisities for the express purpose of dictating when you can take them in the character progression. Allowing feats to be taken early negates this limitation. For instance, with your house rule a druid could take Natural Spell at 1st and start using it at 4th level. However, by RAW the druid can't take it until 6th level (The next time they gain a feat after meeting the prerequisites). That's 2 levels earlier than normal and that's just one example. For rogues, just removing the +1 BAB on Weapon Finesse is a good house rule solution. Harliquinn I think it's an even tradeoff. The druid gets to use the feat 2 levels early. But for level 1-3, he lacked any benefit from a feat. To use the rogue example- Normally, this is how it goes: Level 1 - Feat. 1 Benefit. Level 2- Nothing. 1 Benefit. Level 3- Weapon finesse. 2 Benefits. Otherwise, you can go: Level 1 - Weapon finesse. Not qualified, 0 Benefit. Level 2 - Weapon finesse. 1 Benefit. Level 3 - New feat. 2 Benefits. The tradeoff is that he gets to use an ability at an earlier level. He spends level 1 underpowered and level 2 overpowered. At level 3 he evens out.
Elzaban the Ethereal 03-07-07, 06:00 PM	Everyone knows the acceptable way to get feats without meeting prerequisites is to take Rogue 10 and then take a bonus feat for the special ability: Did I never tell you guys about Hungry Jack? He was a human rogue, who took his 10th level bonus feat as Gape of the Serpent - which is totally legal because he can take any feat he wants and doesn't have to meet prereqs as it is a bonus feat. So he ran around eating people, which was totally awesome. Truly a great character. Not overpowered, not even really all that good. But it made for a great intro to intimidate checks. I will eat you. Good times.