Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RobbyPants 05-18-07, 11:57 AM	Perhaps there is already one I don't know of... I'm expanding the sorcerer heritage feats for my upcoming campaign. I was thinking about making a feat to (either temporarily or permanently) grant telepathy to a sorcerer with either infernal or abyssal heritage. Would this be too powerful? The only class ability I know of that grants this is the Mindbender. The only item I know of is the Helm of Telepathy. My original idea was to have the prereq be something like four herigate (infernal or abyssal) feats (similar to the prereq of Draconic Legacy). Then you'd get telepathy with a 100 foot range. If this seemed too powerful, I was thinking of using the expend-a-spell-slot mechanic of so many other heritage feats. Perhaps you expend a spell slot and gain telepathy within 100 feet for a number of rounds (or maybe minutes) equal to the level of the spell slot sacrificed. Alternately, the duration increases, but the range is 10 feet per level of the spell slot. In either case, I would remove the prereq of four feats... So, what do you think? Is the idea good? Is the first version (permanent) okay? Or for that matter, does this feat already exist in some book? :P
RobbyPants 05-19-07, 10:33 AM	:bump:
teshen 05-19-07, 06:14 PM	Well, there is an alternate class ability in the Mind's Eye articles that grants telepathy as a class ability in place of the psion's (telepath) fifth level feat and the distance is equal to manifester level. Mindbender grants 100' telepathy at character level six at the earliest... So a specific heritage feat to do it at ninth level level (four character feats) wouldn't be so bad... maybe 20' telepathy per heritage feat as a supernatural ability... The problem I see is that as you come out with more ways to hand out a special ability, the less cool it becomes... but that could just be me. :)
Cala, Legend Reborn 05-19-07, 06:24 PM	The telepathy variant ability has range 5xML.
jaelis 05-19-07, 09:26 PM	You could just have the feat grant telepathic bond as a spell known, though you'd probably want something more too. That keeps it simple.
RobbyPants 05-20-07, 11:16 AM	Thanks for all the input! :D The problem I see is that as you come out with more ways to hand out a special ability, the less cool it becomes... but that could just be me. :) Yeah, I had that same thought. It's not that it seemed so powerful more as rare. Hopefully, it shouldn't be a problem. This feat requires you to be a sorcerer with either abyssal or infernal heritage, so it limits it to a minority of a specific class.
teshen 05-20-07, 10:09 PM	The telepathy variant ability has range 5xML. You are correct. I knew that... I just misspoke/typed. It's not that it seemed so powerful more as rare. Hopefully, it shouldn't be a problem. This feat requires you to be a sorcerer with either abyssal or infernal heritage, so it limits it to a minority of a specific class. True enough. It makes sense. I think there's even a substitution level for tieflings somewhere that gives telepathy, but I am not certain... but the ability to converse silently can be quite powerful depending on how creative your players are. If for no other reason, it makes coordinating an ambush much easier.
Lina_Inverse 05-21-07, 06:27 AM	Thanks for all the input! :D Yeah, I had that same thought. It's not that it seemed so powerful more as rare. Hopefully, it shouldn't be a problem. This feat requires you to be a sorcerer with either abyssal or infernal heritage, so it limits it to a minority of a specific class. Telepathy is incredibly powerful, it lets the party plan battle strategys without alerting its opponents. It is not appropriate as a feat. Especially not for sorcerers.
RobbyPants 05-21-07, 10:27 AM	... but the ability to converse silently can be quite powerful depending on how creative your players are. If for no other reason, it makes coordinating an ambush much easier. Yeah, I had my players fighting a cerebrelith (sp?), a psionic demon. On the surprise round, it did an Ego Whip on the fighter (hitting him for a decent amount of his Cha). On it's first round it gated in a 2nd cerebrelith. They telepathically communicated, so the second knew to continue using Ego Whips to take down the fighter... Telepathy is incredibly powerful, it lets the party plan battle strategys without alerting its opponents. It is not appropriate as a feat. Especially not for sorcerers. Well, perhaps I need to set up a minimum level, to keep it on par with the mindbender ability (about 6th level or so, minimum). The PCs can only communicate telepthically with the sorcerer, and only if he initiates it. I supposed people could funnel their communications through him... Rogue: Hey sorcerer, tell the fighter I want to flank the leader! Sorcerer: Fighter, rogue wants to flank the leader with you. Fighter: Ask him if he wants the left side or right side... Eh, you get the idea. This reminds me of that line from the 4th Harry Potter where Hermione yells at the two for using her as a go-between: "I'm not an owl!" There are ways around it, luckily. Carrying on a telepathic conversation is as difficult as carrying on a regular conversation. Thus, trying to talk and telepathically communicate at the same time is lible to result in problems (ie, saying the wrong thing out loud! :P). So, to prevent this, the telepath might wish to remain silent. If someone is getting nervous (and they have access to the spell) they can always cast Detect Thoughts to see if the PCs are having a side conversation. Also, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Telepathic villians can be quite nice too.
teshen 05-21-07, 11:36 AM	Well, perhaps I need to set up a minimum level, to keep it on par with the mindbender ability (about 6th level or so, minimum). . . . There are ways around it, luckily. Carrying on a telepathic conversation is as difficult as carrying on a regular conversation. Thus, trying to talk and telepathically communicate at the same time is lible to result in problems (ie, saying the wrong thing out loud! :P). So, to prevent this, the telepath might wish to remain silent. If someone is getting nervous (and they have access to the spell) they can always cast Detect Thoughts to see if the PCs are having a side conversation. I don't actually think that mindbender is a good comparison... even though it is probably the most visible (and easiest way...). Most of the people I have heard discussing mindbender only use it for the first level... comparing it to what the level adjustment of some of the monster manual creatures that have telepathy might be a better comparison... but I'm not sure. I think the variant psion (telepath) is just too sweet to pass up as well if you're going that route... which means it's probably too good, but I'm still fine with the variant as it scales slowly... But still, I think your idea has merit. Require four or five heritage (abyssal/infernal) feats and some sort of odd skill prerequisite for the sorcerer (like ranks in sense motive) and it becomes a harder choice to take the feat or not take the feat... and difficult mechanical decisions tend to be a decent indicator of balanced options... And I really don't think that telepathy is like carrying on a normal conversation is a balancing point in any of it... because you can take your time in a conversation or enunciate when you need to... but that could just be my take on it.
RobbyPants 05-21-07, 12:24 PM	But still, I think your idea has merit. Require four or five heritage (abyssal/infernal) feats and some sort of odd skill prerequisite for the sorcerer (like ranks in sense motive) and it becomes a harder choice to take the feat or not take the feat... and difficult mechanical decisions tend to be a decent indicator of balanced options... Great idea! The idea of X skill ranks never even occured to me. Sense motive is a good one. If I set it to something like 4+ ranks, that will require 5 levels in sorcerer. If the player really wants to dip out a level to get it as a class skill, then they're effectively nerfing their caster level by one just to get telepathy (which I would consider a bad trade). I could up the ranks slightly, perhaps to 6, which would require nine sorcerer levels. I still have to put some thought into this one... It's a good level-limiting factor, and it forces the sorcerer to spend precious skill points. I'm also toying with setting the range to something like 10 feet per abyssal/infernal heritage feat. By the time they get it, the range will probably be 50 feet or so, so that might not be a good limiting factor... And I really don't think that telepathy is like carrying on a normal conversation is a balancing point in any of it... because you can take your time in a conversation or enunciate when you need to... but that could just be my take on it. True, true. And realistically, in a group of four (or whatever PCs), only one of them should be talking at a time (with the NPC), which leaves the others free to carry on a silent side-conversation.
psionichamster 05-21-07, 01:10 PM	i like the idea that u'd need the infernal heritage feats... but what about the other ones? aren't some of the archons telepathic? and mindbender is really really good for that 1 lvl dip. as far as the power level of telepathy, its nice and all, but just watch out for the "Mindsight" feat. its from Lords of Madness (and in a difficult to find page/sidebar) so many people wont really find it, but its really really nice. basically gives you the ability to know the type/int/location of thinking creatures with your telepathy. my beguiler/mindbender has it, and i LOVE it, but many DM's would hate it beyond all measure. -the hamster
RobbyPants 05-21-07, 02:51 PM	i like the idea that u'd need the infernal heritage feats... but what about the other ones? aren't some of the archons telepathic? Some archons might have telepathy, but archons as a group don't. The general trend is that celestials all have the tongues ability, and fiends all have telepathy. Which gets me thinking that I might want some type of celestial tongues feat, but I'm not really sure about that one. As it stands, there is already a feat (Celestial Sorcerer Legacy?) in the PHB2 that gives a sorcerer three new spells on their list of spells known, one of which is tongues. as far as the power level of telepathy, its nice and all, but just watch out for the "Mindsight" feat. its from Lords of Madness (and in a difficult to find page/sidebar) so many people wont really find it, but its really really nice. basically gives you the ability to know the type/int/location of thinking creatures with your telepathy. Hmmm... I haven't read Lords of Madness. So far, that wouldn't be a problem for my game (although it could be for others), as I have a general rule about only allowing things in my game from books that I own. That's a cool ability though. It sort of combines a weaker form of detect thoughts with the telepathy ability.
teshen 05-21-07, 04:50 PM	and mindbender is really really good for that 1 lvl dip. Yes, it is... and that was what I was thinking about, at least in part, when the RobbyPants asked about adding a heritage feat to allow for telepathy... as far as the power level of telepathy, its nice and all, but just watch out for the "Mindsight" feat. its from Lords of Madness (and in a difficult to find page/sidebar) so many people wont really find it, but its really really nice. basically gives you the ability to know the type/int/location of thinking creatures with your telepathy. my beguiler/mindbender has it, and i LOVE it, but many DM's would hate it beyond all measure. Yes. The mindsight feat is indeed pimp. It's much better than just a bonus detect thoughts. I think, even though the prerequisites don't preclude other creatures from it, that it was intended for npc monsters since it's in an area of the book about a specific race of aberration rather than in the area of the book which has the character feats... but intent is not rules. I'm also toying with setting the range to something like 10 feet per abyssal/infernal heritage feat. By the time they get it, the range will probably be 50 feet or so, so that might not be a good limiting factor... I like abilities that scale based on something... like x per 3 levels or so... and I like the 'per heritage feat' idea since other heritage feats are based off that model. I would suggest a little more distance though, such as 10' + 10' per infernal/abyssal heritage feat or 15' or 20' per infernal/abyssal heritage feat... if you don't get the range out there, then it's a non-issue since just about everyone is out of its range until it's too late.
robitusinz 05-21-07, 05:21 PM	Does it have to be 100' telepathy? Normal human conversation doesn't go out beyond 15-20 feet or so. I'm thinking a limited form of telepathy with a single target within 20' could be a useful, but not broken feat. The biggest problem I see with telepathy is in long-range use, where it can do things you can't normally do with speech. i.e the party rogue scouts ahead 60 feet, while the telepath relays whatever he finds to the party. In the case of short range, telepathy wouldn't be any more useful than learning a secret sign language, or just being able to read body language.
teshen 05-23-07, 08:00 PM	Does it have to be 100' telepathy? Normal human conversation doesn't go out beyond 15-20 feet or so. I'm thinking a limited form of telepathy with a single target within 20' could be a useful, but not broken feat. Actually, up to 25' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxemics)... but that's just me being **** retentive. The 100' for telepathy is a hold-over from some evil creatures who have it as a natural ability. Different ranges could work for feats or prc abilities... it's just usually done at 100'. The question I would ask, though, is what happens when you don't have to worry about voice and volume to convey subtlety and nuance? Space becomes less of an issue in language and more about territory... The biggest problem I see with telepathy is in long-range use, where it can do things you can't normally do with speech. i.e the party rogue scouts ahead 60 feet, while the telepath relays whatever he finds to the party. In the case of short range, telepathy wouldn't be any more useful than learning a secret sign language, or just being able to read body language. Possibly, but nobody else has a chance to figure out you're communicating by catching a handsign or two. You might even be able to establish a liason with someone you've 'never met' in this fashion... adding cloak and dagger elements to things. At your 60' example, a character can cover that in one turn. A rogue that's only scouting 60' ahead could still be penalized by the rest of the party with the jingling of armor or the clumsiness of some members. He needs more room to 'breathe' in this case... but that could just be my take on things. Thirty feet worth of telepathy would work for just about all social uses. Edit: **** Retentive? With all the possible garbage one can type this gets censored? It's a psychological term for describing persons with a tendency towards compulsion and it was coined by Freud from his seven phases of child development... Society needs an enema. :mad:
RobbyPants 05-24-07, 09:54 AM	The 100' for telepathy is a hold-over from some evil creatures who have it as a natural ability. Different ranges could work for feats or prc abilities... it's just usually done at 100'. Well, I don't think this feat needs to be at a 100' range, but I used that as a basis, because the sorcerer is supposed to have said evil creatures as ancestors. Possibly, but nobody else has a chance to figure out you're communicating by catching a handsign or two. You might even be able to establish a liason with someone you've 'never met' in this fashion... adding cloak and dagger elements to things. You have good point. PCs can silently communicate at 1st level like this, and all it takes is a small amount of setup... not that I think this feat should be available at 1st level! :P The more I'm reading things on here, the more I think this would be an appropriate feat for about 5th to 9th level (depending on how I choose to set up the prereqs). Edit: **** Retentive? With all the possible garbage one can type this gets censored? It's a psychological term for describing persons with a tendency towards compulsion and it was coined by Freud from his seven phases of child development... Society needs an enema. :mad: But the filters protect us! :P Thanks for all the input everyone! :D