Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tectorman 03-22-07, 04:18 PM	If you're a Monk with the Sun School tactical feat, then if you move next to an opponent via some form of instantaneous movement (I'm assuming that the feat isn't saying only dimension door or a Monk's abundant step class feature, by the way), you get to immediately attack them. The dimension door spell and the abundant step class feature both take a standard action to use. However, if a Monk somehow were able to quicken that (a la Quicken Power, using the Psionic Power Dimension Swap, or Quicken Spell-Like Ability using the abundant step), then how long does the action take? The teleporting, once a standard action, is now reduced to a free action. Is the attack likewise reduced, it being a part of that teleportation, or is the full roster of actions as follows: (free action): teleport, (standard action): attack, (move action): what have you?
tiluvias99 03-22-07, 04:28 PM	The extra attack takes no extra action. It is assumed to be part of the same action as whatever action it took to teleport you.
Tectorman 04-11-07, 10:38 AM	I don't usually do this, but :bump: for more responses (I've only heard one thought on the matter).
Nadaka 04-11-07, 11:27 AM	Well... using ToB:Bo9S you can use shadowhand teleportation as move with a level 5 maneuver or as a swift action with a level 7 maneuver. Your monk could get the level 5 maneuver at level 17 with only 1 level of swordsage and the level 7 maneuver at level 20 if you had 5 levels of swordsage, each additional level of swordsage reduces the 15/16 monk levels you need by 2. The basic tactic I suppose would be to teleport in as a move, get a free attack and then use a standard attack as well. With the swift action teleport it would be an awesome combo as you get a full attack + another attack while moving 50ft.
Jack Greylock 04-11-07, 11:44 AM	I call that broken. If it was my game I would rule that the Dimension Door (or simmiliar effect) and the attack are part of the same standard action. I think this is the intent of the feat, not to give a player a bunch of attacks after D Dooring but to allow them a single attack. I have personally used this feat in a tournament match to great effect. It was the pivot point of the match as it allowed my monk to abundent step out of a forcecage and grapple the wizard in one round. Very effective feat without trying to find a loop hole to power it up.
Nadaka 04-11-07, 12:02 PM	I call that broken. If it was my game I would rule that the Dimension Door (or simmiliar effect) and the attack are part of the same standard action. I think this is the intent of the feat, not to give a player a bunch of attacks after D Dooring but to allow them a single attack. I have personally used this feat in a tournament match to great effect. It was the pivot point of the match as it allowed my monk to abundent step out of a forcecage and grapple the wizard in one round. Very effective feat without trying to find a loop hole to power it up. Its not really broken. Due to the mechanics of the maneuvers, if you know both the move and swift teleport maneuvers you can do this a total of twice before you have to recover these maneuvers as full round actions. So you trade 2 free attacks, a standard attack and a full round attack for whatever you would have been doing for 4 rounds. And if those four rounds had 2 or more full attacks, then you actually might be loosing out on damage over time.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-11-07, 12:08 PM	It's also pretty tame compared to what 17th level abilities can and should be capable of doing.
Tectorman 04-11-07, 12:38 PM	I hate to interrupt this, but let's assume for a second that I neither own Tome of Battle nor do I intend to buy it. In fact, don't assume. No offense intended to ToB fanboys or fangirls, but I'm talking about strictly conventional fighting with mundane abilities, supernatural abilities, magic, and psionics. All of this "maneuvers" talk helps me not one bit.
Selgard 04-11-07, 01:13 PM	The simple answer is post #2 to the thread.
Nadaka 04-11-07, 01:21 PM	Bo9S Fanboyism admitted. Unfortunately abundant step is a superatural ability and not subject to the terms of the feat quicken spell like ability. Though a quickened dimension door would work. It might be possible to have such a magic or psionic item crafted. Though for the magic version it would require DM adjucation. As for a psionic item with that ability, I am not sufficiently well versed in psionics to give advice.
MerlintheTuna 04-11-07, 01:38 PM	No offense intended to ToB fanboys or fangirls, but I'm talking about strictly conventional fighting with mundane abilities, supernatural abilities, magic, and psionics. All of this "maneuvers" talk helps me not one bit.Now, I'll admit that I'm madly in love with Tome of Battle, but you're going to have to sell me on how magic and mind powers fall under the realm of "strictly conventional fighting," especially considering the fact that your question concerns teleportation. And for the record, the Shadow Hand maneuvers that allow you to teleport are supernatural.
solbergb 04-11-07, 02:00 PM	Here is how a normal party accomplishes multiple sun school attacks. Monk starts out touching travel domain cleric and wizard with dim door prepared. Cleric and monk are delaying. Wizard dim doors monk over. Monk attacks. monk full attacks. Travel domain cleric dim doors monk again, this time next to somebody the monk can grapple (as opposed to somebody whose full attack would hurt the wiz, cleric or monk) Monk attacks and grapples enemy. Hop If the monk was instead an enlightened fist with sufficient spell levels to quicken benign transposition the sequence could go like this: Wiz dim doors monk and cleric over. monk attacks Monk does quickened benign transposition with cleric and attacks. monk full attacks. cleric dim doors monk, monk gets another attack. Each instance of transporting gets the monk another attack, no matter what the cause. It's a free attack, not an AOO or anything else that counts against his normal actions. Given that he can do it during the "dim door/abundant step timeout" imposed after traveling, where normally actions are impossible, it must be a pure reflex of some kind.
Tectorman 04-12-07, 04:46 PM	Now, I'll admit that I'm madly in love with Tome of Battle, but you're going to have to sell me on how magic and mind powers fall under the realm of "strictly conventional fighting," especially considering the fact that your question concerns teleportation. And for the record, the Shadow Hand maneuvers that allow you to teleport are supernatural. Strictly conventional fighting: Noun, (in this context) describes combat based on mechanics established in the Core RAW and available on the SRD (including psionics). That may not have been the best phrasing of what I meant to say, I'll admit, so here, I'll rephrase: based on game mechanics established in the Core, available on the SRD, and expanded upon by supplemental books (expanded upon, not replaced by or overly made different), what would you rule the action as? How's that? To answer my own question, it seems that the primary opinion using the above non-ToB rules, maneuvers, abilities, etc., is that the Sun School feat makes the follow-up attack after a teleport-equivalent action occur within the same span of time (the same type of action) as the teleport itself. Normally, it is a standard action (both teleport and attack). Quickening the spell or power reduces the total time of both acts to a quickened (free) action, leaving a whole full round's worth of actions left available to the Monk in question. Do I have that about right?