Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Daisuke 06-13-07, 10:08 PM	I was reading through my copy of the phb II and I noticed the Telling Blow feat. However, looking at the benefit section of the entry I noticed it looked odd that the entry basically said that it allows a character to apply sneak attack to critical hits without apply the critical multiplier to the sneak attack damage. My question is that isn't this how sneak attack works anyway?
jaelis 06-13-07, 10:12 PM	Yes, they just didn't want anyone getting confused.
Mastel 06-13-07, 10:47 PM	It is a very bad feat. You got SA every time you score a critical, whatever the situation but only on people you can already sneak attack. I think it could be good for a Skirmish with improve critical.
wizarddog 06-13-07, 11:51 PM	It is a very bad feat. You got SA every time you score a critical, whatever the situation but only on people you can already sneak attack. I think it could be good for a Skirmish with improve critical. How is that a bad feat? You basically add SA damage on your critical. They don't have to be flat footed or flanked *even if they have uncanny dodge. Use a rapier or kruki and that's a crit threat of 17-20. Any creature immune to critical is immune to sneak attacks. May be you mean "bad" as in good. ;)
Cariyaga 06-14-07, 12:05 AM	Actually, Rapiers and Kukris have 18-20. Are there any other weapons that have a higher than that crit range?
Salla 06-14-07, 01:42 AM	Actually, Rapiers and Kukris have 18-20. Are there any other weapons that have a higher than that crit range? None I'm aware of without Keen or Improved Critical.
tarkin 06-14-07, 11:03 AM	I doubt any will be made. Making crit ranges beyond 18-20 (15%, 30% with Keen) is kind of silly. You quickly run into a situation where people either threaten to crit or miss entirely. Crits go from being a particularly well placed shot to the default. If a weapon was so accurate that it always got a particularly well placed shot, then it OBVIOUSLY should have some kind of benefit to make a NORMAL shot. I.E. If your weapon is so good that you routinely hit them right in the left eye, then why are you not also hitting their forehead more often than usual. In effect, a range of 18-20, being 15% is about as good as you can reasonable be expected to get without magic or a skill. With either magic or a skill, 30% is a huge percentage.
risner 06-14-07, 12:30 PM	Yes, they just didn't want anyone getting confused. If they didn't, you see a Character Optimization thread dedicated to 50d6 Sneak Attack by level 20.
Tectorman 06-14-07, 01:08 PM	Actually, Rapiers and Kukris have 18-20. Are there any other weapons that have a higher than that crit range? The stump knife (Sword and Fist, Arms and Equipment Guide) has a threat range of 19-20. If you manage to hit someone with it, then until the end of combat, the weapon's threat range against that person automatically doubles (by virtue of the weapon, no magic involved, and usable in an antimagic field).
Mastel 06-14-07, 04:19 PM	How is that a bad feat? You basically add SA damage on your critical. They don't have to be flat footed or flanked *even if they have uncanny dodge. Use a rapier or kruki and that's a crit threat of 17-20. Any creature immune to critical is immune to sneak attacks. May be you mean "bad" as in good. ;) Because they don't stack with regular SA. If you already SA because you flank or the monster is flat footed it gives you nothing more.
Ainamacar 06-14-07, 05:31 PM	I fail to see how that limitation makes it a uniformly poor feat. Reasons enemies aren't flat-footed right now: It is after the first round of combat. Someone beat you in initiative. You weighed a full-attack (or other action) to be of greater value than feinting last turn (or this one, with Improved Feint). Reasons you aren't flanking right now: You aren't even using a melee weapon. There is no ally with whom you can currently flank. Creature can't be flanked (but can still be sneak attacked: beholders). You were going to enter melee, but it just ate the cleric and you'd rather it ate the barbarian next. Killing something else you can't currently flank is more immediately important. Other situations: Enemy has uncanny dodge or something similar that lets it keep its dex bonus even while flat-footed. Killing an enemy that is not currently flat-footed is more immediately important. The enemy is flat-footed, but outside the 30 foot range of sneak attack. (Although I'm sure there could be some discussion about whether the feat allows you to add your sneak attack damage in this situation). If any of the above are true with some frequency, Telling Blow could be a useful feat for you with the proper choice of weapon.
Mastel 06-14-07, 08:20 PM	I fail to see how that limitation makes it a uniformly poor feat. Reasons enemies aren't flat-footed right now: It is after the first round of combat. Someone beat you in initiative. You weighed a full-attack (or other action) to be of greater value than feinting last turn (or this one, with Improved Feint). Reasons you aren't flanking right now: You aren't even using a melee weapon. There is no ally with whom you can currently flank. Creature can't be flanked (but can still be sneak attacked: beholders). You were going to enter melee, but it just ate the cleric and you'd rather it ate the barbarian next. Killing something else you can't currently flank is more immediately important. Other situations: Enemy has uncanny dodge or something similar that lets it keep its dex bonus even while flat-footed. Killing an enemy that is not currently flat-footed is more immediately important. The enemy is flat-footed, but outside the 30 foot range of sneak attack. (Although I'm sure there could be some discussion about whether the feat allows you to add your sneak attack damage in this situation). If any of the above are true with some frequency, Telling Blow could be a useful feat for you with the proper choice of weapon. You right, the feat could be useful in those situations only if you score a critical(not only a threat)... If you play a thief, the good way, those situations don't come frequently.
Optimator 06-14-07, 08:27 PM	I am a huge fan of using Telling Blow in conjuction with Crossbow Sniper and Improved Critical with an autoloading crossbow. My DM allows Improved Crit and Keen effects to stack, so it is pretty cool for a ranged rogue in my experience.
Mastel 06-14-07, 10:28 PM	I am a huge fan of using Telling Blow in conjuction with Crossbow Sniper and Improved Critical with an autoloading crossbow. My DM allows Improved Crit and Keen effects to stack, so it is pretty cool for a ranged rogue in my experience. If you put it that way, any feat can be good with houses rules...
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-15-07, 01:36 AM	It is a very bad feat. You got SA every time you score a critical, whatever the situation but only on people you can already sneak attack. It's a great feat. You do SA damage whenever you score a critical - the foe does not nessesarily need to be flanked or denied their dex bonus. I run a gestalt rog/warblade using two kukris, who will soon have Improved Critical. Just let me say "Muahahaha!". IOW: it's a feat for crit monkeys with sneak attack. Last game I ran into a melee all by myself. Well, actually it wasn't, but the DM was like "as you burst onto the scene, the BBEG takes down the last of the townsfolk (whom you were hoping would have given you flanking)". B*stard. But I scored two criticals out of four attacks (2 attacks + Improved TWF) in the first round and did 50 points of damage. So the DM is like "a horde of other priates burst out of the woodwork and mob you". Mongrel. But it was all ok in the end - the rest of the party arrived after a couple of rounds. I run a warblade with Sudden Leap and a *lot* of jump and tumble, so getting out of these situations is easier than you might think. My question is: can you use ambush feats with sneak attacks so generated?
Optimator 06-15-07, 01:39 AM	If you put it that way, any feat can be good with houses rules... Well, it's been good so far, and my crossbow-using rogue doesn't have a Keen effect of his weapon yet. I should've said that, I suppose.
Hsien 06-15-07, 10:04 AM	I love this feat for my Master Thrower ( daggers ). I'm also the default back of the party guard, so the few times I couldn't 5-ft step to throw safely and did not have flank, the Telling Blow made the difference several times in the melee. Although not a feat for every character obviously, I think it fits a ranged Rogue very well, allowing them full attacks with a possibility to add the extra damage dice.
Crash01234567890 06-15-07, 11:38 AM	It's also very useful for small parties when there arn't a lot of people to flank. Playing in a three person group with a ranged bard, a ranged cleric and me as a fighter/rogue, it makes all the difference in the world. With a Falchion that means 15% of the time I get the extra damage.
tui 06-15-07, 12:47 PM	You were going to enter melee, but it just ate the cleric and you'd rather it ate the barbarian next. Hee Hee! :) I'd say you're right; Telling Blow can be a good feat if you've got the right build, party composition, and enemies. Which is about all you can say for any feat.
Mastel 06-15-07, 04:09 PM	My question is: can you use ambush feats with sneak attacks so generated? I would allow it.
Hsien 06-15-07, 04:58 PM	Per Sage advise on Dragon I got this month ( Demogorgon on cover ). You cannot apply an Ambush feat with Telling Blow. Ambush feats, iirc, are where you lose Sneak damage dice to apply different penalties, such as ability scores or movement etc... This is declared before you roll and is part of the preciion attack, kind of like making a 2nd Ed called shot, but without to hit penalties. Telling Blow is adds the same extra damage on confirmed criticals, as a game function, but is not the same as making a sneak/ambush attack.
Cariyaga 06-15-07, 05:00 PM	V_V Rules Lawyer.
Vaelan 06-15-07, 07:17 PM	This is declared before you roll and is part of the preciion attack, kind of like making a 2nd Ed called shot, but without to hit penalties. One would imagine that the decision to strike a particularly vital spot is also something that is intended before the actual attack. Telling Blow changes that. Telling Blow is adds the same extra damage on confirmed criticals, as a game function, but is not the same as making a sneak/ambush attack. It uses substantially different wording than Razing Strike. Razing Strike makes it quite clear that this is the case.
Droma 06-15-07, 07:48 PM	Because they don't stack with regular SA. If you already SA because you flank or the monster is flat footed it gives you nothing more. Im wondering where your getting that ruling from. If you land the hit while flanking you get SA damage. If you crit while flanking and have telling blow you get your regular SA damage from flanking PLUS additional SA dice from the crit damage. At least thats how my group has been playing it and they are all rules lawyers. Can I get a third party opinion on who is correct?
Merestil Haye 06-15-07, 08:01 PM	From the FAQ :When a rogue with the Telling Blow feat (PHB II, pg. 83) deals a critical hit against a flat-footed enemy, does she add her sneak attack damage twice? No. The feat simply adds another criteria that “activates” your sneak attack or skirmish damage; it doesn’t allow either of those values to be added twice.
Droma 06-15-07, 08:09 PM	Thanks Merestil. Although I dont think I'll be informing my DM of this.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 06-15-07, 08:16 PM	Thanks Merestil. Although I dont think I'll be informing my DM of this. Just remember, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Cariyaga 06-15-07, 08:21 PM	That's when he'll tell the DM. <_<
The_Unseen_Illusion 06-15-07, 09:06 PM	The way it is written in the PHB2, it is clearly worded that you can add another set of SA damage... so I disagree with the FAQ!
cwslyclgh 06-15-07, 09:19 PM	I see no place where it say directly that you can add another set of SA damage, so obviously "clearly worded" is a ralative matter. The feat itself never mentions at all what happens when you crit on an opponent that is already SAable.
Mastel 06-15-07, 11:21 PM	The way it is written in the PHB2, it is clearly worded that you can add another set of SA damage... so I disagree with the FAQ! PHII p.83:Your critical multiplier applies only to your normal damage, not your skirmish or sneak attack damage. If it's not clear for you, may be you should read it again.
The_Unseen_Illusion 06-16-07, 06:48 PM	Yeah, but what cwslyclgh said, it does not mention whether you add your SA to an attacked thats already SA'ed. And Mastel, I know you don't add another SA from crtis, but you would add another set from the feat itself, since it does not set conditions to add another set of SA, other than scoring a crit.
Mastel 06-16-07, 07:19 PM	Yeah, but what cwslyclgh said, it does not mention whether you add your SA to an attacked thats already SA'ed. And Mastel, I know you don't add another SA from crtis, but you would add another set from the feat itself, since it does not set conditions to add another set of SA, other than scoring a crit If i follow your logic, if i'm invisible & i hit a flat footed monster i got 2 set of SA since i got 2 conditions that trigger it. It does matter how many condition trigger the SA you count it only once. As i said, don't change the base rules of the PHB. Just had the new rules by following PHB logic.