Telling Blow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Telling Blow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
royinator
07-25-07, 06:15 PM can someone explain the feat "telling blow" - i may have gotten the name wrong, but it says you can add sneak attack dice after the critical multiplier is applied.
Salla
07-25-07, 06:18 PM can someone explain the feat "telling blow" - i may have gotten the name wrong, but it says you can add sneak attack dice after the critical multiplier is applied.

Telling Blow gives you an additional circumstance under which you can deal sneak attack. The two standard methods are via flanking, or the target being denied his DEX bonus to AC. This adds 'dealing a critical hit' to the list. Note that it does not let you deal sneak attack damage twice if you deal a critical hit against a target who you are flanking, or who is denied his DEX bonus to AC.
Howland Reed
07-25-07, 06:20 PM The best explanation I read basically states, the feat adds "when you make a critical hit" to the list of situations that allow you to add sneak attack damage (along with "when you flank your opponent" and "when your target loses their dex bonus to AC").

As I understand it, whenever you critical hit an opponent you can add your sneak attack damage. If you're making an attack that was already a sneak attack, it has no effect.
rkun
07-25-07, 06:43 PM where is this feat located, i havent heard of it and i would like to look into. i think it sounds cool and makes alot of sense from what "sneak attack" says: striking a vital spot.

thank you
Hsien
07-25-07, 06:55 PM PH2

I believe that it triggers any Precison damage a character may have, which includes skirmish/sudden...not just sneak.
FrotzMe
07-25-07, 06:58 PM where is this feat located

Players Handbook II, pg 83. One of the other nice things about it is that it gives you a way to apply Sneak Attack from distances greater than 30'.

Combine this feat with a weapon that has a wide critical threat, throw in Improved Critical or Keen, and you're doing some real damage.

And yes - sorta - it works with either Sneak Attack or Skirmish.
BrutishCelt
07-25-07, 09:48 PM My Swashbuckler/Rogue utilizes both this feat and [Daring Outlaw] from Complete Scoundrel, p76. His keen rapier ends a lot of fights before they ever get going. Once I get ahold of [Improved Critical]. . .

[side note: my campaign homebrews that when you use improved crit. with a keen weapon, the threat range doesn't expand, but the crit. multiplier increases by one]
The Phantom Flan Flinger
07-26-07, 02:53 AM Sorry for the hi-jack but I didn't want to start another thread about such a similar subject.

Does this mean that if you have this feat and you score a critical hit, your attack retrospectively becomes a Sneak Attack?

For instance, say you had a deadly precision weapon (which deals an extra 2d6 damage on "a successful sneak attack"), would you be able to add this damage whenever your Telling Blow feat kicked in on a successful critical?
runestar
07-26-07, 07:53 AM Players Handbook II, pg 83. One of the other nice things about it is that it gives you a way to apply Sneak Attack from distances greater than 30'.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that this condition was retained. (ie: your rogue can deal sneak attack on a ranged attack with a crit, but he still must be within the stipulated distance).
Mr_Teapot
07-26-07, 09:25 AM Sorry for the hi-jack but I didn't want to start another thread about such a similar subject.

Does this mean that if you have this feat and you score a critical hit, your attack retrospectively becomes a Sneak Attack?

For instance, say you had a deadly precision weapon (which deals an extra 2d6 damage on "a successful sneak attack"), would you be able to add this damage whenever your Telling Blow feat kicked in on a successful critical?

Yeah, that's exactly what the feat does. When you're in a normal, no-flanking, no-denying-Dex attack situation and score a critical hit, you do sneak attack damage.

And that's not realy highjacking the thread: you're asking the same question as the OP.
The Phantom Flan Flinger
07-26-07, 12:42 PM You'd think so, but apparently there is a subtle but vital difference between "doing a Sneak Attack" and "dealing Sneak Attack damage" which is what I wanted to clarify.

I got myself confused the other day over why you can't add your SA damage to a crit where the monster has concealment - I understand why you can't do a Sneak Attack, but I didn't think using Telling Blow was making a Sneak Attack, I thought it was extra damage to be added to a crit* - and I guess I'm still confused now albeit on a slightly different issue, because this one seems to be the other way around.

The feat rocks and I'm having a lot of fun with the character because of it... but I keep getting into situations where I assume it will work only to be told by my more rules-savvy friends that it does not. I think I just have a mental blind spot here.

I'd hate to get my hands on a deadly precision weapon only to find that I can only add it to SA damage where I have flanked or flat-footed my foe and not to SA damage where I have critted because I haven't technically made a "successful Sneak Attack" but only added SA damage to a normal attack thanks to a feat.

*The reasoning behind this one turned on a slightly different point, and so I never got a real answer to the "is it an SA or is it a normal attack with SA damage added?" question.
Hsien
07-26-07, 01:22 PM Best advise is to check with your DM on how they interpret "deadly precision."

They may rule that is also triggered with Telling Blow, or they may indicate that since it is a weapon property that specifies it is "triggered by a successful sneak attack" that Telling Blow does not apply since Telling Blow is in fact, NOT a successful sneak attack.
It is simply another means to trigger Precision damage.
( which is a valid rationale imo, and I'm a huge fan of TB, but I'm going by what you indicate the property description is )

Does "deadly precision" trigger with Skirmish attacks? If not, then it likely does not trigger with Telling Blow either.

Now if it indicated it added damage on an attack that adds Precision damage, you'd be fine...crosses fingers and will look up to possibly add to wish list.
The Phantom Flan Flinger
07-26-07, 02:14 PM Well I'm now at home with both books in front of me.

TB says "when you score a critical hit... you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage".

The deadly precision special ability that you can add to weapons (CA p127) says "...when its wielder makes a successful sneak attack".

So if TB doesn't equal SA, then that's dead in the water.

Bah!
FrotzMe
07-26-07, 05:03 PM Are you sure?

Not at all. :)

This all goes back to WotC never really defining precision damage. I'd go either way on this, actually, depending on the consensus of the group, as I don't believe there is a strong argument on either side.
Hsien
07-26-07, 05:41 PM Not at all. :)

This all goes back to WotC never really defining precision damage. I'd go either way on this, actually, depending on the consensus of the group, as I don't believe there is a strong argument on either side.

I agree with Frotzme. Wheteher or not there is a range restriction on Telling Blow triggering damage has been debated with no clear determination.

My group houseruled that it was 30' or the range increment of the weapon...whichever was greater.
Rationale was that 30' is standard for sneak/skirmish, but since there is no attack penalty until you exceed the first increment, then longer range weapons should not be discriminated against. i.e problem we saw with just using 30' was Dagger range increment is 10', so throwing that at 30' gives -4 to hit but can do precision damage, whereas a bow/arrow at 40' has no attack penalty but can't???

For our Telling Blow use, 30' or Range Increment has worked out alright, for my Master Thrower and our Scout's skirmishing at extended range w/o breaking the game.
royinator
07-26-07, 05:46 PM My Swashbuckler/Rogue utilizes both this feat and [Daring Outlaw] from Complete Scoundrel, p76. His keen rapier ends a lot of fights before they ever get going. Once I get ahold of [Improved Critical]. . .

[side note: my campaign homebrews that when you use improved crit. with a keen weapon, the threat range doesn't expand, but the crit. multiplier increases by one]

what does daring outlaw do?
Salla
07-26-07, 06:09 PM what does daring outlaw do?

Stacks some Swashbuckler and Rogue class features (exact details omitted for sake of the CoC).
Rolof
07-27-07, 03:53 AM As a previous poster stated, telling blow and sneak attack is a bit ambiguous,
but I thought that sudden strike also qualified.

FrotzMe:

"And yes - sorta - it works with either Sneak Attack or Skirmish."

Heroes of Battle, dread commando page sudden strike sidebar:

"For the purpose of qualifying for feats"..."and similar options"..."treat sudden
strike as the equivalent of sneak attack."

*NOTE: the above was paraphrased a bit to avoid violation of terms, but I
tried to maintain the original intent.

*Scratches head* So...does that mean a dread commando can take telling
blow, or use a deadly precision weapon? I think I saw somebody ask a similar
question before about ninjas, and the general concensus was that it was ok.
BrutishCelt
07-27-07, 04:59 AM what does daring outlaw do?

I don't think this'll violate anything: The feat stacks rogue and swahbuckler levels for sneak attack dice [and a couple swashbuckler features]. If you dig that concept, I'd say pick up Complete Scoundrel ASAP and behold the glorious naughtiness [my Swashrogue has about a dozen hidden blades concealed about his person thanks to the equipment section of the book].:duel:
FrotzMe
07-27-07, 03:28 PM *Scratches head* So...does that mean a dread commando can take telling blow, or use a deadly precision weapon? I think I saw somebody ask a similar question before about ninjas, and the general concensus was that it was ok.

It would have been helpful if the Telling Blow feat was worded 'sneak attack, skirmish, or similar precision damage'. Unfortunately, the author used the much less ambiguous wording "you deal your sneak attack or skirmish damage". Note that Players Handbook II came out after Complete Adventurer, so it's not like the author of Telling Blow was unaware of abilities like the ninja's Sudden Strike ability; heck, the author included Skirmish damage from the Scout class, which made its debut in Complete Adventurer, right next to Ninja.

From a fairness perspective, it would seem OK to allow other similar damage to apply. As the feat is worded, however, it seems that the author's intent was to limit the feat's application (or it was just an egregious oversight...).
Hsien
07-27-07, 04:49 PM A far as Sudden Strike goes, my group determined that since all the ways to trigger "Sudden" damage are also triggered in "Sneak" damage, that the deadly precision weapon property would work.

imo, Telling Blow would not trigger a weapons "deadly precison" property since the methods to trigger a "sneak attack" are not met, which as I understand the weapon property description is the requirement...just like deadly precision would not trigger on a successful skirmish ( unless it also met sneak requirements? )

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
royinator 07-25-07, 06:15 PM	can someone explain the feat "telling blow" - i may have gotten the name wrong, but it says you can add sneak attack dice after the critical multiplier is applied.
Salla 07-25-07, 06:18 PM	can someone explain the feat "telling blow" - i may have gotten the name wrong, but it says you can add sneak attack dice after the critical multiplier is applied. Telling Blow gives you an additional circumstance under which you can deal sneak attack. The two standard methods are via flanking, or the target being denied his DEX bonus to AC. This adds 'dealing a critical hit' to the list. Note that it does not let you deal sneak attack damage twice if you deal a critical hit against a target who you are flanking, or who is denied his DEX bonus to AC.
Howland Reed 07-25-07, 06:20 PM	The best explanation I read basically states, the feat adds "when you make a critical hit" to the list of situations that allow you to add sneak attack damage (along with "when you flank your opponent" and "when your target loses their dex bonus to AC"). As I understand it, whenever you critical hit an opponent you can add your sneak attack damage. If you're making an attack that was already a sneak attack, it has no effect.
rkun 07-25-07, 06:43 PM	where is this feat located, i havent heard of it and i would like to look into. i think it sounds cool and makes alot of sense from what "sneak attack" says: striking a vital spot. thank you
Hsien 07-25-07, 06:55 PM	PH2 I believe that it triggers any Precison damage a character may have, which includes skirmish/sudden...not just sneak.
FrotzMe 07-25-07, 06:58 PM	where is this feat located Players Handbook II, pg 83. One of the other nice things about it is that it gives you a way to apply Sneak Attack from distances greater than 30'. Combine this feat with a weapon that has a wide critical threat, throw in Improved Critical or Keen, and you're doing some real damage. And yes - sorta - it works with either Sneak Attack or Skirmish.
BrutishCelt 07-25-07, 09:48 PM	My Swashbuckler/Rogue utilizes both this feat and [Daring Outlaw] from Complete Scoundrel, p76. His keen rapier ends a lot of fights before they ever get going. Once I get ahold of [Improved Critical]. . . [side note: my campaign homebrews that when you use improved crit. with a keen weapon, the threat range doesn't expand, but the crit. multiplier increases by one]
The Phantom Flan Flinger 07-26-07, 02:53 AM	Sorry for the hi-jack but I didn't want to start another thread about such a similar subject. Does this mean that if you have this feat and you score a critical hit, your attack retrospectively becomes a Sneak Attack? For instance, say you had a deadly precision weapon (which deals an extra 2d6 damage on "a successful sneak attack"), would you be able to add this damage whenever your Telling Blow feat kicked in on a successful critical?
runestar 07-26-07, 07:53 AM	Players Handbook II, pg 83. One of the other nice things about it is that it gives you a way to apply Sneak Attack from distances greater than 30'. Are you sure? I was under the impression that this condition was retained. (ie: your rogue can deal sneak attack on a ranged attack with a crit, but he still must be within the stipulated distance).
Mr_Teapot 07-26-07, 09:25 AM	Sorry for the hi-jack but I didn't want to start another thread about such a similar subject. Does this mean that if you have this feat and you score a critical hit, your attack retrospectively becomes a Sneak Attack? For instance, say you had a deadly precision weapon (which deals an extra 2d6 damage on "a successful sneak attack"), would you be able to add this damage whenever your Telling Blow feat kicked in on a successful critical? Yeah, that's exactly what the feat does. When you're in a normal, no-flanking, no-denying-Dex attack situation and score a critical hit, you do sneak attack damage. And that's not realy highjacking the thread: you're asking the same question as the OP.
The Phantom Flan Flinger 07-26-07, 12:42 PM	You'd think so, but apparently there is a subtle but vital difference between "doing a Sneak Attack" and "dealing Sneak Attack damage" which is what I wanted to clarify. I got myself confused the other day over why you can't add your SA damage to a crit where the monster has concealment - I understand why you can't do a Sneak Attack, but I didn't think using Telling Blow was making a Sneak Attack, I thought it was extra damage to be added to a crit* - and I guess I'm still confused now albeit on a slightly different issue, because this one seems to be the other way around. The feat rocks and I'm having a lot of fun with the character because of it... but I keep getting into situations where I assume it will work only to be told by my more rules-savvy friends that it does not. I think I just have a mental blind spot here. I'd hate to get my hands on a deadly precision weapon only to find that I can only add it to SA damage where I have flanked or flat-footed my foe and not to SA damage where I have critted because I haven't technically made a "successful Sneak Attack" but only added SA damage to a normal attack thanks to a feat. *The reasoning behind this one turned on a slightly different point, and so I never got a real answer to the "is it an SA or is it a normal attack with SA damage added?" question.
Hsien 07-26-07, 01:22 PM	Best advise is to check with your DM on how they interpret "deadly precision." They may rule that is also triggered with Telling Blow, or they may indicate that since it is a weapon property that specifies it is "triggered by a successful sneak attack" that Telling Blow does not apply since Telling Blow is in fact, NOT a successful sneak attack. It is simply another means to trigger Precision damage. ( which is a valid rationale imo, and I'm a huge fan of TB, but I'm going by what you indicate the property description is ) Does "deadly precision" trigger with Skirmish attacks? If not, then it likely does not trigger with Telling Blow either. Now if it indicated it added damage on an attack that adds Precision damage, you'd be fine...crosses fingers and will look up to possibly add to wish list.
The Phantom Flan Flinger 07-26-07, 02:14 PM	Well I'm now at home with both books in front of me. TB says "when you score a critical hit... you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage". The deadly precision special ability that you can add to weapons (CA p127) says "...when its wielder makes a successful sneak attack". So if TB doesn't equal SA, then that's dead in the water. Bah!
FrotzMe 07-26-07, 05:03 PM	Are you sure? Not at all. :) This all goes back to WotC never really defining precision damage. I'd go either way on this, actually, depending on the consensus of the group, as I don't believe there is a strong argument on either side.
Hsien 07-26-07, 05:41 PM	Not at all. :) This all goes back to WotC never really defining precision damage. I'd go either way on this, actually, depending on the consensus of the group, as I don't believe there is a strong argument on either side. I agree with Frotzme. Wheteher or not there is a range restriction on Telling Blow triggering damage has been debated with no clear determination. My group houseruled that it was 30' or the range increment of the weapon...whichever was greater. Rationale was that 30' is standard for sneak/skirmish, but since there is no attack penalty until you exceed the first increment, then longer range weapons should not be discriminated against. i.e problem we saw with just using 30' was Dagger range increment is 10', so throwing that at 30' gives -4 to hit but can do precision damage, whereas a bow/arrow at 40' has no attack penalty but can't??? For our Telling Blow use, 30' or Range Increment has worked out alright, for my Master Thrower and our Scout's skirmishing at extended range w/o breaking the game.
royinator 07-26-07, 05:46 PM	My Swashbuckler/Rogue utilizes both this feat and [Daring Outlaw] from Complete Scoundrel, p76. His keen rapier ends a lot of fights before they ever get going. Once I get ahold of [Improved Critical]. . . [side note: my campaign homebrews that when you use improved crit. with a keen weapon, the threat range doesn't expand, but the crit. multiplier increases by one] what does daring outlaw do?
Salla 07-26-07, 06:09 PM	what does daring outlaw do? Stacks some Swashbuckler and Rogue class features (exact details omitted for sake of the CoC).
Rolof 07-27-07, 03:53 AM	As a previous poster stated, telling blow and sneak attack is a bit ambiguous, but I thought that sudden strike also qualified. FrotzMe: "And yes - sorta - it works with either Sneak Attack or Skirmish." Heroes of Battle, dread commando page sudden strike sidebar: "For the purpose of qualifying for feats"..."and similar options"..."treat sudden strike as the equivalent of sneak attack." NOTE: the above was paraphrased a bit to avoid violation of terms, but I tried to maintain the original intent. Scratches head* So...does that mean a dread commando can take telling blow, or use a deadly precision weapon? I think I saw somebody ask a similar question before about ninjas, and the general concensus was that it was ok.
BrutishCelt 07-27-07, 04:59 AM	what does daring outlaw do? I don't think this'll violate anything: The feat stacks rogue and swahbuckler levels for sneak attack dice [and a couple swashbuckler features]. If you dig that concept, I'd say pick up Complete Scoundrel ASAP and behold the glorious naughtiness [my Swashrogue has about a dozen hidden blades concealed about his person thanks to the equipment section of the book].:duel:
FrotzMe 07-27-07, 03:28 PM	Scratches head So...does that mean a dread commando can take telling blow, or use a deadly precision weapon? I think I saw somebody ask a similar question before about ninjas, and the general concensus was that it was ok. It would have been helpful if the Telling Blow feat was worded 'sneak attack, skirmish, or similar precision damage'. Unfortunately, the author used the much less ambiguous wording "you deal your sneak attack or skirmish damage". Note that Players Handbook II came out after Complete Adventurer, so it's not like the author of Telling Blow was unaware of abilities like the ninja's Sudden Strike ability; heck, the author included Skirmish damage from the Scout class, which made its debut in Complete Adventurer, right next to Ninja. From a fairness perspective, it would seem OK to allow other similar damage to apply. As the feat is worded, however, it seems that the author's intent was to limit the feat's application (or it was just an egregious oversight...).
Hsien 07-27-07, 04:49 PM	A far as Sudden Strike goes, my group determined that since all the ways to trigger "Sudden" damage are also triggered in "Sneak" damage, that the deadly precision weapon property would work. imo, Telling Blow would not trigger a weapons "deadly precison" property since the methods to trigger a "sneak attack" are not met, which as I understand the weapon property description is the requirement...just like deadly precision would not trigger on a successful skirmish ( unless it also met sneak requirements? )