The Grappling Octopus [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Grappling Octopus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Capt. Pixel
06-25-07, 02:12 PM The Giant Octopus has 8 tentacle attcks, Improved Grab and the ability to constrict after a successful grapple.

My question is:

How many times can a Giant Octopus constrict in one round?

Fast and Loose:
Eight attacks - one grapple attempt for each successful attack - one constrict for each successful grapple.

More Restrictive:
Eight attacks - one grapple attempt for each successful attack but only one successful grapple allowed per round - one constrict for the first successful grapple and no further attacks that round.

Fast and Loose makes the Giant Octopus very destructive. Probably moreso than can be justified by a CR8.

This situation has been cause for concern in our game because the Druid is now wildshaping into an octopus on a regular basis and outperforming his party allies by leaps and bounds in melee encounters.

Please help us interpret the RAW and determine the appropriate method for attacking with this unusual creature.

Thanks, in advance for your help. :cool:
tarkin
06-25-07, 03:49 PM Techincally, it is a Giant Octopus.

You really want to screw with someone, give the Giant Octopus one level of Rogue.

8 attacks, +1d6 of Sneak attack to each one, if it is hidden.

What was that other power they had? Ink Cloud, right - That gives them Total Concealment.
TheCobra
06-25-07, 05:29 PM Ah yes. Grappling, the ultimate house rule.

D&D rules on grappling and natural weapons aren't at all clear.

By the FAQ, it's the latter option, more or less. The octopus could take the -20 penalty to grapple more than one creature in a round.
Pentar
06-25-07, 05:43 PM I didn't even realize Octopi were amphibious... but apparently they are!

Uhm, as TheCobra mentioned, I believe there is a penalty to grappling multiple opponents in a single round, somewhere in the vicinity of -10 to each grapple attempt beyond the first. I don't know where it's stated (FAQ?) or in one of the entries about Dragons (for some reason, I recall this discussion coming up about dragons doing multiple grapples in a round).

Anyway, by RAW, since each "Grapple Attack" is considered an attack, and since it has 8 tentacles and 8 attacks per round, it seems logical that each attack with each of its tentacles constitutes 1 grapple check, therefore, 1 constrict attack per round, per tentacle.

The Octopus could not, however, make 8 constrict attacks against ONE opponent it has grappled in one tentacle... it would need to make a separate grapple attempt with each tentacle on that same creature in a Full-attack action to do that.
tarkin
06-25-07, 06:02 PM The Octopus is not amphibious, but that is irrelevant to the discussion.

Do you have something agaisnt undersea campaigns?

Do you not believe in the right to cast AirBreathing spell, despite the existence of a WaterBreathing?
Pentar
06-25-07, 06:05 PM The Octopus is not amphibious, but that is irrelevant to the discussion.

Do you have something agaisnt undersea campaigns?

Do you not believe in the right to cast AirBreathing spell, despite the existence of a WaterBreathing?

Well, the only reason I say the Octopus is amphibious is because it has a land movement value (20'). This indicates to me that it is capable of moving on land (and at a surprisingly fast rate).

Now, I don't know if that means it can breath on land, true enough... it does have the Aquatic sub-type, which would indicate "No"...
SALDAR
06-25-07, 07:06 PM It would be the latter. Once you make a successful grapple check against an opponent you are considered to be grappling. While grappling there is an Attack Your Opponent option but you cannot use multiple weapons with it, not even natural weapons, so an octopus would not be able to use its other seven tentacles to attack or make grapple checks against its opponent. So it would only be able to make a single grapple check against that grappled opponent each round using the one tentacle, getting the tentacle and constrict damage if it wins, and would not be able to use its other tentacles against that opponent. If it wants to use its other tentacles against other opponents it would take a -20 on the grapple checks with the already grappled opponent. If it does not take the -20 option then all it can do is make that single grapple check.

I believe the Rules of the Game article introduced an option to let creatures using natural weapons to make a number of grapple checks per round based on their BAB just like characters do. This is what my group does since the grappling rules are pretty much based on the number of attacks granted by BAB. A druid would have a maximum of 3 checks at 15th level and up.

Octopi are aquatic but not amphibious so they would need to start making Constitution checks after ConX2 rounds to keep from suffocating, although, as tarkin pointed out, there are spells to help.
tyrecian
06-25-07, 07:40 PM ahh yes, hello. As pentar stated this was hashed out in a post, where ironically i was the author and it did involve dragons.

What we decided was that the multiple grapples against one target could only be done (meaning more damage than one grapple check) if the octopus had more than one itenerant (sp) attack. In other words if its base attack was +7, then it would be able to get a second grapple at +2.

The other 7 arms would be in this case to help with the grapple, and so (i think) that if the beast was to grapple and use itenerative attacks it would not be able to use its other 7 natural attacks. Apparently one can either go one way or the other...

Now i dunno about the -20 on successive attacks, never seen the rule. But i would say that the octopus could successfully grapple 8 people and attack each with one grapple check a round, just not use the 8 arms against one since a creature can only be grappled once (whether you are grappled by one tentacle or 14,785 you are still "grappled" and take natural damage). The negative 20 rule i know of is this: If you are grappling you dont threaten areas, but if you take a -20 on your grapple check and succeed you count as threatenning the space around you. Very helpful if you have a very high grapple (like a druid in bear (say 30 grapple) grappling a drow wizard (say around 5)) and your opponent doesnt, cause then you can also whack others that think they can move freely around you, that is only -20 rule i know.

Ever played with an octopus? They are fun and squishy, and they wrap you up and sucker you... its kinda interesting sensation. I would say that if you want to throw the player a boon, allow him maybe a +4 circumstance bonus to his grapple for using all 8 arms against one opponent (not damage, mind) that way he can choose to attack multiple creatures, or just one really well. In that case the PC could use his itenaerative (sp) attacks and have the +4 for each.

also i would like to know if the octopus grappling a fiend would make the fiend have to take drowning checks quicker than its consitution since its in melee and being screwed with.

had a giant octo almost TPK us because our GM made us immediately start making saves (at -1 cumulative per drowning rules after each round) It sucked really bad cause drowning aint no joke.

Druid shapeshifting into an octo is fun and all, but there is no freshwater derivative, so bear in mind that it can only happen in brackish water (maybe estuaries close to river mouths) and open sea, gulf or ocean. That is fairly restrictive.

We had a sea elf we used a cart and several barrells full of brackish water to tote him around on land, but he was relatively small, a Giant Octopus would be testy at the best of circumstances... :)

yes el ocopus grande is a great fiend for wildshape, but it also cuts out the ability to use spells in most cases, while the earlier poster spoke of air bubble, the octo would be needing serious concentration checks since it would be casting into the air it couldnt breathe, that would be DM call, i think. Also a casting octopus would need at least 2 of its 8 tentacles open for somatics, so make sure you dont grapple too many, hehe.
dirkformica
06-25-07, 08:01 PM Just quickly looking at the base grappling rules on page 156 of the PHB, I'm wondering if there might be a wrinkle to exploit. You don't have to move on to step 4 of the grapple where you maintain a hold. If you get to step 3: Hold, you make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. Constrict only requires a successful grapple check to inflict damage. I don't see where it requires you to maintain the hold. So couldn't you just Attack, trigger Improved Grab, Win Grapple Check, Constrict, then let go as a free action instead of maintaining a hold, and then resume with your next attacks?

(Please note: I have NOT read the Rules of the Game or other supplemental materials on grappling before posting this. I have only reviewed the core books.)
Elemmakil
06-25-07, 08:07 PM In a grapple, you have 2 basic options:
From the Glossary:
A creature with this extraordinary special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability, it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.
Attack an opponent:
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. The big thing to note here is that this is not a grapple check, so constrict doesn't apply! Generally, the octopus could only get in one of these attacks. Obviously, this option is less than wonderful: only one attack and no constrict. (Taking -20 on the grapple check doesn't give it extra attacks against the grappled opponent, but it can use them outside of a grapple.)
Damage an opponent:
While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.The most important note here is that this is not a natural weapon! The rules for natural weapons do not apply. The octopus cannot attack with all 8 tentacles, but it can get two grapple checks to deal damage, at +15/+10, because it has +6 BAB (the key line here is "in place of an attack." Having natural weapons doesn't prevent it from using a full +6/+1 BAB routine, but using these weapons does because that invokes "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons").

Creatures with lots of natural weapons actually get gimped a bit by the grapple rules, although constrict can make up for that.

Just for reference:
Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.
etc...

If a creature with this special attack (extraordinary) hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent's weight.

Hope that helps, and sorry for the length.

-Elemmakil

[Edit: responding to Dirkformica]I'm not sure that the 4 steps are optional: when you initiate a grapple, you might have to follow through with them all. I'm not sure, and I could see a DM ruling it either way. I'd say that you have to go through all 4 steps, except that you could intentionally fail the grapple check in step 3, which would be pointless. Once you do enter a grapple, you don't have any special way to end the grapple: one grapple must either incapacitate the other or try to escape, which is done "in the place of an attack."
spikevampire
06-25-07, 08:25 PM i think that octopus taking -20 have 8 possibilities to grapple with a successful attack. rule says that it don't use big effort using -20 because it use only the limb or the part that he used for attack to mantain in grapple his enemy, so it could use all its 8 tentacles. Only my italian opinion i hope it will be clear
Pentar
06-25-07, 08:30 PM Elemmakil,

Ahhh! Interesting... Going over those rules, it does make sense... but it does seem to unfairly gimp creatures with natural weapons in a grapple. It almost doesn't make sense because technically, they can never make an "unarmed strike", since they're already considered armed with natural weapons!
Stormonu
06-25-07, 09:52 PM Not an official ruling of any sort, but I'd have the octopus make up to 8 touch attacks. One tentacle on gives it a normal grapple check, each additional tentacle that hits gives it a +2 circumstance bonus to the grapple check (so if it hit with all eight, it'd make its grapple check with a +14 bonus on top of its normal bonus).

Ouch.

Of course, that also gets into, "Well what if my monk wants to use both arms?"

*Shrug* either let them do it (which will wash out the bonus when the enemy uses both limbs as well) or only allow an extra grapple check per usuable limb past two...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Capt. Pixel 06-25-07, 02:12 PM	The Giant Octopus has 8 tentacle attcks, Improved Grab and the ability to constrict after a successful grapple. My question is: How many times can a Giant Octopus constrict in one round? Fast and Loose: Eight attacks - one grapple attempt for each successful attack - one constrict for each successful grapple. More Restrictive: Eight attacks - one grapple attempt for each successful attack but only one successful grapple allowed per round - one constrict for the first successful grapple and no further attacks that round. Fast and Loose makes the Giant Octopus very destructive. Probably moreso than can be justified by a CR8. This situation has been cause for concern in our game because the Druid is now wildshaping into an octopus on a regular basis and outperforming his party allies by leaps and bounds in melee encounters. Please help us interpret the RAW and determine the appropriate method for attacking with this unusual creature. Thanks, in advance for your help. :cool:
tarkin 06-25-07, 03:49 PM	Techincally, it is a Giant Octopus. You really want to screw with someone, give the Giant Octopus one level of Rogue. 8 attacks, +1d6 of Sneak attack to each one, if it is hidden. What was that other power they had? Ink Cloud, right - That gives them Total Concealment.
TheCobra 06-25-07, 05:29 PM	Ah yes. Grappling, the ultimate house rule. D&D rules on grappling and natural weapons aren't at all clear. By the FAQ, it's the latter option, more or less. The octopus could take the -20 penalty to grapple more than one creature in a round.
Pentar 06-25-07, 05:43 PM	I didn't even realize Octopi were amphibious... but apparently they are! Uhm, as TheCobra mentioned, I believe there is a penalty to grappling multiple opponents in a single round, somewhere in the vicinity of -10 to each grapple attempt beyond the first. I don't know where it's stated (FAQ?) or in one of the entries about Dragons (for some reason, I recall this discussion coming up about dragons doing multiple grapples in a round). Anyway, by RAW, since each "Grapple Attack" is considered an attack, and since it has 8 tentacles and 8 attacks per round, it seems logical that each attack with each of its tentacles constitutes 1 grapple check, therefore, 1 constrict attack per round, per tentacle. The Octopus could not, however, make 8 constrict attacks against ONE opponent it has grappled in one tentacle... it would need to make a separate grapple attempt with each tentacle on that same creature in a Full-attack action to do that.
tarkin 06-25-07, 06:02 PM	The Octopus is not amphibious, but that is irrelevant to the discussion. Do you have something agaisnt undersea campaigns? Do you not believe in the right to cast AirBreathing spell, despite the existence of a WaterBreathing?
Pentar 06-25-07, 06:05 PM	The Octopus is not amphibious, but that is irrelevant to the discussion. Do you have something agaisnt undersea campaigns? Do you not believe in the right to cast AirBreathing spell, despite the existence of a WaterBreathing? Well, the only reason I say the Octopus is amphibious is because it has a land movement value (20'). This indicates to me that it is capable of moving on land (and at a surprisingly fast rate). Now, I don't know if that means it can breath on land, true enough... it does have the Aquatic sub-type, which would indicate "No"...
SALDAR 06-25-07, 07:06 PM	It would be the latter. Once you make a successful grapple check against an opponent you are considered to be grappling. While grappling there is an Attack Your Opponent option but you cannot use multiple weapons with it, not even natural weapons, so an octopus would not be able to use its other seven tentacles to attack or make grapple checks against its opponent. So it would only be able to make a single grapple check against that grappled opponent each round using the one tentacle, getting the tentacle and constrict damage if it wins, and would not be able to use its other tentacles against that opponent. If it wants to use its other tentacles against other opponents it would take a -20 on the grapple checks with the already grappled opponent. If it does not take the -20 option then all it can do is make that single grapple check. I believe the Rules of the Game article introduced an option to let creatures using natural weapons to make a number of grapple checks per round based on their BAB just like characters do. This is what my group does since the grappling rules are pretty much based on the number of attacks granted by BAB. A druid would have a maximum of 3 checks at 15th level and up. Octopi are aquatic but not amphibious so they would need to start making Constitution checks after ConX2 rounds to keep from suffocating, although, as tarkin pointed out, there are spells to help.
tyrecian 06-25-07, 07:40 PM	ahh yes, hello. As pentar stated this was hashed out in a post, where ironically i was the author and it did involve dragons. What we decided was that the multiple grapples against one target could only be done (meaning more damage than one grapple check) if the octopus had more than one itenerant (sp) attack. In other words if its base attack was +7, then it would be able to get a second grapple at +2. The other 7 arms would be in this case to help with the grapple, and so (i think) that if the beast was to grapple and use itenerative attacks it would not be able to use its other 7 natural attacks. Apparently one can either go one way or the other... Now i dunno about the -20 on successive attacks, never seen the rule. But i would say that the octopus could successfully grapple 8 people and attack each with one grapple check a round, just not use the 8 arms against one since a creature can only be grappled once (whether you are grappled by one tentacle or 14,785 you are still "grappled" and take natural damage). The negative 20 rule i know of is this: If you are grappling you dont threaten areas, but if you take a -20 on your grapple check and succeed you count as threatenning the space around you. Very helpful if you have a very high grapple (like a druid in bear (say 30 grapple) grappling a drow wizard (say around 5)) and your opponent doesnt, cause then you can also whack others that think they can move freely around you, that is only -20 rule i know. Ever played with an octopus? They are fun and squishy, and they wrap you up and sucker you... its kinda interesting sensation. I would say that if you want to throw the player a boon, allow him maybe a +4 circumstance bonus to his grapple for using all 8 arms against one opponent (not damage, mind) that way he can choose to attack multiple creatures, or just one really well. In that case the PC could use his itenaerative (sp) attacks and have the +4 for each. also i would like to know if the octopus grappling a fiend would make the fiend have to take drowning checks quicker than its consitution since its in melee and being screwed with. had a giant octo almost TPK us because our GM made us immediately start making saves (at -1 cumulative per drowning rules after each round) It sucked really bad cause drowning aint no joke. Druid shapeshifting into an octo is fun and all, but there is no freshwater derivative, so bear in mind that it can only happen in brackish water (maybe estuaries close to river mouths) and open sea, gulf or ocean. That is fairly restrictive. We had a sea elf we used a cart and several barrells full of brackish water to tote him around on land, but he was relatively small, a Giant Octopus would be testy at the best of circumstances... :) yes el ocopus grande is a great fiend for wildshape, but it also cuts out the ability to use spells in most cases, while the earlier poster spoke of air bubble, the octo would be needing serious concentration checks since it would be casting into the air it couldnt breathe, that would be DM call, i think. Also a casting octopus would need at least 2 of its 8 tentacles open for somatics, so make sure you dont grapple too many, hehe.
dirkformica 06-25-07, 08:01 PM	Just quickly looking at the base grappling rules on page 156 of the PHB, I'm wondering if there might be a wrinkle to exploit. You don't have to move on to step 4 of the grapple where you maintain a hold. If you get to step 3: Hold, you make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. Constrict only requires a successful grapple check to inflict damage. I don't see where it requires you to maintain the hold. So couldn't you just Attack, trigger Improved Grab, Win Grapple Check, Constrict, then let go as a free action instead of maintaining a hold, and then resume with your next attacks? (Please note: I have NOT read the Rules of the Game or other supplemental materials on grappling before posting this. I have only reviewed the core books.)
Elemmakil 06-25-07, 08:07 PM	In a grapple, you have 2 basic options: From the Glossary: A creature with this extraordinary special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability, it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab. Attack an opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. The big thing to note here is that this is not a grapple check, so constrict doesn't apply! Generally, the octopus could only get in one of these attacks. Obviously, this option is less than wonderful: only one attack and no constrict. (Taking -20 on the grapple check doesn't give it extra attacks against the grappled opponent, but it can use them outside of a grapple.) Damage an opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.The most important note here is that this is not a natural weapon! The rules for natural weapons do not apply. The octopus cannot attack with all 8 tentacles, but it can get two grapple checks to deal damage, at +15/+10, because it has +6 BAB (the key line here is "in place of an attack." Having natural weapons doesn't prevent it from using a full +6/+1 BAB routine, but using these weapons does because that invokes "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons"). Creatures with lots of natural weapons actually get gimped a bit by the grapple rules, although constrict can make up for that. Just for reference: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions. etc... If a creature with this special attack (extraordinary) hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent's weight. Hope that helps, and sorry for the length. -Elemmakil [Edit: responding to Dirkformica]I'm not sure that the 4 steps are optional: when you initiate a grapple, you might have to follow through with them all. I'm not sure, and I could see a DM ruling it either way. I'd say that you have to go through all 4 steps, except that you could intentionally fail the grapple check in step 3, which would be pointless. Once you do enter a grapple, you don't have any special way to end the grapple: one grapple must either incapacitate the other or try to escape, which is done "in the place of an attack."
spikevampire 06-25-07, 08:25 PM	i think that octopus taking -20 have 8 possibilities to grapple with a successful attack. rule says that it don't use big effort using -20 because it use only the limb or the part that he used for attack to mantain in grapple his enemy, so it could use all its 8 tentacles. Only my italian opinion i hope it will be clear
Pentar 06-25-07, 08:30 PM	Elemmakil, Ahhh! Interesting... Going over those rules, it does make sense... but it does seem to unfairly gimp creatures with natural weapons in a grapple. It almost doesn't make sense because technically, they can never make an "unarmed strike", since they're already considered armed with natural weapons!
Stormonu 06-25-07, 09:52 PM	Not an official ruling of any sort, but I'd have the octopus make up to 8 touch attacks. One tentacle on gives it a normal grapple check, each additional tentacle that hits gives it a +2 circumstance bonus to the grapple check (so if it hit with all eight, it'd make its grapple check with a +14 bonus on top of its normal bonus). Ouch. Of course, that also gets into, "Well what if my monk wants to use both arms?" Shrug either let them do it (which will wash out the bonus when the enemy uses both limbs as well) or only allow an extra grapple check per usuable limb past two...