The New Meat Shield [Archive] - Wizards Community

The New Meat Shield [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Leaflitter
08-14-07, 11:11 AM Meat Shield: Prerequisites- Improved Initiative
When within 5 feet of anyone you can choose to move in the way and take the damage. Doing so puts down your guard making resistances and damage reduction provided by armor or equipment useless. Ex. A town guard attacks Lidda, Regdar is next to her and steps in the way. The guard deals 5 damage to Regdar he still takes the damage despite having DR5/adamantine Heavy armor. This it treated as an immediate action and can be used 1+con modifier per encounter.

Special: A fighter may select Meat Shield as one of his fighter bonus feats

Improved Meat Shield: Prerequisites- Improved Initiative, Meat Shield, Str 13, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Fighter level 10.

When you are within 10 feet of anyone you can now move in and take the damage. You still let down your guard when moving resulting in the loss of resistance and damage reduction provided by armor or equipment. When within 5 feet of anyone you can now take opponents and either (1) shove them in the way of an attack to help an ally or (2) pull them in front of you to block the incoming attack. The opponent takes all the incoming damage. In the first situation the action is resolved as a bull rush because you are pushing them the distance. In the second action it is resolved as a grapple check because you are grabbing them and moving them into your space.

Special: a fighter may select Improved Meat Shield as one of his fighter bonus feats.

so i think this is much better :ayyyy!:
Dalthbar
08-14-07, 11:17 AM Isn't this basically a class ability of the Knight class?

I don't have my books on me and I'm not totally familiar with the class, but I believe it is.
Leaflitter
08-14-07, 01:37 PM this is not the knight ability!!!

If it were why would I make it?

Here are some differences

1. You don’t have to be a knight
2. You never block half of the damage (how the heck do you block half the damage any way)
3. When you get improved meat shield you use other people. as apposed to suddenly blocking all the damage.
4. with this you don’t need to designate an ally you can stop your barbarian from killing a defeated opponent so you can get information from him or save a civilian that get caught in the cross fire.

now I know there some similarities but give it a rest i know the ability and class and I think more people should be able the be heroic and block damage. And just to mention that there some people don’t want to play knights.
BlackFiend
08-14-07, 01:47 PM So this one feat is BETTER than the Class Ability of the Knight.

::waste can
Dalthbar
08-14-07, 02:04 PM So this one feat is BETTER than the Class Ability of the Knight.

::waste can

Exactly - feats should never make class abilities useless.

If they do, then your feat is overpowered.

There's not "Super Sneak Attack" feat that lets you do d8 sneak attack damage with no pre-reqs. If there was, why would you ever be a rogue?
StruckingFuggle
08-14-07, 10:45 PM Exactly - feats should never make class abilities useless. If they do, then your feat is overpowered.

Why can't fairly pointless, largely useless (except at two or three levels) classes be mined for the use of better classes? ... wouldn't the game be better served by taking a pointless class with a little bit to offer and making it's few decent abilities useful to classes that can actually, say, usefully use them?

Personally, I think that asking "what does this do to the game?" is a much better question than "what does this do to the knight?" ... Class abilities > feats, some class abilities seem like they really should just be feats (hello, Insightful Strike) - and some things, like Sneak Attack, can be good enough - situationally - that they should be 'controlled' by only being accessable as a class feature, whereas some class features still would be better served as feats.

That said, before tossing it in the rubbish bin or ignoring it, instead of dismissing it as similar to or better than the knight ability, is it too much to ask, asking "if this person or someone didn't have access to the PHBII, or if even the knight didn't exist, how would it be then?"

There's not "Super Sneak Attack" feat that lets you do d8 sneak attack damage with no pre-reqs. If there was, why would you ever be a rogue?

Skills (Hide, UMD...). Rogue abilities. Plenty of stuff to do other than sneak attack stuff...

(That said, how does Super Sneak Attack interact with Sneak Attack? Maybe people would play rogues with SSA.)

(also, there is a feat with one prereq to get 2d6 sneak attack...)
Dragom
08-15-07, 12:16 AM The Knight is what the Fighter should have been able to be.
Leaflitter
08-15-07, 08:27 AM knights by definition are to uppity. fighters give more range (at least to personality).

and StruckingFuggle very good point

also some feats are class abilities
like weapon fineness, bonus feat, endurance, and im sure you can find many more.

so what my point for this feat was, was to make a feat for people who don’t have access to the knight class (such as my self). so stop bickering about how "ooo this is better then the knight feat duduida" and critique the effin feat separately.

stupid nit pickers
Dalthbar
08-15-07, 08:46 AM so what my point for this feat was, was to make a feat for people who don’t have access to the knight class (such as my self). so stop bickering about how "ooo this is better then the knight feat duduida" and critique the effin feat separately.

stupid nit pickers
You're asking for feedback. You're getting feedback - you're just not happy with it because it's not what you wanted to hear.

One of the primary litmus tests for a feat is to compare it to other abilities - especially class abilities. If you've made something that's more powerful than a class ability than it's probably too powerful or needs more pre-reqs. You can't just "critique it separately" because all feats need to be critiqued in the context of the game as a whole.

At the end of the day, you can hack apart the system all you want. But if you ask for feedback, expect feedback. Not all of it will be what you want to hear - but this is basically how we look at all homebrew feats that get brought up.
Leaflitter
08-15-07, 10:19 AM all your saying is that there is another feat that is like it that is not feed back that is observation. feed back involves giving hints on how to improve the feat and make it fit the rules.
Dalthbar
08-15-07, 10:34 AM What I'm saying is that feats that emulate class abilities are usually overpowered (feedback). I'm also saying that you should stay away from feats that emulate core class abilities because it neuters those classes (feedback).

In addition to that, the fact that you turned around and made the feat even more powerful than that class's ability simply reinforces the fact that it's overpowered.

My opinion is that you should either scrap the feat, reduce it's power significantly (making it less powerful than the class ability it's nerfing) or give it some substantial pre-reqs.

Additionally, the feat is broken in the sense that you're giving free 5' steps at no real cost. The improved feat is even more broken - given 10' steps - because this will allow something like Skirmish to trigger. I'm sure many scout builds could totally abuse a feat like this all day long.

At the very least, you need to add language to the effect of "you can not use this effect if you're not allowed to take a 5' step this turn and using this ability counts as taking your 5' step".

Also, for the improved version, you should add language to the effect of "you can not use this effect if you're not allowed to take a 5' step this turn and using this ability counts as taking your 5' step for all your turn. for all abilities that trigger off of distance traveled, using this effect only counts as having taken a 5' step".
Grogmir
08-15-07, 10:46 AM Don’t like the feat… Strange mix of abilities I.e.. there are armour feats that give you DR but this takes it away. Why? What’s the thinking? If my Armour gives 5 DR then why would taking the blow remove it?

I would make it you give your ally % chance to hit you instead. A bit like concealment but they are behind you.

At higher levels it’s next to useless as you really need DR. Plus ‘Meat Shield’ as a name? really?

The whole ‘feat’ needs to be seriously looked at again.

I would put the Feat, this thread and Leaflitter’s attitude where Blackfiend suggested, in the Rubbish bin.

Grogmir.
Sir_Chivalry
08-15-07, 11:01 AM I completely agree with Dalthbar. You can't ask for feedback and then complain when you work is torn apart. A shoddy house that falls down can't be blamed on the people who point out the failure. It's blamed on the builder.
Leaflitter
08-15-07, 11:37 AM sorry i just wanted this to work...my apologies

i guess i just dont know the rules well enuff to make a feat.
Grogmir
08-15-07, 11:43 AM Leaflitter,

Don’t get knocked back… You’ve just joined. Have a peak at the CO boards and then you’ll realise like 99% of us here that we hardly know the rules at all.

Practice makes perfect so take the adviceon board – go back to the drawing board and have another go. Whatever you do don’t just give up!

A belated welcome to the Boards! :tiphat:

Grogmir.
Leaflitter
08-18-07, 08:37 AM ALL RIGHT!!!:w00t:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Leaflitter 08-14-07, 11:11 AM	Meat Shield: Prerequisites- Improved Initiative When within 5 feet of anyone you can choose to move in the way and take the damage. Doing so puts down your guard making resistances and damage reduction provided by armor or equipment useless. Ex. A town guard attacks Lidda, Regdar is next to her and steps in the way. The guard deals 5 damage to Regdar he still takes the damage despite having DR5/adamantine Heavy armor. This it treated as an immediate action and can be used 1+con modifier per encounter. Special: A fighter may select Meat Shield as one of his fighter bonus feats Improved Meat Shield: Prerequisites- Improved Initiative, Meat Shield, Str 13, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Fighter level 10. When you are within 10 feet of anyone you can now move in and take the damage. You still let down your guard when moving resulting in the loss of resistance and damage reduction provided by armor or equipment. When within 5 feet of anyone you can now take opponents and either (1) shove them in the way of an attack to help an ally or (2) pull them in front of you to block the incoming attack. The opponent takes all the incoming damage. In the first situation the action is resolved as a bull rush because you are pushing them the distance. In the second action it is resolved as a grapple check because you are grabbing them and moving them into your space. Special: a fighter may select Improved Meat Shield as one of his fighter bonus feats. so i think this is much better :ayyyy!:
Dalthbar 08-14-07, 11:17 AM	Isn't this basically a class ability of the Knight class? I don't have my books on me and I'm not totally familiar with the class, but I believe it is.
Leaflitter 08-14-07, 01:37 PM	this is not the knight ability!!! If it were why would I make it? Here are some differences 1. You don’t have to be a knight 2. You never block half of the damage (how the heck do you block half the damage any way) 3. When you get improved meat shield you use other people. as apposed to suddenly blocking all the damage. 4. with this you don’t need to designate an ally you can stop your barbarian from killing a defeated opponent so you can get information from him or save a civilian that get caught in the cross fire. now I know there some similarities but give it a rest i know the ability and class and I think more people should be able the be heroic and block damage. And just to mention that there some people don’t want to play knights.
BlackFiend 08-14-07, 01:47 PM	So this one feat is BETTER than the Class Ability of the Knight. ::waste can
Dalthbar 08-14-07, 02:04 PM	So this one feat is BETTER than the Class Ability of the Knight. ::waste can Exactly - feats should never make class abilities useless. If they do, then your feat is overpowered. There's not "Super Sneak Attack" feat that lets you do d8 sneak attack damage with no pre-reqs. If there was, why would you ever be a rogue?
StruckingFuggle 08-14-07, 10:45 PM	Exactly - feats should never make class abilities useless. If they do, then your feat is overpowered. Why can't fairly pointless, largely useless (except at two or three levels) classes be mined for the use of better classes? ... wouldn't the game be better served by taking a pointless class with a little bit to offer and making it's few decent abilities useful to classes that can actually, say, usefully use them? Personally, I think that asking "what does this do to the game?" is a much better question than "what does this do to the knight?" ... Class abilities > feats, some class abilities seem like they really should just be feats (hello, Insightful Strike) - and some things, like Sneak Attack, can be good enough - situationally - that they should be 'controlled' by only being accessable as a class feature, whereas some class features still would be better served as feats. That said, before tossing it in the rubbish bin or ignoring it, instead of dismissing it as similar to or better than the knight ability, is it too much to ask, asking "if this person or someone didn't have access to the PHBII, or if even the knight didn't exist, how would it be then?" There's not "Super Sneak Attack" feat that lets you do d8 sneak attack damage with no pre-reqs. If there was, why would you ever be a rogue? Skills (Hide, UMD...). Rogue abilities. Plenty of stuff to do other than sneak attack stuff... (That said, how does Super Sneak Attack interact with Sneak Attack? Maybe people would play rogues with SSA.) (also, there is a feat with one prereq to get 2d6 sneak attack...)
Dragom 08-15-07, 12:16 AM	The Knight is what the Fighter should have been able to be.
Leaflitter 08-15-07, 08:27 AM	knights by definition are to uppity. fighters give more range (at least to personality). and StruckingFuggle very good point also some feats are class abilities like weapon fineness, bonus feat, endurance, and im sure you can find many more. so what my point for this feat was, was to make a feat for people who don’t have access to the knight class (such as my self). so stop bickering about how "ooo this is better then the knight feat duduida" and critique the effin feat separately. stupid nit pickers
Dalthbar 08-15-07, 08:46 AM	so what my point for this feat was, was to make a feat for people who don’t have access to the knight class (such as my self). so stop bickering about how "ooo this is better then the knight feat duduida" and critique the effin feat separately. stupid nit pickers You're asking for feedback. You're getting feedback - you're just not happy with it because it's not what you wanted to hear. One of the primary litmus tests for a feat is to compare it to other abilities - especially class abilities. If you've made something that's more powerful than a class ability than it's probably too powerful or needs more pre-reqs. You can't just "critique it separately" because all feats need to be critiqued in the context of the game as a whole. At the end of the day, you can hack apart the system all you want. But if you ask for feedback, expect feedback. Not all of it will be what you want to hear - but this is basically how we look at all homebrew feats that get brought up.
Leaflitter 08-15-07, 10:19 AM	all your saying is that there is another feat that is like it that is not feed back that is observation. feed back involves giving hints on how to improve the feat and make it fit the rules.
Dalthbar 08-15-07, 10:34 AM	What I'm saying is that feats that emulate class abilities are usually overpowered (feedback). I'm also saying that you should stay away from feats that emulate core class abilities because it neuters those classes (feedback). In addition to that, the fact that you turned around and made the feat even more powerful than that class's ability simply reinforces the fact that it's overpowered. My opinion is that you should either scrap the feat, reduce it's power significantly (making it less powerful than the class ability it's nerfing) or give it some substantial pre-reqs. Additionally, the feat is broken in the sense that you're giving free 5' steps at no real cost. The improved feat is even more broken - given 10' steps - because this will allow something like Skirmish to trigger. I'm sure many scout builds could totally abuse a feat like this all day long. At the very least, you need to add language to the effect of "you can not use this effect if you're not allowed to take a 5' step this turn and using this ability counts as taking your 5' step". Also, for the improved version, you should add language to the effect of "you can not use this effect if you're not allowed to take a 5' step this turn and using this ability counts as taking your 5' step for all your turn. for all abilities that trigger off of distance traveled, using this effect only counts as having taken a 5' step".
Grogmir 08-15-07, 10:46 AM	Don’t like the feat… Strange mix of abilities I.e.. there are armour feats that give you DR but this takes it away. Why? What’s the thinking? If my Armour gives 5 DR then why would taking the blow remove it? I would make it you give your ally % chance to hit you instead. A bit like concealment but they are behind you. At higher levels it’s next to useless as you really need DR. Plus ‘Meat Shield’ as a name? really? The whole ‘feat’ needs to be seriously looked at again. I would put the Feat, this thread and Leaflitter’s attitude where Blackfiend suggested, in the Rubbish bin. Grogmir.
Sir_Chivalry 08-15-07, 11:01 AM	I completely agree with Dalthbar. You can't ask for feedback and then complain when you work is torn apart. A shoddy house that falls down can't be blamed on the people who point out the failure. It's blamed on the builder.
Leaflitter 08-15-07, 11:37 AM	sorry i just wanted this to work...my apologies i guess i just dont know the rules well enuff to make a feat.
Grogmir 08-15-07, 11:43 AM	Leaflitter, Don’t get knocked back… You’ve just joined. Have a peak at the CO boards and then you’ll realise like 99% of us here that we hardly know the rules at all. Practice makes perfect so take the adviceon board – go back to the drawing board and have another go. Whatever you do don’t just give up! A belated welcome to the Boards! :tiphat: Grogmir.
Leaflitter 08-18-07, 08:37 AM	ALL RIGHT!!!:w00t: