The two schools of VoP [Archive] - Wizards Community

The two schools of VoP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Realms of Chaos
10-28-07, 12:18 AM I have noticed, over time, that there are two schools of thought involving Vow of Poverty.

1. Stay with the spirit of the feat.
2. Stay with the exact wording of the feat.

At the same time, there are two groups of questions asked on the boards involving the limitations of Vow of Poverty.

1. Can I do XXX and get around the limitations of VoP.
2. Does it really go against the spirit of VoP if I own XXX.

What I find really weird, and what I need your help understanding, is the following.

Whenever a type 1 question gets asked, group 1 people immediately chastise them while group 2 people remain quiet, even if the exact wording of the feat does favor them.
At the same time, whenever a type 2 question is asked, group 2 people chastise them while group 1 people remain quiet, even if it is going with the spirit of the feat.

What in the world is with this disparity?
runestar
10-28-07, 12:40 AM The sage has this to say about VOP.

The Vow of Poverty feat (Book of Exalted Deeds p.48) very clearly states that you may not own or use any material possessions, with exceptions listed in the feat’s description.

The Sage strongly suggests that if you’re trying to find ways around the various Vow feats in BoED, you may be missing the point of the feats. (The book doesn’t bear the mature audiences warning just for subject matter, but also for approach to character creation.) These feats are intended to open up interesting roleplaying opportunities without unduly punishing a character’s playability.

In the case of the Vow of Poverty, the intent is to allow what would otherwise be a severely underpowered character (one without possessions) to retain viability in the game. Finding ways to retain one’s possessions while still benefiting from the feat defeats the entire purpose of the feat!

However, I feel that this does not necessarily mean that you are not allowed to question the boundaries of said feat, and must always adhere to the strictest interpretation possible. Rather, it is because the limitations are so vague (and sometimes downright unreasonable), that you end up having to constantly question the limits of said feat ever so frequently.

This is because different people may have different expectations of how "charitable" they need to be. Where do you draw the line? Are you expected to donate your internal organs as well if someone asks you for them? What about letting a starving eagle feast on your flesh?

Each side is not wrong, but I feel that either extreme is equally undoable. To make sure that you are not unknowingly thrust into in-game scenarios which lead you to lose your exalted status (because your DM's definition of exalted may be very much different from yours), it is best to iron things out with him, and standardize the code of conduct you are expected to adhere to.

This in part, means having to come up with every conceivable situation involving VOP and running them through your DM, to see if he is okay with it or not.:)
Jaxgaret
10-28-07, 03:40 AM Can you possibly post links to threads where you've seen this disparity?
Realms of Chaos
10-28-07, 12:36 PM Well, as an example of when someone wants to bypass the restrictions, look at the question that the sage quote was in reply to (someone trying to get away with using a legacy weapon, if you can believe it). As far as people who actually have ways around VoP, I find very few, although whenever someone claims that their Monk or gesalt binder/incarnate with VoP is boss, I'm pretty sure that someone makes it a point to show them that taking the vow of poverty was made so that you could actually sacrifice something.

On the other hand, I have seen far too many threads on the DM help thread about "how to give my VoP player an item to protect them from a curse without taking away their vow of poverty".

Wait a moment. I am an idot who has just answered their own question. The bypass guy is too immature to talk about VoP and the second guy is trying to find some way to accomplish a desired effect without bending the rules (which he/she is entirely in charge of) too badly.

There is no disparity. Huzzah. Huzzah. :king:
Jaxgaret
10-28-07, 03:56 PM There is no disparity. Huzzah. Huzzah. :king:

Glad I could help :)
bfiggins
10-28-07, 07:53 PM My character has a Vow of Poverty, and my GM had to FORCE me into a situation to give me a magic item :P We helped a church, and they gave us a sort of symbol of credit, for the explicit purpose of equipping to fight the undead. Our GM made it clear that if I tried to give away the goods I purchased with the credit, the church would just repossess them, AND they'd be angry with us. (Yeah, it's that kind of D&D church.) I finally got magic tattoos (from the Create Magic Tattoo spell) with Permanency. (Normally not allowed, but it was kind of a special case my GM allowed.)
runestar
10-28-07, 09:29 PM Wait a moment. I am an idot who has just answered their own question. The bypass guy is too immature to talk about VoP and the second guy is trying to find some way to accomplish a desired effect without bending the rules (which he/she is entirely in charge of) too badly.

I beg to differ.

It might be blatantly obvious in the scenario, but there are plenty of other situations where the line is very grey about what violates the VOP requirements. One man's powergaming may be another man's honest attempt at discerning just what works with VOP and what does not.

After all, it is his character which is supposed to be exalted, not the player himself.

For example, does the adamantine body feat of a warforged violate VOP? You will be surprised as to how divided opinions are.

What about grafts? A soulknife's mindblade?

This are serious issues which should be ironed out without the player having to feel like he will be crucified for asking.:)
elonin
10-29-07, 10:31 PM The example of the soul knife's mind blade isn't an item. There are classes that do better with VOP such as monk or druid.
Realms of Chaos
10-30-07, 07:43 PM Yay.

I knew that I was talking about something (although my memory is a bit poor to give examples).

I don't think that I quite caught upon the real question, however. I wander what it is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Realms of Chaos 10-28-07, 12:18 AM	I have noticed, over time, that there are two schools of thought involving Vow of Poverty. 1. Stay with the spirit of the feat. 2. Stay with the exact wording of the feat. At the same time, there are two groups of questions asked on the boards involving the limitations of Vow of Poverty. 1. Can I do XXX and get around the limitations of VoP. 2. Does it really go against the spirit of VoP if I own XXX. What I find really weird, and what I need your help understanding, is the following. Whenever a type 1 question gets asked, group 1 people immediately chastise them while group 2 people remain quiet, even if the exact wording of the feat does favor them. At the same time, whenever a type 2 question is asked, group 2 people chastise them while group 1 people remain quiet, even if it is going with the spirit of the feat. What in the world is with this disparity?
runestar 10-28-07, 12:40 AM	The sage has this to say about VOP. The Vow of Poverty feat (Book of Exalted Deeds p.48) very clearly states that you may not own or use any material possessions, with exceptions listed in the feat’s description. The Sage strongly suggests that if you’re trying to find ways around the various Vow feats in BoED, you may be missing the point of the feats. (The book doesn’t bear the mature audiences warning just for subject matter, but also for approach to character creation.) These feats are intended to open up interesting roleplaying opportunities without unduly punishing a character’s playability. In the case of the Vow of Poverty, the intent is to allow what would otherwise be a severely underpowered character (one without possessions) to retain viability in the game. Finding ways to retain one’s possessions while still benefiting from the feat defeats the entire purpose of the feat! However, I feel that this does not necessarily mean that you are not allowed to question the boundaries of said feat, and must always adhere to the strictest interpretation possible. Rather, it is because the limitations are so vague (and sometimes downright unreasonable), that you end up having to constantly question the limits of said feat ever so frequently. This is because different people may have different expectations of how "charitable" they need to be. Where do you draw the line? Are you expected to donate your internal organs as well if someone asks you for them? What about letting a starving eagle feast on your flesh? Each side is not wrong, but I feel that either extreme is equally undoable. To make sure that you are not unknowingly thrust into in-game scenarios which lead you to lose your exalted status (because your DM's definition of exalted may be very much different from yours), it is best to iron things out with him, and standardize the code of conduct you are expected to adhere to. This in part, means having to come up with every conceivable situation involving VOP and running them through your DM, to see if he is okay with it or not.:)
Jaxgaret 10-28-07, 03:40 AM	Can you possibly post links to threads where you've seen this disparity?
Realms of Chaos 10-28-07, 12:36 PM	Well, as an example of when someone wants to bypass the restrictions, look at the question that the sage quote was in reply to (someone trying to get away with using a legacy weapon, if you can believe it). As far as people who actually have ways around VoP, I find very few, although whenever someone claims that their Monk or gesalt binder/incarnate with VoP is boss, I'm pretty sure that someone makes it a point to show them that taking the vow of poverty was made so that you could actually sacrifice something. On the other hand, I have seen far too many threads on the DM help thread about "how to give my VoP player an item to protect them from a curse without taking away their vow of poverty". Wait a moment. I am an idot who has just answered their own question. The bypass guy is too immature to talk about VoP and the second guy is trying to find some way to accomplish a desired effect without bending the rules (which he/she is entirely in charge of) too badly. There is no disparity. Huzzah. Huzzah. :king:
Jaxgaret 10-28-07, 03:56 PM	There is no disparity. Huzzah. Huzzah. :king: Glad I could help :)
bfiggins 10-28-07, 07:53 PM	My character has a Vow of Poverty, and my GM had to FORCE me into a situation to give me a magic item :P We helped a church, and they gave us a sort of symbol of credit, for the explicit purpose of equipping to fight the undead. Our GM made it clear that if I tried to give away the goods I purchased with the credit, the church would just repossess them, AND they'd be angry with us. (Yeah, it's that kind of D&D church.) I finally got magic tattoos (from the Create Magic Tattoo spell) with Permanency. (Normally not allowed, but it was kind of a special case my GM allowed.)
runestar 10-28-07, 09:29 PM	Wait a moment. I am an idot who has just answered their own question. The bypass guy is too immature to talk about VoP and the second guy is trying to find some way to accomplish a desired effect without bending the rules (which he/she is entirely in charge of) too badly. I beg to differ. It might be blatantly obvious in the scenario, but there are plenty of other situations where the line is very grey about what violates the VOP requirements. One man's powergaming may be another man's honest attempt at discerning just what works with VOP and what does not. After all, it is his character which is supposed to be exalted, not the player himself. For example, does the adamantine body feat of a warforged violate VOP? You will be surprised as to how divided opinions are. What about grafts? A soulknife's mindblade? This are serious issues which should be ironed out without the player having to feel like he will be crucified for asking.:)
elonin 10-29-07, 10:31 PM	The example of the soul knife's mind blade isn't an item. There are classes that do better with VOP such as monk or druid.
Realms of Chaos 10-30-07, 07:43 PM	Yay. I knew that I was talking about something (although my memory is a bit poor to give examples). I don't think that I quite caught upon the real question, however. I wander what it is.